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Hey everyone, I created a custom army for recreational purposes and my friends suggested I post it here before I begin playtesting. I'm only posting the troops, the rest of the "codex" is done, but the troops are the thing I'm not so sure about.

Troops:

Shadowstalkers – 23 points a model (the Squad Commander is an extra 55)

Unit Size: 5-15 Shadowstalkers
Special Rules: Combat tactics, Infiltrate, Stubborn (only as long as the squad commander is in the squad.)

Stats:
Shadowstalker: WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:3 W:1 I:5 A:2 Ld:8 Sv:4+
Shadowstalker Squad Commander: WS:5 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:2 I:6 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:4+ (6+)

Wargear:
-Camo cloak
-Thunder Rifle: R:24 S:5 AP:5 Assault: 2
-Combat Blade (x2)


Upgrades:
For each 5 Shadowstalkers one may replace their Thunder Rifle with a:
-AATT Missile Launcher R:48” S:8 AP:2 Heavy:1 – 15 points
-Thunder Cannon: R:30” S:5 AP:5 Assault:4 – 15 points
The Squad Commander may take Reinforced Armor (3+ save) – 5 points
------------------------------------
 
Brutes – 19 points a model (Squad Commander is an extra 50)

Unit Size: 5-15 Brutes.
Special Rules: Combat tactics, Stubborn (only as long as the squad commander is in the squad.)

Stats:
Brutes: WS:4 BS:3 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:4+
Brute Squad Commander: WS:5 BS:4 S:5 T:4 W:2 I:5 A:3 Ld:9 Sv:4+ (6+)

Wargear:
-Thunder Pistol: R:12” S:5 AP:5 Pistol.
-Close Combat Weapon

Upgrades:
-Any Brute May replace their Close Combat Weapon with a Greatsword (+1S) – 5 points
-Any Brute Squad Commander may take a teleporter, allowing the Brute squad to deepstrike onto the battlefield – 20 points
-Squad Commander may take Reinforced Armor (3+save) – 5 points
-For every 5 brutes, one Brute may replace his Close Combat Weapon with a Thunder Rifle - 15 points

The names of the units and equipment are temporary; if you have a problem with the name of a unit or piece of equipment in my army, please keep it to yourself.

The main question I'm asking: Are they broken? If so how should I adjust the point costs of units/upgrades? I am unlikely to change anything at this point but point costs.

EDIT: and before you ask. Do I have fluff for this army? Absolutely. Will I be posting it here? Probably not.

Interesting. Of all of the basic troops, your guys have the best basic weapons. The only ones that compete are Tau at R:30 Str5 Ap 5 Rapid Fire.

I would be worried about the fact that they get a 3+ cover save but they're only T3. I have to go but I'll look it over later.

Assault weapons with a 24" range? Sounds pretty crazy to me.

Yeah, I guess I could post a bit of fluff just to clear that up. Tau equipment went into the making of this army's weapons and armor. The rifles are actually just Multi-barreled Pulse Rifles.

23 points is a little light for a T3 marine with 3 base attacks in Close Combat.

Actuallty your shadowstalkers are As Good in cc as your Brutes; well better Tactically anyways I would Never see a reason to take Brutes over shadowstalkers

Basically you have adjusted Thousand Sons in your Shadowstalkers that are better in CC not Slow and Purposeful and get twice the shots at >12"-24" with Higher Str(which in this edition is better than low AP) While your squad commander is cheaper than an asp sorcerer he is still ridiculously good.

so how many points would you suggest for the Shadowstalkers and the Squad Commander exactly?

Kommissar Kel wrote:23 points is a little light for a T3 marine with 3 base attacks in Close Combat.

Not really. They're T3 with a 4+ save. Granted they can get a 3+ base save but then they are 28 points a model. That's more than PAGK.

Actuallty your shadowstalkers are As Good in cc as your Brutes; well better Tactically anyways I would Never see a reason to take Brutes over shadowstalkers

T4 is a pretty big reason. They're also LD9 stubborn.

Basically you have adjusted Thousand Sons in your Shadowstalkers that are better in CC not Slow and Purposeful and get twice the shots at >12"-24" with Higher Str(which in this edition is better than low AP) While your squad commander is cheaper than an asp sorcerer he is still ridiculously good.

They're not even remotely close to 1KSons. Please stop talking. The squad commander is also pretty good but not super good.

However, that being said, the Thunder Cannon is really stinking good.

I suppose I could raise the cost of the Thunder Cannon to 15 points, and add it as an option for the brute squad as well. It is assault after all.

Being able to put out two Str 5 shots at 24" while moving, and with a camo cloak to keep up a constant 3+ cover save is really good. Really good. Probably so good that a points balance alone won't be able to make a working option for basic troops. I'd probably cut it to a 24" assault weapon firing one shot.

Brutes could probably be five points cheaper, unless I'm missing an ability that makes them better than I realise.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Not really. They're T3 with a 4+ save. Granted they can get a 3+ base save but then they are 28 points a model. That's more than PAGK.

Yeah but they swing at the same initiative as marines

T4 is a pretty big reason. They're also LD9 stubborn.

the Shadowstalkers are also Ld 9 and Stubborn so the only reason to take them is the T4 which you then lose out on the ranged aspect.

They're not even remotely close to 1KSons. Please stop talking. The squad commander is also pretty good but not super good.

Hmm, lets look at it:
Range 24" move and fire (just like 1000 sons)
23 points/ model (just like 1000 sons)
Full 6" move and fire to full effect weapons (Better then 1000 sons)
Str 5, 2 shot at full range weapons (Better than 1000 sons)
AP 5 weaponry (not at all like 1000 sons, but in this edition with it's ubiquitous cover can be ignored as a drawback)
expensive upgrade character (just like 1000 sons, but gives stubborn, an extra attack and higher Initiative instead of psychic powers)
You are right they are way better than 1000 sons I should just shut up. After all a unit of 15 puts out 30 str 5 shots with a 30" threat range and if it makes it into combat has 4(5 on the charge) Str 4 attacks at I 5 and 42(56 on the charge) Str 4 attacks at I 4

Kommissar Kel, we get your point. You were talking about how great a 15 man squad was? Keep in mind that an unupgraded 15 man squad with a Squad Commander is 400 points exactly, for a unit that drops like flies outside of cover.

sebster, as I said I'm not going to be changing anything but point values at the time.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Not really. They're T3 with a 4+ save. Granted they can get a 3+ base save but then they are 28 points a model. That's more than PAGK.

Yeah but they swing at the same initiative as marines

T4 is a pretty big reason. They're also LD9 stubborn.

the Shadowstalkers are also Ld 9 and Stubborn so the only reason to take them is the T4 which you then lose out on the ranged aspect.

They're not even remotely close to 1KSons. Please stop talking. The squad commander is also pretty good but not super good.

Hmm, lets look at it:
Range 24" move and fire (just like 1000 sons)
23 points/ model (just like 1000 sons)
Full 6" move and fire to full effect weapons (Better then 1000 sons)
Str 5, 2 shot at full range weapons (Better than 1000 sons)
AP 5 weaponry (not at all like 1000 sons, but in this edition with it's ubiquitous cover can be ignored as a drawback)
expensive upgrade character (just like 1000 sons, but gives stubborn, an extra attack and higher Initiative instead of psychic powers)
You are right they are way better than 1000 sons I should just shut up. After all a unit of 15 puts out 30 str 5 shots with a 30" threat range and if it makes it into combat has 4(5 on the charge) Str 4 attacks at I 5 and 42(56 on the charge) Str 4 attacks at I 4

I think you forgot to post your comment there, I'm interested to see what you have to say in response to Kommissar Kel.

I would really like to read more of this fluff and rules just out of general curiosity...

I generally don't post fluff on Dakka, mainly for the reason that I don't know much of the official fluff. So things I create conflict with things Games Workshop has created, I get yelled at, and it ends up ruining my day. So I just stopped bothering with it.

I see... that can generally be a problem...

How can you conflict with fluff that doesn't exist? That's pretty silly my friend.

When you're making units I see that you have broken down the individual cost of ability per point mechanic that GW uses and I applaud you for that. But you're completly missing the appreciating cost of stacking so many abilities into one unit.

I'm with Kommisar Kel on this, I don't think you put any thought into this other then "What can I make that won't get beaten in any situation?". That's not to say that you made an unstoppable troop here, but you left nothing for your opponent to work with.

- Can I outshoot them? Not with a BS:4 S:5 AP:5 Assault 2 weapon at 24".

- Should I engage them in CC? Hmm Base Attack:2 S:4 with an armor save of 4+, nope there "kiddie balanced" there as well.

- Then surley my Armor will do the trick? Nope, because they have options for Anti-Tank at 48" just so that you as a player can don't have to turn your brain to not get tabled.

- Can I play off of their Moral? Nope, even if you had a way to reliably get passed a 50/50 armor save (of which the squad leader has an invulnerable 6+ for no apparent reason) a squad of 15x would require you to kill 4 to even make them roll for a test. Then they have an Ld:8 or Ld:9 if you haven't killed the Squad Leader who has 2 wounds and an invulnerable save.

That rant was meant to be a reality check not a flame if you took offense to it then I want yout to know I couldn't possibly care less about your feelings. There is no justification for these units to exist. SM's are SUPPOSED to be the best units in the game so that little kids getting into the game still have a chance to win. Us grown ups play with armies that require us to think.

By the way, what is the point of having the brutes? You obviosly made them as an after thought.

EDIT: Also points are NOT the only deliminator in this game. When you have Troops like this then you really don't need much else to back them up so putting points anywhere else won't matter. These "Troops" of yours should be Elites so that the FOC limits the number of squads you have for these guys at a time. After doing this I think the Brutes could make fine Troops with some polishing.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:How can you conflict with fluff that doesn't exist? That's pretty silly my friend.

When you're making units I see that you have broken down the individual cost of ability per point mechanic that GW uses and I applaud you for that. But you're completly missing the appreciating cost of stacking so many abilities into one unit.

I'm with Kommisar Kel on this, I don't think you put any thought into this other then "What can I make that won't get beaten in any situation?". That's not to say that you made an unstoppable troop here, but you left nothing for your opponent to work with.

- Can I outshoot them? Not with a BS:4 S:5 AP:5 Assault 2 weapon at 24".

- Should I engage them in CC? Hmm Base Attack:2 S:4 with an armor save of 4+, nope there "kiddie balanced" there as well.

- Then surley my Armor will do the trick? Nope, because they have options for Anti-Tank at 48" just so that you as a player can don't have to turn your brain to not get tabled.

- Can I play off of their Moral? Nope, even if you had a way to reliably get passed a 50/50 armor save (of which the squad leader has an invulnerable 6+ for no apparent reason) a squad of 15x would require you to kill 4 to even make them roll for a test. Then they have an Ld:8 or Ld:9 if you haven't killed the Squad Leader who has 2 wounds and an invulnerable save.

That rant was meant to be a reality check not a flame if you took offense to it then I want yout to know I couldn't possibly care less about your feelings. There is no justification for these units to exist. SM's are SUPPOSED to be the best units in the game so that little kids getting into the game still have a chance to win. Us grown ups play with armies that require us to think.

By the way, what is the point of having the brutes? You obviosly made them as an after thought.

EDIT: Also points are NOT the only deliminator in this game. When you have Troops like this then you really don't need much else to back them up so putting points anywhere else won't matter. These "Troops" of yours should be Elites so that the FOC limits the number of squads you have for these guys at a time. After doing this I think the Brutes could make fine Troops with some polishing.

Sounds pretty hot for supposedly not flaming. Why don't you calmly explain what you think he should do to fix them rather than just point out all the flaws?

Oh and by the way I wouldn't count yourself a "grown-up" with a post like this.

CrazyThang wrote:

ComputerGeek01 wrote:How can you conflict with fluff that doesn't exist? That's pretty silly my friend.

When you're making units I see that you have broken down the individual cost of ability per point mechanic that GW uses and I applaud you for that. But you're completly missing the appreciating cost of stacking so many abilities into one unit.

I'm with Kommisar Kel on this, I don't think you put any thought into this other then "What can I make that won't get beaten in any situation?". That's not to say that you made an unstoppable troop here, but you left nothing for your opponent to work with.

- Can I outshoot them? Not with a BS:4 S:5 AP:5 Assault 2 weapon at 24".

- Should I engage them in CC? Hmm Base Attack:2 S:4 with an armor save of 4+, nope there "kiddie balanced" there as well.

- Then surley my Armor will do the trick? Nope, because they have options for Anti-Tank at 48" just so that you as a player can don't have to turn your brain to not get tabled.

- Can I play off of their Moral? Nope, even if you had a way to reliably get passed a 50/50 armor save (of which the squad leader has an invulnerable 6+ for no apparent reason) a squad of 15x would require you to kill 4 to even make them roll for a test. Then they have an Ld:8 or Ld:9 if you haven't killed the Squad Leader who has 2 wounds and an invulnerable save.

That rant was meant to be a reality check not a flame if you took offense to it then I want yout to know I couldn't possibly care less about your feelings. There is no justification for these units to exist. SM's are SUPPOSED to be the best units in the game so that little kids getting into the game still have a chance to win. Us grown ups play with armies that require us to think.

By the way, what is the point of having the brutes? You obviosly made them as an after thought.

EDIT: Also points are NOT the only deliminator in this game. When you have Troops like this then you really don't need much else to back them up so putting points anywhere else won't matter. These "Troops" of yours should be Elites so that the FOC limits the number of squads you have for these guys at a time. After doing this I think the Brutes could make fine Troops with some polishing.

Sounds pretty hot for supposedly not flaming. Why don't you calmly explain what you think he should do to fix them rather than just point out all the flaws?

Oh and by the way I wouldn't count yourself a "grown-up" with a post like this.

+1 QTF Way to come off sounding like a total spanker Computergeek. As for the OP i know you don't want to change what they do/ have, but having such a powerful gun on a basic unit makes it difficult for me to see this unit being balanced, but i digress as you've made your opinion clear on sebster's post

Ok, I can see that I didn't put much in here to encourage the OP and I was blunt with my opinion that could sound as if I was attacking them. Strange I'm usually more diplomatic then this.

Anyway CrazyThang is right, the point of this board is to help and encourage people and all though I was put off by the statement from the OP saying they weren't looking to change anything but the points I'll express my opinion anyway.

For your Shadow Stalkers I'll leave the name alone because I have no fluff to work off of but this doesn't say line infantry to me.

- As I said before if you made these guys Elites then you could keep a good deal of what you have.

- The invulnerable save on the Squad Commander doesn't make any sence without fluff to back it up.

- You're trying to say I want a unit that can beat the shootiest armys in the game (Tau\IG) while they run up and assault the fightiest armys in the game (Orks\Nids). This is the biggest problem that I have with your Troops, it would be more balanced to split the strengths between the two entries you have but instead the SS come off as extremly OP and the Brutes seem like weak sauce.

Without fluff or supporting units it's hard to suggest anything else.

Thanks for backing me up there guys.

ComputerGeek01. That was quite a punch; don't say it wasn't a flame post, because it was. But I don't care, I'll just see if I can clear some things up.

You have to look at this thing from a certain perspective. A full unit of Shadowstalkers with a Squad Commander, and 3 Thunder Cannons comes to a total of 422 points.

Can you out-shoot them model to model? No. Could 422 points worth of Tau Fire warriors, Eldar Dire Avengers, even Space Marine Tactical Soldiers? Hell yes, easily.

Can you beat them in combat model to model? Not usually. Could 422 points of boyz, berzerkers, or Blood Angels? Again, Hell yes, easily.

I find the comment about the AATT missile launcher a bit off, I don't even want to bother naming all the units in all the armies that have an option for a long-range S8+ gun in their squads. you shouldn't be complaining about such a basic piece of equipment.

I couldn't tell if your Space Marine comment was about game play stats or fluff. Fluff-wise, Space Marines are much better than this army "These models are Scale to fluff, if marines were scale to fluff." If you're complaining about stats, I don't know what to tell you. For such a high point cost for units that are comparatively squishy, I don't see a problem.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, as far as supporting units go, I can clear that up. I don't have any Transport vehicles for my units, I don't have a specific tank-hunting unit, and I don't have any jump infantry/bikes. And the only thing in my Heavy Support section is an Artillery Cannon for fire support. The troops and HQs are really the only strong points to my army.

As for the squad commander's Inv save. I don't want to sound cheesy or childish by saying "He can Matrix his way out of the way of bullets" But that's essentially what he does, though it's more he just knows how to position himself in cover or around other units to avoid getting hit.

A single (yes, a SINGLE) Leman Russ Eradicator could annihilate that entire 422 points of Shadowstalkers. Str6 Ap4 Large Blast, Ignores Cover.

So because you've priced them high I'm supposed to dedicate that much of my army to stop them?

Scenerio: You have 15x SS in an area. Your argument is that I should not have any problem bringing 422 points of my troops to that area to contest them. Think about the amount of cover on a normal sized board, how many troops I would need to dedicate not to kill but to even hold your troops back. The picture that should be forming in your mind is that I have a large knot of troops in a small area of the board basically waiting for your move. If I'm Tau, IG or Eldar you'll assault me while shooting in the same turn so your 30 S:5 AP:5 shots predicate your 45 S:4 CC attacks, in close combat my numbers won't matter because the other squads can't help that first turn you just chop one squad after another. If I'm Orks or Nids you'll sit back and shoot until whatever is left is in range to finally assault your army that will get 30x S:4 attacks from cover or at I:5 before I make my first strike how many do you think will make it that close? How many will survive the first round of combat? Then you have a 4+ armor save for my returned effort. ALL of this is in ONE UNIT you never have to think about who you are fighting and what you should take, and that doesn't seem OP to you?

So when you ask if these units can fight against what you've drawn up here the answer is clearly no they can't.

In a 1500 point game I would only be able to field 2-3 full squads, while still having points left over for an HQ choice. So really it's not a problem that you will need to deticate such a vast amount of your force to stop them, because there's nothing else that you need to stop. if I have 2 troop choices and an HQ, I can hold 2 objectives. Your only goal will be to reclaim those objectives. Any other objectives would be open to you for grabs.

Granted, I could field Multiple small units to hold the objectives, but with nothing left to hold your forces back, how long is a 4+ armor save going to keep me alive? not long.

Your points make sense, and have got me thinking. Believe me I'm not ruling anything you say out. Wednesday next week I should have a chance to play-test this army. So we'll see how well the army does in practice then.

Dedrith wrote:sebster, as I said I'm not going to be changing anything but point values at the time.

Why? Are they set for publication? Dude, seriously, this is really early in the process to declare things set in stone.

And you need to think about my point a bit more, armies with basic troops that are really, really quality are extremely hard to balance. The armies built with better troops than marines have always been the problem children of game balance, such as Necrons and Grey Knights.

I actually really like the idea of a unit dependant on a good cover save that can keep moving while putting fire out to 24", and I think they'd be interesting to play against. But giving them such a good gun and then balancing it with a really high points cost will likely make them fairly disfunctional in play - either the other guy has a gun that ignores cover and you'll get slaughtered, or he's got a range of small arms and high AP weapons and be unable to harm you.

Dedrith wrote:I generally don't post fluff on Dakka, mainly for the reason that I don't know much of the official fluff. So things I create conflict with things Games Workshop has created, I get yelled at, and it ends up ruining my day. So I just stopped bothering with it.

I wouldn't let that worry you. GW changes the fluff all the time to include new armies. And people here will yell at you regardless.

Right, first off fluff is THE most important thing to consider when making up anything from scratch. Once you have the fluff sorted the rest will flow so much easier. Secure back ground makes it much easier to write any justify any rules you want to write. If you write things that majorly contradict the background then people will correct you. You may get yelled at but man-up and deal with it, its only people on the internet.

At the moment I dont know anything about this army/race of creatures. Are they humans? Are they alien? If so are they vaguely humanoid or are they mostly tentacles?

You mentioned they use tau equipment. Are they part of the tau empire? Are they mercenaries or are they at war with the tau? If they are then are they capable of manufacturing adequate weapons of their own? If not then surely tau weapons would be a rarity and unlikely for basic troops to be carrying. Why are their weapons assault when pule rifles are rapid fire weapons?

Finally asking us to help you balance a unit in isolation without seeing the rest of the army is hard. Some armies are strengthened or weakened by a single choice that lets the rest be more/less powerful. Tau for example are let down by their very poor troop choices, even if the rest of the army is reasonable.

definitely superior in balancing terms to the last thread you put these guys on.

and as far as the brutes are concerned, I believe they were thrown in to offer a cheaper unit with slightly superior cc ability (if you have ever played two armies, on T4 and one T3 then you know it makes a world of difference) and inferior firepower.

quit whining about fluff, I didn't read an ounce of fluff on my Dark Eldar until the week after I got the codex

Thanks BIBBI.

I playtested my army against a friend of mine who plays IG. He's not the best player and I did win the match. He did however, claim that my army was well balanced. Any thoughts?

maybe for your shadowstalkers commander, you should call him a shadoweaver... seems to fit afterall

Nah, wouldn't fit with the fluff.