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Last game session my SM Librarian used Gate of Infinity on himself and a Sternguard squad, and suffered a mishap as the result of a scatter roll that sent them within 1" of an enemy unit. The roll (5-6) resulted in the Delayed mishap, which for a unit coming out of reserve, means that they simply do not deploy, but how does this work for a unit that is already in play? My opponent and I agreed to simply re-roll the scatter on the same location the following turn, and barring additional mishaps, allow them to deploy normally.

I'm not sure if there is a rule for this anywhere, or if not how others have handled it...

gate of infinity puts them into reserves and deepstrikes them... meaning if they mishap into delayed... they just wait and come back next turn i'd think...

Dr. Ew wrote:Last game session my SM Librarian used Gate of Infinity on himself and a Sternguard squad, and suffered a mishap as the result of a scatter roll that sent them within 1" of an enemy unit. The roll (5-6) resulted in the Delayed mishap, which for a unit coming out of reserve, means that they simply do not deploy, but how does this work for a unit that is already in play? My opponent and I agreed to simply re-roll the scatter on the same location the following turn, and barring additional mishaps, allow them to deploy normally.

I'm not sure if there is a rule for this anywhere, or if not how others have handled it...

They get placed into reserves, and arrive as normal reserves do.

They do NOT arrive via Deep Strike when they arrive again.

Gwar! wrote:

Dr. Ew wrote:Last game session my SM Librarian used Gate of Infinity on himself and a Sternguard squad, and suffered a mishap as the result of a scatter roll that sent them within 1" of an enemy unit. The roll (5-6) resulted in the Delayed mishap, which for a unit coming out of reserve, means that they simply do not deploy, but how does this work for a unit that is already in play? My opponent and I agreed to simply re-roll the scatter on the same location the following turn, and barring additional mishaps, allow them to deploy normally.

I'm not sure if there is a rule for this anywhere, or if not how others have handled it...

They get placed into reserves, and arrive as normal reserves do.

They do NOT arrive via Deep Strike when they arrive again.

Where can I find this in the rules? I do not see anything about not deepstriking again after a mishap in the table or text. If I am just missing it, can you please cite the page # for me?

Dr. Ew wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Dr. Ew wrote:Last game session my SM Librarian used Gate of Infinity on himself and a Sternguard squad, and suffered a mishap as the result of a scatter roll that sent them within 1" of an enemy unit. The roll (5-6) resulted in the Delayed mishap, which for a unit coming out of reserve, means that they simply do not deploy, but how does this work for a unit that is already in play? My opponent and I agreed to simply re-roll the scatter on the same location the following turn, and barring additional mishaps, allow them to deploy normally.

I'm not sure if there is a rule for this anywhere, or if not how others have handled it...

They get placed into reserves, and arrive as normal reserves do.

They do NOT arrive via Deep Strike when they arrive again.

Where can I find this in the rules? I do not see anything about not deepstriking again after a mishap in the table or text. If I am just missing it, can you please cite the page # for me?

You don't need to find something saying you don't deep strike.

You need to find something that says they DO deep strike again.

Why wouldn't they?

Because the power says they are placed into reserves and they are alowed to deep strike the turn they go into reserves... But.. if they are delayed the power is no longer effecting them and they arrive via normal reserves

I don't think the power does say that they are placed in reserves. I see:

"The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back ... using the deep strike rules (C:SM:57)"

The deep strike mishap table does indeed state that they are "placed back in reserve," so I can understand the literal interpretation of that effect. However, because the unit did not originate from reserves, it seems like in the spirit of the "Delayed" mishap, the effect would be a delay of the teleportation, or even the failure of the power to work at all (a similar delay), not the relocation of the unit into reserves.

Also, to open a whole other can of worms, we were using a mission from the Battle Missions book that disallowed reserves...

Dr. Ew wrote:I don't think the power does say that they are placed in reserves. I see:

"The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed(in reserves and are re deployed on the table) using the deep strike rules (C:SM:57)"

The deep strike mishap table does indeed state that they are "placed back in reserve," so I can understand your literal interpretation of that effect. However, because the unit did not originate from reserves, it seems like in the spirit of the "Delayed" mishap, the effect would be a delay of the teleportation, or even the failure of the power to work at all (a similar delay), not the relocation of the unit into reserves.

Also, to open a whole other can of worms, we were using a mission from the Battle Missions book that disallowed reserves...

The bold is my fixing of your quote. and that says they are placed in reserves.. go re read the rule. and the only unit that can use deepstrie reguardless of mission.. are terminators..

Lord_Ghazghkull wrote:

Dr. Ew wrote:I don't think the power does say that they are placed in reserves. I see:

"The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back (in reserves and are placed back on the table) using the deep strike rules (C:SM:57)"

The deep strike mishap table does indeed state that they are "placed back in reserve," so I can understand your literal interpretation of that effect. However, because the unit did not originate from reserves, it seems like in the spirit of the "Delayed" mishap, the effect would be a delay of the teleportation, or even the failure of the power to work at all (a similar delay), not the relocation of the unit into reserves.

Also, to open a whole other can of worms, we were using a mission from the Battle Missions book that disallowed reserves...

Ok...

It actually says "... immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules (C:SM:57)" nowhere under the description of Gate of Infinity is there any mention of reserves.

No, GoI doesn't mention reserves at all...

Seriously, read the rules before commenting!

You are correct that under the Gate of Infinity rule, it does not make any mention of reserves.

However, it does tell you to use the deep strike rules. And under the deep strike rules when you suffer a mishap and roll a 5-6, you are put into reserves.

So the methodology would be,

1. Gate of Infinity rules in effect.
2. Deep Strike rules in effect
3. Mishap rules in effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and my Space Wolves can deep strike via drop pods, whenever they like, despite the mission.

So they teleport, mishap, re-materialise back at home and have to foot-slog back to the battle? Couldn't make it up...

EDIT:

Brother Ramses wrote:Oh and my Space Wolves can deep strike via drop pods, whenever they like, despite the mission.

If the above is true and they still had their pod in reserves due to deploying separately and were placed back into reserves, they could then arrive back in the pod, right?

No, as you declare how units are going to arrive as part of deployment - and at deployment the unit was not eligible to join the drop pod.

Think of going back into reserves as a really, realy badly of course Libby - so bad the rest of the unit decided to walk rather than trust a trip through the warp again...

It's not clear either way but we (my FLGS) play it as they deepstrike back into play. We do the same thing with Veil of Darkness.

I don't think they can deepstrike from reserves unless that is specially pointed out in their rules. They would, if the power had worked, been relocated using deepstrike rules, but they don't get 'given' deepstrike by a power that didn't work right. They are just in reserves and treated accordingly. Had he cast it on some innately deepstriking unit and failed, they also go into reserves, and can deepstrike on their own ability.

I guess I will only use the power with deep striking units (Terminator Librarian and squad), that will avoid the issue of having to run back across the board.

... then again, according to a strict observance of the rules, if you don't declare your deep strike during deployment you still shouldn't be able to use that special rule (I'm looking at AoBR rule book, page 94).

Also, in the case of the particular game I was playing, I was not allowed to use reserves, so I'm not sure what I would have done from there - to simply say that the unit was destroyed, as is the case if rolled on turn 5 or later seems a bit harsh, and NOT a literal interpretation of the rules...

Frankly I am dissatisfied by the whole "back" in reserves thing. I understand the chain of logic that leads to that conclusion, and I don't dispute it if there are no other rules written for such eventualities, but the idea of my Librarian's psychic power suffering a mechanical failure that sends them into reserves from active play does not sit well with me. I tend to lean toward the "spirit" of the law, rather than a slavish adherence to the specific written words, as a result I would interpret the roll to result in a delay of the teleportation, that would at the worst send them back to their point of origin, just as a mishap from reserves sends the unit back into reserves.

I suppose that if it happens again, I'll just discuss it with my opponent and see what they think.

Nope, that doesn't necessarily fix the problem. Reason being, did that unit of termies with joined librarian start the game in Reserves and declared to be entering the game via Deep Strike? If your answer is no, guess what? They cannot enter the game from Reserves via Deep Strike.

don_mondo wrote:Nope, that doesn't necessarily fix the problem. Reason being, did that unit of termies with joined librarian start the game in Reserves and declared to be entering the game via Deep Strike? If your answer is no, guess what? They cannot enter the game from Reserves via Deep Strike.

I know. I addressed that in the post you quoted from...

My bad, responded too quickly, I guess.

don_mondo wrote:My bad, responded too quickly, I guess.

No problem, I'm not trying to be some snarky forum dick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

General_Chaos wrote:It's not clear either way but we (my FLGS) play it as they deepstrike back into play. We do the same thing with Veil of Darkness.

I'm glad someone interpreted the rule as I do. We ended up delaying the units arrival for a turn, and rolling a new scatter on the same location (my opponents suggestion). Neither one of us thought going into reserves really made sense.

If they were declared to come in deep striking, then they come in deepstriking. If they go back into reserves, then they come in how they are supposed to. It doesn't seem complicated.

When deepstrike does work and a wad of termies lands right next to you and opens fire with asscannons nobody thinks it's a 'bit harsh'. When they screw it up it is? My brother once lost an entire squad of crisis suits trying to deepstrike too close and blammo... all gone... too bad. He didn't complain, it was a risk he understood he had chosen to take.

Deepstrike is supposed to be a risky move (why I hate drop pods) that either gives you a huge advantage or a total fail. I think that was the 'spirit' of the rules in the first place.

@ Gutardian: What you say is true. As for the loss of the unit, I do not think it is harsh after turn 5, or if you roll a 1-2. I was waxing melancholic on what to do before turn 5, on a roll of 5-6, in a no reserve game when something like that happens, as was the case in my circumstance. I'll try to be more specific to avoid confusion.

I think your caught up with the battle mission saying you cannot use reserves. If your GoI unit was sent to reserves, you are not using reserves.

When you started the game, you could not declare anything be held in reserves, blam, you followed the rules for deployment for that mission. Something gets sent to reserves, you are not using reserves as a means of deployment, something was just sent there as a matter of a game mechanic.

This would be a csase of specific > general - the battle missions prevented you declaring reserves, however you did not declare - the rulebook forced you into doing so with a specific MUST clause.

If the ENTIRE unit is capable of deepstriking then it may re-enter play via deepstrike, if the unit would not normally be eligible to deepstrike then it may not as the gate of infinity power is no longer in effect.

Aftersong wrote:If the ENTIRE unit is capable of deepstriking then it may re-enter play via deepstrike, if the unit would not normally be eligible to deepstrike then it may not as the gate of infinity power is no longer in effect.

Reread the rules in the back for Reserves. Holding a unit in Reserve does not mean you can choose to walk in off a table edge or DS when it becomes available. You need to declare what it is doing at the start of the game.

calypso2ts wrote:

Aftersong wrote:If the ENTIRE unit is capable of deepstriking then it may re-enter play via deepstrike, if the unit would not normally be eligible to deepstrike then it may not as the gate of infinity power is no longer in effect.

Reread the rules in the back for Reserves. Holding a unit in Reserve does not mean you can choose to walk in off a table edge or DS when it becomes available. You need to declare what it is doing at the start of the game.

I can see your argument however, couldn't it also be viewed that you need to declare their method of arrival when placing them in reserve and thus could do so after the mishap?

Yes, and YOU can only place them in Reserves before the game starts. Them being forced into Reserves due to a mishap is not you placing them into Reserves.

Just want to point out that when they become available from reserves the Librarian can use the power again as soon as it is legal to move them where you want. So they won't have to foot slog if you don't want them to.