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In recent threads, I have seen a lot of hate, even outright dismissal of Vanguard Veterans. I haven't seen them in any competitive lists, either. It seems to me that this hate comes from the unit being dismissed as sub-optimal. My problem is that a lot of the players who are doing this dismissing, are the same ones whose posts I read and wonder if they've ever played a game of 40k. It seems a simple mistake to judge units in black and white, but in reality, your TH/SS terminators won't win every game for you, and your land raiders will die sometimes. It's the nature of the game.

PLEASE NOTE: I do think that Vanguard are generally overcosted (especially the jump pack), but they still have value. That there are uses for Vanguard in a C:SM army is all I am trying to prove)

Now, here are the uses for Vanguard Vets that I've been toying with.

(1) Vets with jump packs, no more than 2 power weapons per 5, excluding sergeant
Heroic Intervention seems badly restricted to me. To counteract scatter, I think that Vanguard deserve a scatter reduction or fleet that turn. But unlike the BA, we can't count on that. So what can we use to make sure that our Vanguard come in at the right place? Locator beacons. With a locator beacon, Vanguard Vets become much more threatening. Rather than counting on a good scatter, you can actually plan out your assault for the maximum effectiveness. Now, where do we get locator beacons?
-Scout Bikers (usefulness very limited in my experience) To use Scout Bikers, you need to Turbo Boost, hope your Vanguards come in at the right time, and hope your opponent doesn't realize what you're doing and shoot the scout bikers to pieces. Not terribly reliable unless you want to spend points on 2 units
-Drop Pods. 10 points gets you a locator beacon.
Obviously, the more pods you use, the more effective this strategy is. Basically, try to get a decent spread of pods near your enemy's units that you're be interested in assault with the Vets. This works well with alpha strike suicide dreadnoughts, as few opponents will worry about the pod once the dreadnought is dead and the game carries on. I wouldn't count on just one pod, though. In a KP match it may be destroyed, or it may scatter badly.
In a full drop pod army, you will have plenty of beacons to choose from, and this will make it much easier to get the vets exactly where they're needed.

Pros:
-Vanguard appear out of nowhere, so if you do it right, your opponent won't get a chance to shoot them up first
-They can attack where you need them the most

Cons:
-Characters can't join them
-If you don't have the beacons, this method is essentially useless

(2) 10 Vanguard Vets w/o jump packs, same rule as to weapons
If Vanguard had free jump packs, they would probably be a common sight. Unfortunately, that is not the case, and each marine has to spend 10 points on a jump pack. What can we do about this? We can say "feth the jump packs" and save ourselves a hundred points. In this case, it would be beneficial to mount the vets in a rhino (meh) or a LRC/LRR (excellent). While this does cost more, you also gain the utility of a great tank, plus more reliability in getting them where they're needed. If you go the Land Raider route, I would consider running a cheap Chaplain as well. Consider that you would have 40 attacks on the charge from this squad, and the value of rerolls could be immense.

Pros:
-Vanguard w/o jump packs are cheaper, so you can buy more
-Characters can join, adding some extra punch
-No reliance on beacons or deep striking

Cons:
-Your opponent has time to shoot at the transport before it reaches his
-Transport will cost you a bit extra

A third use could be to infiltrate a squad with Shrike and a jump pack chaplain for a nasty attack early on, but I have little experience with Shrike.

Feel free to critique what I've written. I'd like to open up the Vanguard Vets for discussion in a way that we haven't seen lately. I feel that they can be an effective unit, if used properly.

I'm not sure I understand the arguement. For me, every unit in my army has to have a purpose. And the unit that fills that purpose has to be the best in the codex.

From that standpoint, what use are the Vanguard?

Granted, they are a hard hitting assault-unit, possibly even a small tank hunting unit (if kitted for that). If I run them with jump packs are there any alternatives that does the same job?

In my book, SM-bikers would do the job better and at a lower cost. No they wouldn't be able to deep strike in but with the turbo-boosting capability and added toughness they make up for it.

If I ran the vanguards without jump packs are there any better options for that then? Assault terminators would be my choice, first of they can access the land raider as a dedicated transport and thus saving your heavy slots for something else. Compare to a 5 man/ 2 power weapons Vanguard squad they run a measly 60 points more and for this they get better weapons and better armor (that 5+ inv save is sweet in a sticky situation).

The later option is clear for me but may not appeal to everybody and I can see the benefits of running a 10 man squad and charge out but then we're in an entierly different ball park when it comes to point.

That's my 2 cents

IMO Vanguard Veteran just do not deliver for the points they cost but it depends on your list and how the unit complements it. In 2000 pt armies Most people like Assault Terminators in either a LRR or LRC that is 500 points then you need at least 3 troops choices so 3 tac squads is about 750 pts kitted out with transports. Then they generally have a 200 (ish) point character. Let me see we are now up to 1450 pts. You now need a bit of tank hunting and support so a predator with sponsors and a dreadnaught in a drop pod about 300 more points. So now you have 250 points give or take to play with and this is where Vanguard fall down. You can fit in another HQ choice with a unit to support it (generally a Librarian) or you can take a small vanguard squad and a Chaplin both of whom are not great choices comptetitvely.

I realise I have over simplified a lot here but I believe the general principle is sound. In normal games 2000 (-) there is not really the room to justify the points.

Mad Rabbit wrote:In recent threads, I have seen a lot of hate, even outright dismissal of Vanguard Veterans. I haven't seen them in any competitive lists, either. It seems to me that this hate comes from the unit being dismissed as sub-optimal. My problem is that a lot of the players who are doing this dismissing, are the same ones whose posts I read and wonder if they've ever played a game of 40k.

One could also say that people dismissing Vanguards are people that have played more than a few games and doesnt go "whoh this is the bestest unit ever" because a unit manage to do something useful in one or two games.

See, I can dismiss other peoples opinions as crap by ad hominem as well. Yay for me...

The vanguard veterans are a better choice in a Blood Angels army compared to vanilla marines, because they only scatter D6" and can reroll the reinforcements dice. This mean that they more reliably can get within assault range when they arrive. The only problem is that they now have to compete with a lot of other specialized assault troops equipped with jump packs that have the same deepstrike capabilities. The Death Company are a bit more expensive with jump packs, but they have a better statline, furious charge, fearless and FNP, plus that you can field them with a chaplain/reclusiarch or Lemartes to make them really killy. Theres also the Sanguinary Guard, where each member come equipped with artificer armour, an angelus boltgun and a master crafted power sword for about the same price. You CAN field the vanguard vets in a land raider as a dedicated transport, but then the death company on foot would be cheaper and again have better stats. I know that you cannot directly control the death company, but with jump packs/landraider they can deepstrike where you want them and catch up with the units they want to kill, plus they have access to even more weapon options than the veterans do.

Of the uses you list for vanguard, there are other units that just do it better

In a land raider, assault termies give much better value for the pts than vanguard, so vanguard in LR is simply a waste

With shrike, they can work, but you could also just run with lots of infiltrating + fleeting assault termies, something that is just so much more scary

The last way to use them is probably the only way they can be unique, because no other unit in C:SM can deepstrike and assault. Of course, the fact that they can assault after deepstrike doesn't mean that they are the most devastating deepstriking unit out there. Their brothers in the sternguard would get my vote for deepstriking doom any day, and I would also rate any dreadnought in a pod as more effective too.


For BA, vanguard has somewhat more potential because of the decent of angels, but as Bonde said, they have quite a lot of competition. (although IMO, not from the DC)

It is sad, but vanguard is just a sub-par unit in C:SM. They are way too overcosted

Some units are just bad. Vanguard are too expensive and too fragile for the job that they're supposed to be doing. Let's face it, if you need to have a locator beacon near an opponent and have your reserves go off then you're talking about the Vanguards supplementing drop pod armies, or opponents who walk right into your cunning trap.

I don't think they're the unit I'd take for a drop pod army- Sternguard can't assault the turn they come down, but they can be scoring, and can pump out a lot of wounds on that first drop.They can be kitted to accomplish the same goal as the Vanguard and do it just as reliably with a drop pod. They don't need a locator beacon, and can mount an alpha strike of 10 plasma guns, meltas or flamers, or 20 bolter shots of various strengths and aps. And an alpha strike is what you're paying the outrageous jump pack points cost for.

And that's before you factor in the possibility of having them be accompanied by a character.

I'll admit that I haven't used Vanguard, or for that matter seen them be used. But I have used their predecessor, Zzagstrukk. You don't see him in many Ork lists for the very same reason- spending that many points on one probable charge is not worth it.Most players will run him once, or a few games. Then they realize that he is just not good.

You tell me what's wrong with this picture for 200 pts you can have five vanguard with +3 saves (sgt with LCs and vets with power weapons) or for 200 pts you can have five assault terminators with +2(+5) saves... I could set them up as TH/SS but you should get the idea


Fast Attack: Vanguard Veteran Squad (5#, 200 pts)
. . 1 Vanguard Veteran Squad @ 200 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Veteran; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics; Heroic Intervention)
. . . . 1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Lightning Claw; Lightning Claw; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics; Heroic Intervention)
. . . . 4 Veteran (Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Power Weapon x1)

Elite: Terminator Assault Squad (5#, 200 pts)
. . 4 Terminator Assault Squad @ 200 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Lightning Claws (pair) x4; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)
. . . . 1 Sergeant (Unit Type: Infantry; Lightning Claws (pair) x1; And They Shall Know No Fear; Combat Squads; Combat Tactics)

A unit of 10 vanguard veterans all with jump packs and storm shields, the sergeant with a glaive encarmine, a power fist, a thunder hammer, and the other seven with power weapons.an IC sanguinary priest is usually added to this too, and sanguinor fighting alongside the unit.


Its the highest priced unit I've ever seen, and I thought myself insane at first to field them as such, but in the last three games I played I fielded such a unit, and they easily made up their points cost.

Last match I played they lost two of their number to a defiler's battle cannon whilst advancing, but then they tore it open, moved on to wipe through a full group of plague marines, a full group of csm along with a terminator lord, and thenmopped up two half groups, one csm and onekhorne berserkers, that I had successfully bogged down with my tactical marines

You obviously know how to use them properly and they work for you. Good it is nice to hear a different opinion based on experience rather than speculation.

tedurur wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:In recent threads, I have seen a lot of hate, even outright dismissal of Vanguard Veterans. I haven't seen them in any competitive lists, either. It seems to me that this hate comes from the unit being dismissed as sub-optimal. My problem is that a lot of the players who are doing this dismissing, are the same ones whose posts I read and wonder if they've ever played a game of 40k.

One could also say that people dismissing Vanguards are people that have played more than a few games and doesnt go "whoh this is the bestest unit ever" because a unit manage to do something useful in one or two games.

See, I can dismiss other peoples opinions as crap by ad hominem as well. Yay for me...

I didn't mean to come off as harsh as that sounds, but I do think that the attitude that most people have towards Vanguard Vets is based on the opinions of others rather than practical experience, and that's what I tried to address in my post.

@Savis:
Vanguard Veterans have different benefits than Assault Terminators. Even with jump packs, they are 10 points cheaper. True, with power weapons they are more expensive, but Heroic Intervention gives them a major edge. With Assault Terminators, you have to take a land raider, because otherwise you deep strike in, eat a turn of shooting from EVERYTHING that your opponent has, and then you get to assault. VV's can land and assault without worrying about this. They are a better counter attack element because (using method 1) you can have them show up anywhere within 6" of a locator beacon. In a Land Raider minus jump packs, they offer more wounds and more attacks than Assault Terminators, whose weakness is simple weight of attacks.

@Ed
I advocate keeping VV's as cheap as possible. A lot of people see their options (which can make a mean unit) and go crazy on them. The problem is that expensive VV's are outperformed and overcosted compared to Assault Terminators. Keeping them cheap is really the key to using them

@Bonde
True, I think that Descent of Angels makes VV's a much better choice for BA than they are in the vanilla codex, but I have tried to think of uses for the vanilla VV's because that's what I play.

@Illumini
I think that in a land raider they are still powerful. They are just 20 points a piece and they charge with 4 attacks. This offers some defense against the hordes that will eat up Assault Terminators. If you take a few power weapons, the price goes up a bit, but with wound allocation you can put PF insta-kills on the cheaper 20 point Vets.

With shrike, the problem for Assault Terminators is that you need a decent run to get them into combat, and if you don't get it, they might be screwed. VV's with fleet have a potential charge range of 19"-24".

I really couldn't agree with you more that Sternguard, especially deep striking, are an effective unit. I use them heavily in my standard list (Kantor IF). However, their role is not identical to VV's, and I think that VV's could complement them well. A good shooting unit like Sternguard will draw the enemy's assault troops towards them. When this happens, a unit of VV's could deep strike on their pod and assault that unit after the Sternguards have shot it up. Then, the Sternguard are free to shoot something else while the VV's takes out that threat.

@Gitzbitah
I agree that not all units are equal, however I do believe that VV's have a niche to fill. In the case of a drop pod army, it becomes less of a cunning trap and more inevitable. If I have 3-4 pods on the table, and my VV's can strike at any one of those locations, my opponent can either:
1. Shoot at the drop pods, saving shots against the rest of my units, which will then benefit
2. Try to stay away from all of them, which means places me in control of the game, and means that I can avoid his assault units by sticking close to my pods.
I think that creating a 12" threat radius around each pod is a valuable thing. Is it a totally killer strategy every time? No. Nothing is that perfect. But I think it can be effective.

@General_Chaos
I'll tell you what's wrong with that picture. Those terminators are footslogging it across the map. Against any opponent worth his salt, they'll be dead before they get into combat. Terminators NEED a delivery system (LRR or LRC) which is going to double the unit's cost. The key factor that makes VV's valuable is denying your opponent the ability to shoot at them first.

@tiny5th
Glad to hear that you've used them to great effectiveness, but the glaive encarmine makes me suspect that you're playing BA, which means that your Vanguard are better than the ones I'm talking about. It's not totally apples to oranges, but bear in mind that yours are more reliable than vanilla ones.

I hope I've at least gotten people to consider using VV's rather than blindly dismissing them because everyone seems to. That's my goal.

In a C:SM list, if you're planning on running Vanguard in a LRC/LRR, you would probably be better served by Honor Guard. At 35 pts per model, they are essentially the price of a Vet with a Power Weapon, plus they have Artificer Armor, and the Chapter Champion. Granted, not everyone takes a Chapter Master, although I personally think Pedro is second only to Vulkan for HQ's.

@Mad rabbit:

Only in that the Sergeant gets a free master crafted power weapon, to my chagrin they do not benefit from the descent of angels special rule, though indeed my option of keeping them within bubbles does not hurt for their effectiveness.

tiny5th wrote:@Mad rabbit:

Only in that the Sergeant gets a free master crafted power weapon, to my chagrin they do not benefit from the descent of angels special rule, though indeed my option of keeping them within bubbles does not hurt for their effectiveness.

Actually, they do benefit from Descent of Angels. Check your codex's entry for Jump Packs.

....Crap there's an oversight

Mad Rabbit wrote:@General_Chaos
I'll tell you what's wrong with that picture. Those terminators are footslogging it across the map. Against any opponent worth his salt, they'll be dead before they get into combat. Terminators NEED a delivery system (LRR or LRC) which is going to double the unit's cost. The key factor that makes VV's valuable is denying your opponent the ability to shoot at them first.

and the Vangaurd don't need a transport?

General_Chaos wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:@General_Chaos
I'll tell you what's wrong with that picture. Those terminators are footslogging it across the map. Against any opponent worth his salt, they'll be dead before they get into combat. Terminators NEED a delivery system (LRR or LRC) which is going to double the unit's cost. The key factor that makes VV's valuable is denying your opponent the ability to shoot at them first.

and the Vangaurd don't need a transport?

I'm assuming he means with JPs.

The Vanguard BAs are quite amazing. Im surprised that (even though theyre expensive) people are questioning them and the absolute wrecking power this squad can bring.

Well those points can be used for... better uses... I don't play BA though so I can't be sure but if the only advantage is descent of angels then they are not much different point for point. But YMMV.

Reading is fundamental. The OP was talking about C:SM not BA. DOA makes the BA Vanguard more worth their points with Heroic Mishap, sorry I mean Intervention, actually being more beneficial.

General_Chaos wrote:Reading is fundamental. The OP was talking about C:SM not BA. DOA makes the BA Vanguard more worth their points with Heroic Mishap, sorry I mean Intervention, actually being more beneficial.

Well yes I was just responding to Night Lords. Trust me I always read threads fully before posting

General_Chaos wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:@General_Chaos
I'll tell you what's wrong with that picture. Those terminators are footslogging it across the map. Against any opponent worth his salt, they'll be dead before they get into combat. Terminators NEED a delivery system (LRR or LRC) which is going to double the unit's cost. The key factor that makes VV's valuable is denying your opponent the ability to shoot at them first.

and the Vangaurd don't need a transport?

You compared Terminators on foot to Vanguard with jump packs. I can't think of a use that jump pack Vanguard would have for a transport.

General_Chaos wrote:Reading is fundamental. The OP was talking about C:SM not BA. DOA makes the BA Vanguard more worth their points with Heroic Mishap, sorry I mean Intervention, actually being more beneficial.

People say the same thing about the BA versions. Your point is?

Mad Rabbit wrote:You compared Terminators on foot to Vanguard with jump packs

I did? You sure about that...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Night Lords wrote:People say the same thing about the BA versions. Your point is?

Maybe it's me.... am gunna stay out of this thread