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Why not let Forge World be totally official.

I understand the tournament scene.

I understand new players being stomped and thinking the game is just an arms race for rich nerds.

But, why can't Forge World models be brought into the fold, under some sort of system like Magic has type 1 and type 2, and stuff like that.

How does your group handle Forge World models and datasheets?

Does your FLGS support Forge World in tournaments or special games?

it would be nice if some of the items were allowed.

my FLGS is pretty cool about forge world models. we do alot of homebrew things too so its difficult to say no.


Tournements aren't all organized by GW and as such the TO's won't allow many FW models.

this is for several reasons(this is for non-super heavies as the reason for those is obvious)

1) many FW models have special rules that can be confusing

2) FW models are expensive and it would be unfair to those who can't afford the expensive resin models

3) the rules may not be balanced with the GW codex's(althought this could be remidied by making them one company and line of models)



i have never understood why FW is operated seperatly from its "parent" company. is their some wierd tax law in GB that they are exploiting a loophole in?

"I have more money to throw away...you don't. Sucks for you." Vibe is what comes to mind for me.

And yes, the unfamiliar rules are one thing, it takes time away from the tourney if you have to learn the rules of something, or have to be or need to keep reminded of their rules, and balance issues of course.

While making up the game we discuss whats cool or not. So if someone is wanting to play with something fancy or homebrew we just talk it over and usually its cool to use them. But yea I can see the problem at non GW tournies for the reasons already mentioned

Sanctjud wrote:"I have more money to throw away...you don't. Sucks for you." Vibe is what comes to mind for me.

And yes, the unfamiliar rules are one thing, it takes time away from the tourney if you have to learn the rules of something, or have to be or need to keep reminded of their rules, and balance issues of course.

It's no different than playing against a new Codex.

The fact is, FW is official. Superheavy fliers and superheavies in general are the only things that require permission.

But the real reason people don't like playing against Forge World lists/creations?
There's a huge stigma of "overpowered rules for underpowered prices"(when in fact it's the opposite).

ArmyC wrote:Why not let Forge World be totally official.

Short answer: Because it is not in the codex.

Long answer: FW models are very cool but they are not always made with game balance in mind (Flyers). If your opponent brought a flyer you need a 6 to hit it without AA guns.
AA guns are only found in Apoc (Many models are FW) or FW itself. Thus to balance the game both players would need FW models. Since they are resin & not made in the US we would have to order from Britain.
Not to mention FW models are more expensive, and warhammer is expensive enough as is.
So to get the best units you have to spend more money & the game takes a step toward magic where money can trump skill. (Argue all you want my $10 all commons deck will not beat a $450 Jund deck)

FW made a point of giving you a good idea of how best to price an "Anti-Aircraft" upgrade to your opponent's vehicles(something like 5% of a pintle mounted weapon's cost allows it to discount the 6s to hit, 10% for main weapons if they're under S7 or 8, and 30% for anything higher--and sponson weapons cannot be upgraded).

Even so that is FW giving you their idea of how to balance & FW is not writing the actual codexes. Yes they have good & fun ideas but I think they belong in Apoc, or friendly games with your opponents permission.

For regular 40k tournaments you have your codex & your codex alone, which I think is the best option.

Best example of why FW shouldnt be allowed at tournaments

Exhibit A: Updated dreadnought drop pod that has an assault ramp (Read the BA book and you'll see why this is a dumb idea)

Exhibit B: Deathwind drop pod that fires D3 whirlwind shots at every unit within 12" or d3 assault cannons!

Apparently they love overpowered drop pods that can destroy an entire ork army for 90 pts

Kirasu wrote:Best example of why FW shouldnt be allowed at tournaments

Exhibit A: Updated dreadnought drop pod that has an assault ramp (Read the BA book and you'll see why this is a dumb idea)

Exhibit B: Deathwind drop pod that fires D3 whirlwind shots at every unit within 12" or d3 assault cannons!

Apparently they love overpowered drop pods that can destroy an entire ork army for 90 pts

The updated Dreadnought Drop Pod was made with the Dark Angels Codex Venerable Dreadnought in mind.

So you can see why it wasn't a dumb idea back then

ArmyC wrote:I understand new players being stomped and thinking the game is just an arms race for rich nerds.
How does your group handle Forge World models and datasheets? Does your FLGS support Forge World in tournaments or special games?

You mean it's NOT an arms race for rich nerds already?

Our local hangout uses FW and such in special events and Apocalypse games. Tournaments with rare exceptions are Codex only affairs.

Well, you know, it's a game.

You can play anything your pals want to play and you can't play anything they don't want to play.

It's not like the Forge World police turn up shouting, "You have 20 seconds to comply" if someone refuses to play with a Forge World model.

FW models are allowed. You have to look to your local 'rules' and ask them why they wouldn't be.

I'm running the 40k tournament at the UK Games Expo this year and Forgeworld models and lists definitely are allowed.

Use the FW minis as counts as in a standard list.

As for the rules, just have a discussion (as stated many times above).

On paper all the FW books say the rules can be used without your opponents permission. That they are just as valid as a codex.

Its only because tournaments have to have a hightend level of fairness, in focusing on the most familiar lists, that keeps FW out of tournaments.

In all practicality, FW models are rarely worth their points. GW brought the price of Valkyries down for the IG codex; yeah it lost "flyer" and "hover" but got a whole slew of new rules that effectively made it the same, for less. Most of FW models are Superheavies or Flyers and can only be used in Apocalypse anyways. If you exclude those models you are left with a short list for each army.

A lot of my forces are pretty much FW only. I can't help it if I can be bothered to budget, and buy miniatures that are more detailed than the regular GW ones. I've never run into anyone who has burst out because it's 'unfair' that I have them. The rules themselves can be a bit iffy, but the books that are written with the current edition in mind are fine. Mostly I end up paying more for a less effect, as was noted earlier.

Too many people math-hammer stuff, and that doesn't reflect how well the kit works in game. I'm sure there will be a great hue and cry about how 'wrong' the latest book is.

what models are you using?


it probably depends on the exact unit you are fielding.

Certain FW models are significantly different then their GW equivilants.


the Grey Knight Landraider Redeemer is an example.

only difference is it has a TL-psycannon instead of the assault cannon and its flamestorm cannons ignore invulns.

an AP3 flamer that ignores invulns

yes you pay a proper price, but it will wreak house on any army it gets close to.

...It's a "Heavy Incinerator".
It's no different in its rules than the Incinerator that the Grey Knights themselves carry--just a bit more powerful since it's much bigger.

its Str6 AP3 right?

i don't think its unfair(you paid the points and the dough to get it), but there will always be those who try and avoid the powerful in any way they can.

The Grey Knights Land Raider Redeemer is 270ish points.
30 point difference, without any upgrades.

And yes, S6 AP3--Heavy 1. It still allows armour saves, just negates cover/invulnerables.

allows armor saves to Terminators.

anything else is screwed.


i will be so happy when it arrives in my new codex

aka_mythos wrote:On paper all the FW books say the rules can be used without your opponents permission. That they are just as valid as a codex.

Its only because tournaments have to have a hightend level of fairness, in focusing on the most familiar lists, that keeps FW out of tournaments.

The latest official statement is that the Imperial Armor books are just like any other expansion, like City Fight or the mission book. That isn't the same as the codices.

so that means you agree you can use the impierial armor books before hand and then anything within is just fine to use.


still requires permission in aroundabout way.

Kirasu wrote:Exhibit A: Updated dreadnought drop pod that has an assault ramp (Read the BA book and you'll see why this is a dumb idea)

Exhibit B: Deathwind drop pod that fires D3 whirlwind shots at every unit within 12" or d3 assault cannons!

This. GW has (I think) finally gotten the message that people usually prefer rules that are somewhat balanced. With semi-balanced rules, it's possible to have a fairly even match in which people actually have to use strategy to win. FW models tend to be massively under- or over-priced (or, on occasion, simply have rules that are so out of whack with the rest of the ruleset that it's hard to put a point value on them), and exist because of the coolness factor instead of because they make for a good strategy game. Alternatively, you could see them as beta (or maybe even alpha) versions of inended models/rulesets, and there are reasons why people prefer final versions to alpha or beta releases.

FW models are like Angry Marines. They're great, as long as you want to play an "awesome" game. Me, I'd rather play an interesting one.

Sanctjud wrote:
There's a huge stigma of "overpowered rules for underpowered prices"(when in fact it's the opposite).

In general forge world stuff is overpointed, or under powered ( forge world hyrdras were like almost 200 points at one point, and no real diffrence from the one in the New IG book really).

On the other hand are you really gonna try and tell people that for 170ish points you get 3 Stationary Griffon mortars with 15 ig guys you have to kill, but you only hit them 60% of the time you hit them, and they have Infernus shells ( any unit hit by the shell auto falls back), Did i mention this was in the elite slot?

Most of the time forge world will be conservative and the stuff they put out will be underpowered or over pointed but look really nice and it would be fine in most any enviroment. the problem shows up with that 5% of their stuff that makes it out to the public when its not balanced or your not paying enough points for it.

In the heavy mortar example I gave, it has two problems, The infernus shells, in the death corp list you pay 20 points per a mortar for the infernus shells, but in the general IG entry in the IA book you can auto swap your normal shells for any of the others, the Infernus shell in general is not balanced in anyway no matter the cost as it can run units off the table without actually hurting them( unless they are fearless). The second issue is the force org slot they fill. this translates into the ig army have 3 more heavy support slots. There really is nothing in the elite section of the IG list that competes at all with 3 more 5 inch ord templete that you need anti infantry stuff to kill .

don't get me wrong I love forgeworld models but the rules are not balanced for play.

GW’s a reasonably-expensive hobby to start with, so I’ve never seen the cost or “fairness” arguments be a serious issue.

The main reasons I see for not allowing FW stuff as a default are balance and player confusion.

Balance is less of a big deal, as the core codices are not that balanced to start with, but FW generally does an even worse job at properly-costing units than the GQ studio does. 90% of the FW models I’ve ever read are over or under-costed. Over is more common, leaving the underpriced and arguably-broken stuff a relatively small minority, but it’s still a population of cheap nastiness that I think the game is largely better without.

Confusion is the bigger and more serious issue. FW stuff creates a substantially larger set of rules for players to remember, and is much more likely to be forgotten by or unfamiliar to potential opponents, who are much less likely to play against it regularly. This adds time and misunderstandings to games. When you include the fact that FW’s proofreading and editing makes GW’s look GOOD by comparison, then it’s even worse.

All that said, some tournaments (like Adepticon) do allow them, and IME many players are perfectly happy to face FW stuff in friendly games. Many local tournaments are also okay with some, though it’s a good idea to check with the organizer. When I ran a tournament series I allowed them on a case-by-case basis. I remember approving a dreadnought variant at one point, and a Spined Chaos Beast.

I run a lot of the Tau suit variants, in fact I have no regular GW suits. I also have a good sized Elysian airmobile force, and with IA8 I will be able to use them properly in the current edition of the game. Most players that I run into for casual games usually step back, go wow, confirm any differences and take the armies as a new challenge. A lot of the guys I play against just use 'all comers' lists and don't re-write to suit. Everyone I've played has enjoyed the change of pace, and I've never had anyone start crying because of what I place on the table. I generally run fairly balanced 'fun' lists.

I'm more likely to get a winge when I use the Swarmlord and two Trygon primes as the core of my 'Nid army.

For tourneys, it is upto the organiser, but as a non tourney player I think that the extra variety is good. The money aspect is moot, because I would rather budget, and get my force finished later to my liking than rush and buy the first thing I get offered as it's 'the latest/greatest'. People will screw any ruleset they can if they are that way inclined, just look at all the whine-fests about army books being good/bad on the forum. The rules that FW are putting out have been getting tighter in the latest editions, and one thing that may be a problem is the way that English differs in use between the US and UK.

It's weird. IA1 and IA2 say they don't require permission, but hey, everyone ignores that in the same way everyone assumes that FW models are unbalanced and would make the game unfair.

Yeah, they do make the game unfair - for the guy using them!!! FW rules are junk. They make the odd unit that is unbalanced and powerful (Cyclops, Meotic Spores, Reaver Titan, etc.), but the rest are overpriced underpowered wastes of space. Using them often hampers your army, it doesn't help it. People who refuse to play against them are just schmucks who are afraid of losing.

GW's rationale is that it confuses noobs or something. Honestly, I have no idea.

Kirasu wrote:
Exhibit B: Deathwind drop pod that fires D3 whirlwind shots at every unit within 12" or d3 assault cannons!

Apparently they love overpowered drop pods that can destroy an entire ork army for 90 pts

D3 assault cannon shots at BS2 - that's 2 dead orks in each unit within 12" on the turn it comes down and then in subsequent turns it only fires once (killing 1 ork). So if it's really lucky it might kill 15 orks in the game. For 95 points.
The whirlwind might kill loads but it can also miss completely very easily.

The deathwind is not dangerous - it causes a big panic but amounts to little. Exactly what it's supposed to do really.

My group is fine with IA. Like most groups that use it there's no flyers or anything with structure points without arranging it in advance.

The big problem with IA rules is that many units are revised and re-printed and it can be very difficult to know if you have the current version of the rules. IA Apoc2 has a listing of every unit for 40K marked with which books contain current rules. About time but it should have been a living document.