Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

hi all,

Finally got a 1750 pt game in the other day against my buddy's marines. He had imperial fists. I was pretty much shot off the field in short order. He had a vindicator that it took me to turn three to destroy the cannon. whats the best way to fight against these hummie people? I had mostly boyz and a few bikes and deffkopptas, one unit of boyz in a truck(which he destroyed first turn) and a battlewaggon with the boss and nobz in it.

Lots of rockets to desroy those pesky tanks and PKs throughout. Either buggies or deffkoptas full of rockets are extremely annoying for anyone to get rid of. Also think about a KFF Mek to save your own vehicles. 4+ obscured save no matter how far they move or dont move within a 6" bubble. Also gives your infantry 5+ cover save for a little better survivability.

More trukks and lootas.

ok. what about looted wagons, yall ever have any luck with them?

I find that looted wagons get destroyed easily, almost as easy as trukks! Equip your deffkoptas with buzz saws and see how that works

Rokits and lootas are your best bet took out a vindicator first turn with them.

I like the looted wagon personally, a looted wagon with a boomgun, 2 big shootas, ard case, and grot riggers is 140 and is pretty good at heavy and annoying people.

Well, I've had descent luck with Looted Wagons. They really do a couple of things for you.

First, even with Orky Ballistic Skill, a relatively long ranged pie plate isn't a bad thing.

Second, you've got Orks, you basically want to start tying things up in hand to hand as early as possible (for the most part anyway) and more Boyz means better chances of success. I've found that with Looted Wagons, you basically get a couple of rounds of shooting and then it becomes a target. Not really the end of the world though since you're probably running a little low on things to shoot at after turn 3 or 4 anyway and every unit shooting at the wagon isn't shooting at your Boyz.

In terms of armour killing, pretty much what everyone else has said and I'll add a couple of others.

I know the humble Ork Warbuggy has somewhat dropped out of favour, but it's still a couple of twin linked Rokkit shots a turn.

I've also had good luck with Tankbustas, much better than I should have to be honest. Stick them in something quick like a Trukk and get them somewhere they can use their Bomb Squigs (indisputably the coolest way to kill a vehicle in the game, even if it winds up being your own ride) and Tankbusta Bombs.

Finally, you can try Fast Attack anything. The cautionary here is that good infantry support can put the damper on this strategy and even eat the Fast Attack unit. In this scenario, your goal is basically to get in close, and keep the tank moving so it can't unload its Ordnance. If your opponent is serious about preserving their tank, it can work. If they're not, then they either take their shot and roll the dice on losing the tank or they use it to draw your chase unit into a bad way...or both. This strategy isn't perfect, but it can be quite fun.

Thanks for all the advise. I do have a question. I was looking at my codex, and it doesnt say that you can put tankbustas in a truck. Am I missing something?

You can put tankbustas into a trukk, they just can't be deployed in it. If you're fielding nobz or meganobz I'd recommend that you take a trukk as a dedicated vehicle for them, that way you don't have to cut down on the size of your units of boyz.

I had thought that if I bought a transport of one unit, only that unit could use it, keep in mind folks ive only briefly read the new rules in the smaller book.

Check out page 67 on the small rulebook, that should help clear things up, in the bottom right corner there's a box explaining the limitations of dedicated transports.

thats what I get for skipping the boxes. Thanks for pointing that out sir.

OP:

Couple of notes for you.

1. Putting tankbustas into a trukk is a very bad idea. Nobs need to be in a vehicle and getting into combat as quickly as possible, and if you take a boyz unit with them, they can only be numbered up to 12....also a terrible idea.
2. Tankbustas at 1750 is also a bad idea. You have so many other options available to you that are effective anti-tank before you even get to broaching tankbustas, which are themselves limited by their own Glory Hogs rule.
3. Worst idea of all is expending a heavy support slot to a Looted Wagon. Its poorly armored, its gun is underpowered and overcosted in comparison to like weaponry (Battle cannons) in every other codex, the wagon is open-topped, and....(deletes the rest of this note) that should be enough to discourage you from using it.

In short, I'd encourage you to take what's been written here for advice with a very large serving of salt, and not base your army building or purchasing on it. From a competitive standpoint (and it seems that you're looking to improve your competitive game), its been largely bad advice. >< What you really need is not advice on how to beat Imperial fists, but an understanding of your codex, how to build an effective list, what units go into which kinds of effective lists depending on what theme you choose, and the practice to make your list tactically competitive. Three steps for you.

Step 1: Read the rest of this post. I'm going to copy and paste a few things I've written elsewhere for you.

Step 2: Read the Ork tactica. There are tactics articles in the tactics forum where you are now.

Step 3: Tell us what kind of army you would like to play. What theme, what cult, what flavor, what style...what you find fun.

After that, advice can be leveraged your way to help figure out how to make you scarier on the field. But....not really before. So read on.
----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to work off of a couple of assumptions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Playing Warhammer 40k is fun.
2. Playing Warhammer 40k and winning is more fun.
3. Playing Warhammer 40k and losing is less fun.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Human nature and natural selection demand that we continually seek to improve ourselves. Having an A type personality probably doesn't hurt this effort, but if you lose a game of 40k and don't reflect on the game with, "What did I do wrong? What could I have done better? How can I prevent this from happening again?" then I can't really talk to you.

If this thought process and those three assumptions *do* apply to you, then read on.

******
Orks are a unique codex. An ork boy is significantly cheaper than just about any other model in 40k, and is basically a platform from which many things spring (other kinds of ork variants - stormboyz, lootas, nobs...). If you read the fluff, every ork starts in the same place, and as they develop, they lean towards on klan/society, which is how they figure out what kind of ork they're going to be.

In other codexes (space marines and their variants being the most prolific), basic troops are well-rounded models. You ever play Final Fight? How about ANY kind of game with character selections? You've got the big, strong guy that's slow...the average Joe....and the weaker but very speedy character. This applies in 40k as well. Space marines are like your average, well-rounded Joe. Orks are NOT. You can't mix and match orks in any order you like to make a generalized list.

This is *not* called power building, its called understanding your codex, how your codex is designed, and using it as such. Every time someone calls "playing a theme" to be "powerbuilding" I want to stab them in the F***** eye. If you look in the Ork codex, do you see the codex writers putting in pictures for the sample armies of some Lootas backing up a squad of meganobs in a trukk, who are advancing next to some buggies and a deffkopta or two?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They even TELL you how to make your army. They tell you what the Ork klans are - Bad Moons, Kult of Speed, Deffskullz, etc.

That kind of thematic army construction is the intent of the Ork codex. That is what makes orks powerful. The ork codex is written so that you can design an army list that is absolutely ridiculously powerful, but it is NOT made up of average Joe units; everything is specialized towards a specific goal. When you build an army list, you should follow the thematic advice given to you in the Codex. PICK a theme. There's a lot of them:

Green Tide. Mechanized Assault. Mechanized Shooting. Ork Gunline (Moar Dakka), Kan-Wall. Dreadz of Fury. Kult of Speed. Outflanking Goodness. Rebel Grotz. Nob Bikers. Super Units. Orky Burnas.

All of those things have something in common - the lists were designed with a theme in mind, and have the synergy to work together towards that goal. When you start combining those themes to make a list, you're being counterintuitive to the very style that the orks were created for.

Remember this: Orks can do anything that any other army can do, and they can do it better than that army. However, orks can only do it one at a time. You can outshoot a Tau Gunline. You can out-assault a khorne army or an army of genestealers. You can put down more templates than IG....whatever your goal in mind is....orks can do it better, but it has to stick to that theme. Orks are not meant to be universal, middle-of-the-line armies.

To give another analogy...if you've ever played an MMO, there are different classes. Fighter, Tank, barbarian, mage, cleric, wizard, hunter, ranger, red mage, death knight, rogue, whatever.....its all based on the game you play. The class you pick sets you on a path for the kind of game you play, the skills you get - they are pre-defined roles.

40k armies fit into that kind of typification. Except for Orks. Orks would be the generic class. You start with a neutral character, with skillpoints to assign, and you can make orks any kind of army you want them to be. People fail with orks because they want some of everything. Instead of making them a fighter, or an archer, or a guardian...and they would be better fighters, archers and guardians than every other type...they split points between all three to make a Figardian. F.A.G for short.

Do you want to excel in something, or be a F.A.G? That's what it boils down to.

Are you a F.A.G?




*EDIT* I'm adding information for the tactics article I'm working on.

If you're running a foot-slogging list, shoota boys are your friend. Slugga boys belong inside vehicles. In fact, I think you should convert your slugga boy mobs into shoota boys. In 5th edition, the shoota boy is the most efficient point purchase across all 40k.

Think on that - for 6 points...SIX POINTS....you get an infantry model with an assault 2 STR4 gun, who is WS4, STR4, T4 on the charge. In terms of math hammer between shoota and slugga boys, it's pretty simple. Slugga boys have +1 attack in close combat, and shoota boys have +1 attack outside of close combat. Since your Orks on the assault are only I3, you're going to strike last meaning that 30 boyz are going to take some casualties before getting their attacks back.

On the flip side, shoota boys get 2 shots before assaulting, and the enemy doesn't get to shoot back first and cause casualties - putting in any kind of hurt before you assault is incredibly valuable. And since it has an 18" range, you can shoot into a unit even when you don't have range to assault this turn. My advice for green tide:

Take all your troops choices as shoota boys. Consider taking a squad of gretchin - you can spread them across your front lines to provide 4+ cover saves for your whole army. Alternatively, you can take a squad of ork boyz to do the same. If you make them 'Ard Boyz they gain considerably in staying power.

Want to get real freaky? Take a squad of 'Ard Boyz, stick Mad Dok Grotsnik with them for a 4+/4+. Spread that unit out 2+ coherence to minimize the damage that blast templates can do, and have the whole thing move+run in front of your army. Your screening unit has 4+ armor saves, 4+ feel no pain, and the rest of your army has 4+ cover saves now. If your points allow it, what really tops off the list is adding some fast attack Stormboyz. You can put them into close combat, or have them multi-assault to shake/stun some tanks/artillery, have them get in fast and tie up enemy units (hello Tau!), or if the situation doesn't call for it, you can leave them behind your screening unit and keep them in reserve to get in where you need supporting assault units at.

----------------------------------
Here's a quick take on those various lists. Please remember something important: Every list needs to be tailored for point allocations. What I'm putting down here is an "optimized" list where you get the maximum ability from it, so if you're playing a 1,000 point gunline, three full squads of Lootas + supporting units and troop choices isn't really what you're going to play. You'll have to tweak to match your needs.

Green Tide:
Green tide is actually an apocalypse battle formation, but is a common name for a foot-slogging ork army list. It consists of mobs of 30 shoota boys, a nob with a powerklaw, and either a unit of gretchin or a unit of boyz or 'Ard Boyz (maybe even with Mad Dok) screened across the front to give the rest of the army a 4+ cover save as they advance up the board.

Mechanized Assault:
12 slugga boyz+Nob/PK stacked into trukks, perhaps some battlewagons in the mix, covered by a Big Mek with a KFF...an elite unit or two (kommandos, lootas, burnas) tacked into the mix depending on your personal playstyle - they get into close combat as fast as orkishly possible; with Ghazghkull leading the mix, that's usually turn2.

Mechanized Shooting:
Instead of slugga boys, you have shoota boys, preferably in battlewagons, with a KFF screening them, rolling around the battlefield pouring firepower into enemy units. Alternatively, (and one of my favorite setups) this is 3 Loota squads inside battlewagons sitting on the back table edge, Big mek with KFF in the middle one in a trident formation \|/ to present front armor across the battlefield, surrounded by a unit of gretchin to prevent assaults on rear armor.


Ork Gunline:
Three squads of Lootas form the backbone of this, either sitting in cover or with a screening unit to give them a 4+ cover save, heavy support of big guns or some dreads/kans to provide long range firepower, with the obligatory shoota boy squads.


Kan wall:
One of the current meta-game favorites: Three squads of three killa-kans, protected by a KFF mek (or two) marching up the field screening mobs of shoota boys behind them.


Dreadz of Fury:
Three DeffDreads for Heavy Support + 2 Deff Dreads for troop choices, with a KFF mek screening them for a 4+ cover save, set for either long ranged fire support or close ranged pwnage; I prefer the STR10 DCCWs.


Kult of Speed:
Straight out of your codex! Boyz in trukks, mechanized element + Stormboyz. Ponder this for a moment: 6 trukks full of boyz screened by a Mek with a KFF, in turn screening 3 units of Stormboyz who can move as fast as the trukks moving flat out...that's a lot of fast moving destruction.

Outflanking Goodness:
Kommandos as elites and Deffkoptas as fast attack, as many of each as you can fit in, often with Deffkoptas equipped differently for wound allocation spread outflanking (unless you get turn1 and put your deffkoptas out for a turn1 turbo-boost).


Rebel Grotz:
Instead of six units of boyz, you get.....gretchin! Bwah ha ha. Not particularly scary in themselves, but using covering units or terrain, able to go to ground for a 3+ cover save, making them incredibly difficult to remove from an objective, especially with other gretchin (inside killa-kans) are krumping around the battlefield.

Nob Bikers:
Two warbosses + 20 nobs = 2HQ + 2Troops. 22 models = 1750. Diversified wargear and weaponry let you spread wounds around instead of removing models, and the unit is incredibly tough, has the ability to get anywhere fast, and kill anything fast.

Super Units:
Similar to Nob bikers in having an army with a low model count: Warboss Krumpmaster and the Megaboyz; a couple units of Meganobs, or my personal preference, units of regular nobs with diversified wargear for wound allocation magic - in vehicles!


Orky Burnas:
Start with three units of burna boys. Put them in battlewagons if you like. Mek with a KFF to screen if you do, and you have an army of combination templates / power weapons. Alternatively, a warboss makes nobs a troops choice, and you can give them all kombi-skorchas for some real carnage.


Battlewagon Spam:
Did you know that you can field 8 Battlewagons in a single army list? That's right...eight battlewagons. Three Heavy Support, Three dedicated transports for elite unit nobs, and two warbosses making two units of nobs troop choices so that you can take two more battlewagons. I think any time you have vehicles, you should have a KFF floating around, so I wouldn't advocate going for 8....but you can do a lot of things with a list of Battlewagons.


-----------------------------------------------------
OP, figure out what you want to play and we'll take it from there. You don't even have to necessarily conform to one of the playstyles that I'm suggesting, but you absolutely do want to pick a theme. Start there and we'll work with ya.