Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't think it's particularly better than moving them across the board, but it's not particularly worse either. Praetorians are cheaper than their previous incarnation, and RP is a nice boon to them, but in the end I don't feel like either way you run them they're particularly astounding.

Ok, so I just recently got 8 destroyers for $45 on ebay. Condition? Repairable. Going to be converting some to heavies . Right now my plans are the following D cult, as I have 15 destroyers and 1 heavy destroyer at the moment.

D-lord - scythe, shifter
3+1 destroyers/heavy
3+1 destroyers/heavy
3+1 destroyers/heavy
2 heavy

I've seen a few people run similar D-cults, I ran a similar one that was 3 units of 2+1, so this should work out really well. Planning on kitbashing tesla+warrior guns to make heavy guns.

Planning on running the D-cult along a CAD with a bunch of warriors and immortals. Right now I am thinking the CAD will include the following

Cryptek + chronomerton
20 warriors (for D lord+cryptek)
10 warriors
5 immortals
5 immortals
5 immortals

Though at the same time, I could just as easily bring what I would normally bring to a decurion,
10 warriors, 18 warriors, 6 immortals, and a bunch of tomb blades... ooor I could ditch the immortals all together and have the cad be:

Cryptek+chronomomemnomemoitron
18 warriors
10 warriors+ ghost ark
4 tomb blades
4 tomb blades


Thoughts?

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Ok, so I just recently got 8 destroyers for $45 on ebay. Condition? Repairable. Going to be converting some to heavies . Right now my plans are the following D cult, as I have 15 destroyers and 1 heavy destroyer at the moment.

D-lord - scythe, shifter
3+1 destroyers/heavy
3+1 destroyers/heavy
3+1 destroyers/heavy
2 heavy

I've seen a few people run similar D-cults, I ran a similar one that was 3 units of 2+1, so this should work out really well. Planning on kitbashing tesla+warrior guns to make heavy guns.

Planning on running the D-cult along a CAD with a bunch of warriors and immortals. Right now I am thinking the CAD will include the following

Cryptek + chronomerton
20 warriors (for D lord+cryptek)
10 warriors
5 immortals
5 immortals
5 immortals

Though at the same time, I could just as easily bring what I would normally bring to a decurion,
10 warriors, 18 warriors, 6 immortals, and a bunch of tomb blades... ooor I could ditch the immortals all together and have the cad be:

Cryptek+chronomomemnomemoitron
18 warriors
10 warriors+ ghost ark
4 tomb blades
4 tomb blades


Thoughts?

The Decurion is definitely worthwhile if you're going to run all those warriors and tomb blades anyway. An Overlord is a small tax to grant your Destroyers 4+ RP and Move Through Cover.

I forgot to mention, I am running CAD to avoid the complaints and even the playing field. My last 3 or 4 decurion games have just been horrible landslides, and that is no fun for the opponent.

Nice haul, Gwarsh!

If you're looking to tone-down your list, though, stepping down from a decurion is only part of it. Building-up your D-Cult takes it in the other direction entirely.

The Destroyer Cult is one of our strongest formations, probably second only to the all-smashing Canoptek Harvest. Further, its ability to punch through armour saves synergizes really, really well with the tomb blades' ability to ignore cover. Between the two of them, there's not a lot that they can't handle. Especially if one of your regular opponents is bringing paper-armoured skimmer light transports. Yowch.

Hah, none of my regular opponents bring paper thin transports. People I know bring them, I have played them once in the past 6 months or so. Daemonkin, IG and knights have been the most common thing I have fought recently.

I am going to be converting 12 warriors into flayed ones, and trying them out from time to time as well.

 FL5 wrote:
Nice haul, Gwarsh!

If you're looking to tone-down your list, though, stepping down from a decurion is only part of it. Building-up your D-Cult takes it in the other direction entirely.

The Destroyer Cult is one of our strongest formations, probably second only to the all-smashing Canoptek Harvest. Further, its ability to punch through armour saves synergizes really, really well with the tomb blades' ability to ignore cover. Between the two of them, there's not a lot that they can't handle. Especially if one of your regular opponents is bringing paper-armoured skimmer light transports. Yowch.

From a competitive standpoint, I think this is the next direction I'm going. Destroyers for wrecking heavy units, Tomb Blades for smoking light units in cover. Both are getting nice rerolls, both are pretty fast, both are T5 3+ with Move Through Cover. That's a pretty rough list for people to deal with. Especially if you have Wraiths as a frontline (or Lychguard, though they're much slower and might get outpaced by the rest of the list). An army of T5 with RP would be pretty scary for most enemies, methinks.

In that one, if there is no Orikanstar, I think a Catacomb Command Barge might make for the better Reclamation Legion leader. He can keep up with the Tomb Blades to give them rerolls on LD tests and RPs of 1. Would be a very quick, scary list.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I forgot to mention, I am running CAD to avoid the complaints and even the playing field. My last 3 or 4 decurion games have just been horrible landslides, and that is no fun for the opponent.

Honestly, I would like to see how people's decurions fare against the new SM codex. Obsec everywhere for their army (literally everywhere, just about) is going to shift the meta away from the "what's obsec" meta that we've been living in with many of the strong builds from Crons, Nids, Daemons, etc.

 luke1705 wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I forgot to mention, I am running CAD to avoid the complaints and even the playing field. My last 3 or 4 decurion games have just been horrible landslides, and that is no fun for the opponent.

Honestly, I would like to see how people's decurions fare against the new SM codex. Obsec everywhere for their army (literally everywhere, just about) is going to shift the meta away from the "what's obsec" meta that we've been living in with many of the strong builds from Crons, Nids, Daemons, etc.

Only if you haven't grown tired of Maelstrom's inability to simulate anything resembling a coherent mission.

 FL5 wrote:
The Destroyer Cult is one of our strongest formations, probably second only to the all-smashing Canoptek Harvest.

D.Cult is our strongest unit.
C.Harvest is tougher, but lacks the offensive punch that the Destroyers carry.

 skoffs wrote:

 FL5 wrote:
The Destroyer Cult is one of our strongest formations, probably second only to the all-smashing Canoptek Harvest.

D.Cult is our strongest unit.
C.Harvest is tougher, but lacks the offensive punch that the Destroyers carry.

Yep, 100%. The Harvest is powerful, sure. But Spyders and Scarabs are only decent, and Wraiths are the main reason you take it. And those Wraiths can't hope to put out the same amount of pure damage that you get from Destroyers, especially with the rerolls from the formation. And against most guns, Destroyers are just as durable as Wraiths, and don't put themselves in harms way thanks to being able to JSJ. Pound for pound, it's probably the best in the book. The only downside is that once you take the Heavies (which you should) and kit out the DLord, it's so expensive to bring that it's hard to get actual support units with it.

Cult and Harvest aren't directly comparable IMO. Harvest is more like a unit, you can use it in almost any list and it costs around 300 points. There are other ways to use it, but usually it's just one unit of wraiths with a spyder that buffs them plus a 60 point scarab tax. Cult is usually close to half your army in points, and you have to build your list around it, not just because of the price tag but also because the destroyer lord is only good if you take some other unit he can join (my favourite is lychguard).

So I'm sure you guys are tired of me going on about how much I love Deathstars, particularly the Conclave and the Orikanstar. I went to a tourney and brought both just to see how fun it would be.

Unfortunately, the TO decided that he wanted to see what would happen if he put no restrictions other than Battle Forged and 1850. So, we had things like a Revenant Titan, a Lynx + Wraithknight list, a 4 Wraithknight list, and a Chaos Warhound Titan with CSM and Daemons. The last of which I pulled in my first round, of course -_-

Here's the thing about Deathstars. Against "regular" armies, they're great. Durable, scary, win most combats they're in. But, it doesn't matter how big, expensive, durable, and cool your Deathstar is - D weapons and Stomps don't give two craps about them. 6? You're gone. Happened enough times between the Warhound's stomps and guns, Vaul weapon batteries with D weapons, and Wraithknights being Wraithknights.

Now, in the future, he said these events would likely be limited as ITC is (that is, 1 LoW per army, and a ban on some of the big nasties). But, that means we'll still see big dudes like the Barbed Hierodule, Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, and of course, as much D as Eldar can offer.

To that end, I wonder if dropping Deathstars in lieu of more units is possibly the more competitive play. While the Orikanstar is certainly competitive (it killed nearly half of a Skitarii army by itself, killed a Wraithknight in a single charge, and tanked shots as it does), it does feel crappy when a random weapon battery vaporizes dudes that you depend on to "carry" a good chunk of your army.

Now, of course, that's not to say that D won't just melt everything else. And at the same front, having the big durable Deathstar is useful to tie up something like an Imperial Knight or Wraithknight so it can't shoot at things, even if just for a turn. It's hard to say how much should be spent on one unit before it starts being a liability more than a power unit.

Again, when I went against a "regular" army (Skitarii + Cult Mechanicus), both Deathstars just railed around, killing everything in sight without fail. But, if the competitive meta is going to move towards D and Gargantuans/Superheavies in every list (except ours, because T-C'tan nerf), it's going to be hard to spend so much on a powerful but expensive Deathstar when it might just get blinked out in a turn or two.

What does the Royal Court think? MSU with durable units, or Deathstars of doom still to be considered?

Something similar happened at the last tournament I saw. Chaos reaver titan in an 1850, the giant tyranid bugger, all wraithknights + a titan.

I just stopped going to those tournaments. It turned into a biggest wallet competition.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Something similar happened at the last tournament I saw. Chaos reaver titan in an 1850, the giant tyranid bugger, all wraithknights + a titan.

I just stopped going to those tournaments. It turned into a biggest wallet competition.

Yeah, I likely won't got if the setup is the same. But, if they use the regular ITC restrictions, I'd be interested in doing it.

Sounds like it's time to fill the skies with Deathbringers.
Maybe a unit or two of Beamer Harvest Wraiths with an attached Veil/Obyron + D.Lord to go after their centerpiece one trick pony.

 skoffs wrote:
Sounds like it's time to fill the skies with Deathbringers.
Maybe a unit or two of Beamer Harvest Wraiths with an attached Veil/Obyron + D.Lord to go after their centerpiece one trick pony.

I'm considering the Doom Scythes quite seriously, acutally. They'll be a bit of overkill against no-vehicle or no-LoW lists (which is why I don't bring them normally), but S10 Lance is nothing to laugh at. That's one of those formations I consider good, but specific and not auto-include.

Teleporting Beamers might work, but I don't think it's reliable enough. DLord PE(E!) helps out, but you're still fishing for 6s on 6 shots, and against that 9 HP Warhound, that's not exactly phenominal. Especially since I'd be clumped after the Deep Strike, and then D gun slap.

Rules for the next round are 1 LoW Gargantuan/Superheavy per army, but it can be anything. So the 4 Wraithknight lists and Lynx/Wraithknight combo are gone, but the Warhound will still be a thing. I'll work on it some, thanks for the help, fellow Overlords!

 MLKTH wrote:
Cult and Harvest aren't directly comparable IMO. Harvest is more like a unit, you can use it in almost any list and it costs around 300 points. There are other ways to use it, but usually it's just one unit of wraiths with a spyder that buffs them plus a 60 point scarab tax. Cult is usually close to half your army in points, and you have to build your list around it, not just because of the price tag but also because the destroyer lord is only good if you take some other unit he can join (my favourite is lychguard).

scarabs aren't exactly a tax with RP, and the ability to spawn them. They'll probably get their points back. Not awesome but not awful in this

Know what's better than Scarabs with RP?

A big unit of Scarabs with Shred will tear anything into little bitty bits, up to and including Wraithknights.

Alcibiades wrote:
A big unit of Scarabs with Shred will tear anything into little bitty bits, up to and including Wraithknights.

Even with Shred you numerically need 44+ Scarab Bases to kill a Wraithknight. But, you might be able to strip a wound or two off of a wounded one.

You sure about that math? Seems a bit extreme for something that auto wounds on a 6 and rerolls failed wounds.

 skoffs wrote:
You sure about that math? Seems a bit extreme for something that auto wounds on a 6 and rerolls failed wounds.

Hit on 4s, wound on 6s with rerolls, save on 3s (no rending), FNP, 6 Wounds.

Well, the math wasn't including charge extra attacks, but also the Wraithknight goes first and instadeaths a few bases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Better than the 81 needed to kill without Shred.

.5 x .31 x .33 x .67 = 0.034

10 scarab bases on the charge get 50 attacks

0.034 x 50 = 1.7 wounds

so the WK goes down by about 1/3.

Going by rough mental math, if there is a spyder or more feeding more scarabs into the mix to replace losses, they have a pretty good chance of killing it over 3-4 turns.

Alcibiades wrote:
.5 x .31 x .33 x .67 = 0.034

10 scarab bases on the charge get 50 attacks

0.034 x 50 = 1.7 wounds

so the WK goes down by about 1/3.

Rounding up, and assuming he doesn't instadeath 3+ bases at I5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also stomp means you don't get more rounds of combat.

The problem is that the WK will clear the scarabs with it's stomps, so the scarabs only have one chance.

Has anyone used a list with 10 spiders for a scarab farm?

Requizen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
.5 x .31 x .33 x .67 = 0.034

10 scarab bases on the charge get 50 attacks

0.034 x 50 = 1.7 wounds

so the WK goes down by about 1/3.

Rounding up, and assuming he doesn't instadeath 3+ bases at I5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also stomp means you don't get more rounds of combat.

Of course "assumig." It has the abiity -- it's not something that you point at a unit and it vanishes. It has a reasonable chance.

Which is much more than could be said of equivalent points of most other things.

Well, if these are Harvest Scarabs, that means there'll be Wraiths (with Shred) in the mix as well. How would the two units working in conjunction fare?

Honestly you could probably just sick the wraiths at the WK. Ive seen 6 wraiths down a knight in 2 turns with rends. Would be easier against the WK for 2 reasons.

1. Shred.
2. No strength D CC weapon.

Have your scarabs maul/distract the rest of the army.

Stomp doesn't usually do much damage unless they roll a six... but against scarabs it'll instant kill them with Strength 6 stomps on a roll of 2+. So yeah, Scarabs won't last long enough to kill a Wraithknight unless you're putting way more points into the fight than is worth it.