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I personally think this idea will be frowned upon buuuut i really want to start a unique sm army The idea is that the emperor cast out one of his sons who had super psychic abilities and was brilliant with technology but had the size and strength of a normal astarteas this son ( who i plan to call cybrek) was given plans for power armour and sm weapons but also plans for dreadnought, terminator,and Nemesis force weapons (all by the grace of his father ) HE was then given a fleet and sent off to a distant part of the cosmos where he founded his chapter where he slowly began to advance his technology. back in the empire all memory of him was destroyed.
I am going to name this chapter the knights of cybron

Opinions pleas and be honest

The emperor protects
Kayla mencha Kane guide you

Sounds pretty good, if a little outlandish. Tone it down a bit. (i.e. the "super" in his description). I like the idea of a psychic/tech centric force, but I fear that too many people would see this as a fluffy excuse to spam certain things. I have yet to post it upon the web, but I am working on my own fluff and here is a good guide to help. Good job coming up with your own unique story. I like where it's heading.

Just one other thing: I personally would suggest finding some other name than cybron. I personally think it sounds bleh w/ a little bit of meh thrown in. Come up with something that isn't just based upon "cyber".

http://www.librarium-online.com/featured/designing-a-space-marine-chapter-99.html

Keep up the good work!

In all honesty, not very interesting.

Mostly because the current fluff is pretty rigid on the matter of the Emperor and his sons (except for the two that went missing, along with their chapters/legions). So the idea of a 21st Primarch just doesn't gel. Especially since he is "super" psychic. The Emperor already had a "very" psychic son and a "very" mechanical son. Neither he greatly agreed with, and one he threatened if he went too much further. So just dropping in a new Primarch that aces these other two also caused a great deal of chaffing.

As micahaphone insinuated, it sounds precisely like you're trying to make up excuses to spam certain attributes. While I can appreciate your want to make fluff to fit you taste in lists, that is usually one of the worst ways to write story. Come up with a basic idea, and develop it from there, rather than from the result, and working a way towards a reason.

I Am not actually going to include this primarch as a model it more a back story for his chapter which is all he is i love the idea of the primarches going to find the seed of life so idea is that he had sources in the imperium and went on his own to find said seed i have also reconsidered the name of the primarch but not the chapter suggestions please for the name. most of the units in this army are going to be Grey knight models and some normal sm mixed in and if you don't care for the idea don't comment

The glass ninja wrote:...if you don't care for the idea don't comment

Are you seriously only asking for praise?! No! You can't do that. You're asking for comments and input, you have to deal with negative opinions.

I actually don't care for your opinion i will do this any way

Hate to be a grammar Nazi but punctuation generally helps when your trying to make a point.

Also your idea really sounds almost to thrown together. There are bits of this and bits of that thrown in all mixing with each other. Now I'm not saying that it won't work I just think that to have it make sense it'll take a lot fine tuning.

OP, have a look at the DIY Chapter section on Bolter & Chainsword - especially the things not to do.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=132379

I would seriously consider dropping the "super" stuff and the new primarch. Making a space marine chapter that's so much better than the other and all secret as well is just pure mary-sue-ism.

If you want to have grey night models then that's fine - use the templar's codex and have them be knightly. You don't need all the secret super stuff.


More detailed commentary: (don't take these as critism, you can pull off almost anything if you have a good reason for it)

The idea is that the emperor cast out one of his sons who had super psychic abilities and was brilliant with technology

What's the story with his upbringing that makes him so good with technology? And why are his psychic abilities better than all the other primarchs?

but had the size and strength of a normal astarteas this son

Why is he small and why is that significant? (you made a point of mentioning it)

( who i plan to call cybrek) was given plans for power armour and sm weapons but also plans for dreadnought, terminator,and Nemesis force weapons (all by the grace of his father )

Can I suggest that instead of having plans for all these things they instead prize and treasure all the old and irreplaceable equipment. That's why it's all so archaic and decorated.
Re the nemesis force weapons - I get the impression that you're going to have lots of them. Why does the chapter have so many psykers? What do they do to prevent corruption and warp influence?

HE was then given a fleet and sent off to a distant part of the cosmos where he founded his chapter where he slowly began to advance his technology.

It doesn't make a lot of sense that he got a fleet and got sent away and then founded his chapter. Surely he founded his chapter before he left? Also, if he wasn't around in the heresy then it wouldn't be a chapter but a legion. (the chapters were created after the heresy)
Why was he sent away? Because of the risk posed by having so many psykers in his legion (maybe a bunch of the recuits develop psychic ability after receiving his geneseed?)

back in the empire all memory of him was destroyed.

Why was it destroyed?

I am going to name this chapter the knights of cybron

Why Cybron? Is that the planet where the primarch grew up?

i like the general idea, but it can be made a bit more inline with the fluff. i think that your primarch can just be one of the missing ones and not a new one, i think making a 21st one is really pushing it, but just saying its one of the missing ones isn't hurting your own concepts very much and making it easier to agree with.


now i would agree that the mech and psychic qualities have already been displayed, so why not mix them someway and make it a bit new. How about they use psychic ability and mech together? like they build great weapons of war through psychic power or vica versa, they gain psychic powers from the machines about them. this would make them less of a mesh of two other chapers. good idea overall thou but it needs some clean up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
scout-S6 has a lot of good points, and you should try to clean it up a bit and then add in those details to flesh out the story more.

Every time I see a "Ultra primarch Legion," I die a little.

OP, if you really want to develop this backstory for your chapter then go for it. Hell, I'll even help if you like (PM your email address).

But prepared for it to be a lot of work. My Index Astartes came in at 4.5 pages and my chapter is pretty boring, just a few equipment/organisation quirks to explain away. You've got huge things to explain.

For example, my Founding bulletpoint is a single sentence. Yours is probably going to be a page or two since you need to explain who your primarch is, which planet he grew up on, how he got his tech skills, what happened when the emperor found him, founding his legion, building the fleet, being sent away, being made secret, etc...

Scott-S6 wrote:OP, have a look at the DIY Chapter section on Bolter & Chainsword - especially the things not to do.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=132379

I just want to interject that it's probably not a good idea to take that advice, well meaning though it is. The 2 missing Primarchs and the 21st Cursed Founding exist expressly so people can be inventive with their custom chapters, so I don't know why he's telling people they shouldn't use them. Does he know better than Games Workshop?

To be honest, if you followed every point of his advice I think you couldn't help but come out with a very bland chapter.

To the OP: Just call Cybrek one of the missing Primarchs, and tone down the Mary Sue qualities and you'll have a chapter no-one can legitimately complain about. Say he got lost in the warp during the Great Crusade, and records of him were destroyed because the Imperium assumed he was a deserter who absconded with a legion, or something.

He doesn't say don't - the 21st founding is given specifically as an example of how you can do mixed geneseed and he points out that most people will object to you having either a 21st primarch or one of the missing two. (which is true)

That said, note the first two sentences of the Do Not section:

From here on out, the guidelines become a little more personal. Whilst all of them will be commonly accepted by a high majority of posters, there is nothing (bar the fluff) saying you cannot break them, and as always, a good story can overcome breaking the background

(emphasis mine)

The reason that being from the cursed founding or having a new primarch are in the Do Not section is because they're lazy plot devices. You don't need a super secret primarch or special geneseed to be an interesting chapter. If you really want to do it then okay but you need to really flesh the new primarch out well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rube wrote: The 2 missing Primarchs and the 21st Cursed Founding exist expressly so people can be inventive with their custom chapters, so I don't know why he's telling people they shouldn't use them. Does he know better than Games Workshop?

Can you produce a reference to back that up or is it just your own opinion?

Scott-S6 wrote:He doesn't say don't - the 21st founding is given specifically as an example of how you can do mixed geneseed and he points out that most people will object to you having either a 21st primarch or one of the missing two. (which is true)

Can you produce a reference to back up that most people will care or is it just your own opinion? ;P

Scott-S6 wrote:The reason that being from the cursed founding or having a new primarch are in the Do Not section is because they're lazy plot devices. You don't need a super secret primarch or special geneseed to be an interesting chapter. If you really want to do it then okay but you need to really flesh the new primarch out well.

Lazy plot devices only matter if you're writing a book. They exist as a pre-written hook so you can explain-away your chapter of leprechaun-marines when you're playing a game of miniature soldiers. That's true of all of 40k, not just the 21st founding and the missing Primarchs - it's a setting consisting entirely of lazy-plot devices so you can quickly justify any fight between any armies on whatever board you've chosen, from jungle to medieval town to shelled city.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Rube wrote: The 2 missing Primarchs and the 21st Cursed Founding exist expressly so people can be inventive with their custom chapters, so I don't know why he's telling people they shouldn't use them. Does he know better than Games Workshop?

Can you produce a reference to back that up or is it just your own opinion?

Because it was linked the background forum recently, here's Dan Abnett on the missing primarchs (the second question).

As for the 21st founding, that was explained in a WD a few years back. I don't have the WD to hand, so no references, sorry.

Rube wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:He doesn't say don't - the 21st founding is given specifically as an example of how you can do mixed geneseed and he points out that most people will object to you having either a 21st primarch or one of the missing two. (which is true)

Can you produce a reference to back up that most people will care or is it just your own opinion? ;P

The reaction it's gotten on this thread (and every other thread where it's come up) speaks for itself pretty well.

Rube wrote:Lazy plot devices only matter if you're writing a book. They exist as a pre-written hook so you can explain-away your chapter of leprechaun-marines when you're playing a game of miniature soldiers.

If someone's making a marine army where nemesis force weapons are common then they need a decent reason for that or it's going to get a major negative reaction all the time. Also, why use lazy plot devices when it's not that difficult to come up with something much better? Especially when the negative reaction those device get means you have to work that much harder to make it work?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Rube wrote: The 2 missing Primarchs and the 21st Cursed Founding exist expressly so people can be inventive with their custom chapters, so I don't know why he's telling people they shouldn't use them. Does he know better than Games Workshop?

Can you produce a reference to back that up or is it just your own opinion?

Because it was linked the background forum recently, here's Dan Abnett on the missing primarchs (the second question).

OP, I want to give you some advice, but before I do, one VERY quick question: Are you under fifteen years of age?

. . . wow, that sounded incredibly creepy. The reason I'm asking that, however, is that if you're a kid, you're probably thinking your idea is the coolest thing since sliced beans because when you're a kid, you love power fantasies and want your guys to be bigger and better than everyone else, because when you're a kid, everyone is bigger and better than you. And that's fine.

I, on the other hand, am a bitter and angry old man of no consequence who was kicked in the sack by life one too many times, and I'd rather make my guys also bitter and angry men of no consequence who were kicked in the sack by life, because misery loves company. And that's fine too.

The problem comes when fresh-faced youngsters with power fantasies cross paths with bitter and angry old men on the internets and ask them for advice on fluff. The old men get very angry and they reach for their heart pills and wind up chasing the youngsters off their lawns with canes. So instead of critiquing your fluff, I'm just going to say that as long as you follow the rules, I don't care if your chapter's primarch in the fluff is the Emperor's big brother who is stronger, more powerful, and prettier than him, but if you use that fluff as an excuse to break the rules, then you are a cheater and you can get off my fething lawn before I call the police.

I don't suggest asking that anywhere else but yes but i am but this isn't a fantasy i know i will get beat and i know i'll get snubed but i want to do something original and i am sick of 40k's stagnant storyline.I am also thinking on ways to flesh this out and will soon answer your Questions

i am also sorry to Skinnattittar for my second post i was tired and irritated at the time

The glass ninja wrote:I personally think this idea will be frowned upon buuuut i really want to start a unique sm army The idea is that the emperor cast out one of his sons who had super psychic abilities and was brilliant with technology but had the size and strength of a normal astarteas this son ( who i plan to call cybrek) was given plans for power armour and sm weapons but also plans for dreadnought, terminator,and Nemesis force weapons (all by the grace of his father ) HE was then given a fleet and sent off to a distant part of the cosmos where he founded his chapter where he slowly began to advance his technology. back in the empire all memory of him was destroyed.
I am going to name this chapter the knights of cybron

Opinions pleas and be honest

The emperor protects
Kayla mencha Kane guide you

I'd suggest reading this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_sue

I don't like it. I like even less how unreceptive you are to criticism. Honestly don't post a thread at all if you don't want to hear all opinions.

Skinnattittar wrote:

The glass ninja wrote:...if you don't care for the idea don't comment

Are you seriously only asking for praise?! No! You can't do that. You're asking for comments and input, you have to deal with negative opinions.

I was about to write that.
And seriously, you want to make something very extreme, and you don't come up with half a decent story to go with it, but expect only positive comments?

So you have an unknown primarch who was given tons of technological plans that nobody outside the Mechanicus has? On top of this, he's an outcast, yet the Emperor himself still gave him said plans? He was also a super duper psyker, more so than Magnus I'm assuming?

I don't think the Emperor had a primarch named Mary Sue to tell you the truth. Go back to the drawing board on this one.

Skinnattittar wrote:

The glass ninja wrote:...if you don't care for the idea don't comment

Are you seriously only asking for praise?! No! You can't do that. You're asking for comments and input, you have to deal with negative opinions.

Or to put it another way, "Glass ninja's should beware of people throwing stones."

In all seriousness to the OP, if you want to have a unique chapter with one of the missing primarchs you'll have to go nuts writting lots of (very good) fluff for it. Because (and I am very sorry to have to say this) the way you describe your armies premise is quite amaturish and silly.

I'm sure it sounded cool in your head when you thought it up.

To be honest, I think a better way to have a 'unique' Chapter would be to avoid trying to use one of the missing Primarchs, and just create a Chapter with an interesting back-story another way.


The missing Legions have been over-done to death. That's not a problem if you don't mind that your Chapter isn't particularly unique... but if unique is the main criteria, that's not the way to go.

Without the 'lost son' part, the idea suggested originally isn't bad... A sort of advance force sent off to form a beach-head in the outlying parts of the galaxy, and then forgotten about when some pencil-pusher deleted the wrong records...


Meanwhile, this thread was heading off the rails very early on. At this point, (particularly considering that it's only because the OP is still participating that it wasn't locked for being old anyway) I'm going to ask that people keep Dakka's rules on civil posting in mind before clicking the submit button from here on out.