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Hello all, new player here and I would like your help.

I created a list below and really like it (seems fun to paint!!) but I don't think I have enough 'Troop' units.

HQ
Daemon Prince - Wings, MoS & Lash (155)
Daemon Prince - Wings, MoS & Lash (155)

Troop
10x Berzerkers - SC with PF (250)
10x Berzerkers - SC with PF (250)
Rhino - Extra Armor & Combi-Melta (60)
Rhino - Extra Armor & Combi-Melta (60)

Fast Attack
10x Raptors - Icon of Glory, 2 Meltaguns, Aspiring Champion with PF. (270)

Heavy Support
x2 Obliterators (150)
x2 Obliterators (150)

Comes out to 1500 exact.

Is this list okay or does it really need more troops? I've tried modifying it a little bit to add in another squad of Berzerkers and have some ideas but I would like to know how other people would do it.

An example of what I did was to add another Rhino and squad of berzerkers but downgrade them all to 8 each. Then took out the Rhino combi-meltas, 1 obliterator and 5 raptors. (I feel like I'm losing a lot though just to add another squad of Zerkers).

Also, an alternative to taking out the above from the example, I could instead get rid of one of the DPs and downgrade the raptors to squad of 8.

What would you do? Thanks!

I don't know if you're sold on Raptors, but I don't really care for them personally. FWIW, I would drop the Raptors for another Rhino full of Zerkers. It's nearly a straight up trade. Everything else looks pretty sweet.

If anything, it's a *little* bit light on antitank because really, those combimeltas are sort of iffy and lascannons aren't exactly reliable.

Here's a thought: if you do drop the Raptors, stick icons on all of the Berzerker squads so you can optionally deep strike your Oblits accurately for the close-in melta game.

Welcome to Dakka.

I think a Squad of CSM with 2 meltas in a rhino would be better than the Raptors and combi-meltas on rhinos.

2 Lash Princes? Cheesy. I'm not a fan. Nothing wrong tactically, but it feels wrong.

Iboshi2 wrote:Welcome to Dakka.

I think a Squad of CSM with 2 meltas in a rhino would be better than the Raptors and combi-meltas on rhinos.

2 Lash Princes? Cheesy. I'm not a fan. Nothing wrong tactically, but it feels wrong.

You can shut down lash with hoods, and they don't always work. It's not nearly as "cheesy" as dual lash sorcerors that you can hide inside of 9-man plague marines squads inside Rhinos.

I don't see anything wrong with it. Lash-whatevers seem to be the best HQ choice in the CSM dex. Might as well use 'em.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:You can shut down lash with hoods, and they don't always work. It's not nearly as "cheesy" as dual lash sorcerors that you can hide inside of 9-man plague marines squads inside Rhinos.

I don't see anything wrong with it. Lash-whatevers seem to be the best HQ choice in the CSM dex. Might as well use 'em.

I'm not here to morally censor the list, I was just making sure he knew that some players are of the opinion that dual lash is cheesy.

Lash-whatevers seem to be the best HQ choice in the CSM dex

I agree, I think they are the easiest to use choices.

List is fine, its light on troops because you have raptors. If you cut out the beserkers for regular csms, and ditch the extra armor on the rhinos and cut out a few bodies here and there... you could squeeze in a third troop selection. Or... upgrade the beserkers to nurgle marines and you'll have two large hard to kill troop units and you won't need a third troop choice. I'd run your list as you wrote it, mostly it depends on where you play to determine if you can get away with just 2 troops.

it sounds pretty good i think i would have trouble bringing it down but i think you would do better replacing the bezerhkers with plauge marine just because they are hard as nails and great for holding objectives.

I've always wanted to see how raptors with wing DP work together because I've had princes get hit by tar pits and either worn down with constant wounds or just sit there because of a huge squad. I would recommend another troop choice for taking points and holding objectives.

I watched a list similar to this win the preliminaries for 'Ard Boyz at my local shop. The differences were (other than his list being 2500 points):
Both his Princes were Nurgle/Waprtime
He ran naked Rhinos (no Extra Armour, no Combi)
He had no Raptors
He had squads of Plague Marines
He had 3 Squads of 2xOblits

The Nurgle DPS is something I never would have bothered with, since T6 is still woundable on 2s with STR8+ weapon. But the fact that you need a STR7+ to have a good chance of causing a wound means that he's not using those high-STR weapons to blow up armour because he's trying to put holes in your Princes. Lash is very opponent specific, and doesn't scale very well against Mechanized 5th edition-style forces. I would recommend one Lash Prince max, or none at all.

Naked Rhinos are best ™

Raptors have their uses, and you obviously plan on using them as Tank killers. Raptors are generally frowned upon by most CSM players on this forum. Havos with 4 Autocannons is a popular alternative.

The general rule of thumb is one Troop unit/10-models per 500 points. At 1500 points, you're one Troop unit shy. 8 is Khorne's favorite number, so you could recoup 84 points by reducing each Berserker Squad by 2. You can also gain another 50 points by "nakeding™" your Khorne Rhinos. If your Raptors are going to be Tank killers, it doesn't need to be a 10-man Squad. Reduce it to the minimum and put the points into a 3rd scoring unit.

Oblits are great. Would be nice to have a 3rd Heavy Support choice, be it a Defiler, a Predator, or another Squad of Oblits.

Stop talking about my list.....oh wait....I don't use it anymore cause I get no games with it

Sanctjud wrote:Stop talking about my list.....oh wait....I don't use it anymore cause I get no games with it

LOL Sanct

Wow, a lot of responses, thank you all. I am still soaking the info in.

The reason I chose lash princes is because out of the HQ's it seems the only competitive HQ's are either Lash/Nurgle DP's. With the Nurgle DPs, the model looks.. odd with wings; like a grotesque flying abomination with wings.. haha. Not sure what other HQ's are Viable. Maybe Lash DP with Kharne(?)

I'm also gathering that it seems Plague Marines are favored over the rest of the chaos troops, where berzerkers may not be very competitive and raptors, even less so.

After reading the comments, I've compiled another list below, but TBH it seems more cookie cutter and not as fun as the Berzerkers and Raptors. Again, I'm new and getting my butt kicked trying to use Berzerkers and Raptors probably wouldn't be fun either.

HQ
Daemon Prince - Wings, MoN & WT (175)
Daemon Prince - Wings, MoN & WT (175)

Troop
8x Plague Marines - 2 Meltaguns, AC /w PF (244)
8x Plague Marines - 2 Meltaguns, AC /w PF (244)
8x Plague Marines - 2 Meltaguns, AC /w PF (244)
Rhino - (35)
Rhino - (35)
Rhino - (35)

Heavy Support
x2 Obliterators (150)
x2 Obliterators (150)

13 points left over that I could use to add icons. Would I be able to substitute a squad of plague marines for berzerkers or is that not a very good trade?

Thanks all again for the responses, all of them are appreciated; very very helpful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cooked up another alternative list with the provided feedback, possibly something like this?

HQ
Daemon Prince - Wings, MoS & Lash (155)

Troop
8x Plague Marines - 2 Meltaguns, AC /w PF (244)
8x Plague Marines - 2 Meltaguns, AC /w PF (244)
8x Berzerkers - SC /w PF (208)
Rhino - (35)
Rhino - (35)
Rhino - (35)

Fast Attack
8x - Raptors - Icon of Glory, 2 Meltaguns, AC /w PF (230)

Heavy Support
x2 Obliterators (150)
x2 Obliterators (150)

14 points left over here. I could actually get rid of the raptors entirely in this list to add Kharne with extra points left over to convert to a Nurgle DP /w WT. Or swap it around so I have 2 squads of zerkers and a 10 squad of Plagues.

Thinking outloud..

Plague Marines aren't the answer for every situation. They are very hardy, and make ideal Objective Campers due to FNP. I like to use Plague Marines for "home base" Objectives. But switching to 3 Squads of PMs is not necessarily the answer.

You had Khorne Berserkers in your initial list, and I still think they are a good choice for going after enemy Objectives.

Vanilla CSM also make very good troop choices since they are cheap yet effective. I would almost recommend one squad of each (PM, KB, CSM).

Your PMs are costing you 244 for eight.
KBs would cost you 208 for eight
Chaos Space Marines would cost you 210 for 10

A 10-man Squad of regular CSM gaining a second special weapon you can go one of two ways: Long-range Campers, or Anti-Armour attackers.
- Long-range Campers is a Melta or Plasma gun for the first special weapon, giving you 12-24" Anti-Armour when they come charging, and either an Autocannon or a Missile Launcher for the second, giving you a 36-48" range to attack armour or solo targets. Put them either in a building, or preferably in a Rhino shooting out the top hatch. They can't be targeted until the Rhino is Wrecked or Destroyed. Ideally, you park the Rhino in the ruins where you can still shoot, but gain a +4 cover save from 50% concealment.
- Anti-Armour is simply making both special weapons Melta. Put them in a Rhino. Move up 12", Disembark out 2", and fire 12" with 2 Meltas and hopefully pop your Armour target.

I wanted to help with your list. Then I saw your two HQ's. No just kidding. That's a sturdy list and still about the only winning list with Chaos Space Marines. Not much else to say, it should do well. Just watch out for plasma.

Thanks Mizzri, list building is becoming a little more clearer now picturing objectives. I'm starting to lean more towards Nurgle DPs as things are getting more mechanized.

Crafted another list to see what it looks like. I actually like this one, seems fun to play AND paint.

HQ
Daemon Prince - Wings, MoN & WT (175)

Troop
10x Chaos Marines - Icon of Glory, 2 Meltaguns, AC /w PF (220)
10x Plague Marines - 2 Meltaguns, AC /w PF (290)
8x Berzerkers - SC /w PF (229)
Rhino - (35)
Rhino - (35)
Rhino - (35)

Fast Attack
5x - Raptors - Icon of Glory, 2 Meltaguns, AC /w PF (170)

Heavy Support
x2 Obliterators (150)
x2 Obliterators (150)

Some points left over to tweak here and there but this is the basic list.

I don't know why I can't get rid of these raptors, they look too cool! Though, I should probably take them out for another Nurgle DP.

List building is an art

Berserkers can't have Meltaguns, so take a look at your totals again.
Drop a couple of Plague Marines, and use the 40 points elsewhere. The fact that they don't lose special weapons for being below a 10-man Squad, and the fact that they are so durable, means you need less of them.
Raptors have their uses. If they work for you, by all means

One thing to watch out for is Power Fist usage. You know your KBs will put theirs to use, but what about the other two Squads, and what about the one on your Raptors? Play a few games and see if that PF is actually getting used. If it's not, each one of those is 40 points that could probably be spent better somewhere else.

Thanks to everyone for the comments and help!

Ok, here is the army list that I think I will be putting together.

HQ
Daemon Prince - Wings, MoN & WT (175)
Daemon Prince - Wings, MoN & WT (175)

Troop
8x Plague Marines - 2 Meltaguns, AC /w PF (244)
8x Plague Marines - 2 Meltaguns, AC /w PF (244)
10x Berzerkers - SC /w PF (250)
Rhino - (35)
Rhino - (35)
Rhino - (35)

Heavy Support
x2 Obliterators (150)
x2 Obliterators (150)

The Nurgle DPs are too good to pass up vs the Lash ones and can also work in tandem with the Berzerkers.

Choosing Plague marines over CSM. Rather have 8 Plagues than 10 CSMs in this 1500. 1 Squad of Plagues will defend an objective and the other will help push.

Oblits will be split into 2 groups to help support where needed.

That list looks fine. Your DPs are tough and mobile, you've got PMs to camp and Berzerkers to go after the enemy.

As for HQs, DPs aren't the only competitive choice. Lash sorcerors hidden in squads are arguably the most competitive due to your ability to hide them in transports, and then inside of squads. Then again, sometimes Lash gets shut down completely so you can't rely on it. Psychic powers in general are less than reliable.

I'm not sure if Kharn is competitive but he is a lot of fun to play.

IMO the princes are kind of expensive at 1500. I'd think keeping one just stock is decent.

Troops and Hvy's are ok.

Just beware of splitting your forces or forgetting about objectives.