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I'm working my way through the Horus Heresy. Currently reading Mechanicum.

I haven't speculated why the Emperor, as such a potent psyker didn't know about his sons turning against him....

But one planet away, with adepts accessing and creating warp-fused weaponry from a vault the emperor sealed.....


How can he NOT know about the evil crap going on one planet away?

maybe he had enough on his mind already he was unable to multi-task, or was thinking so much about the current empire, and ways to make it better that he wasn't watching his own troops or the things going around about him. His psyker energy could have been focusing on one task with little left to be utilized at thinking of other things.

does that make sense?

I think the idea is that the Dragon is a Ctan that the Emperor imprisoned on Mars so that it could influence the humans there to found Cult Mechnaicum. This would not only provide his future Terran empire with technologies and manufacturing capabilities but also prepare the Martian acceptance of him as the Omnissiah.

It's my personal belief that the Emperor engineered the entire heresy for his own purposes. From there I can see three possibilities: it worked exactly as he planned OR it just barely worked (and is still working) after everything that could go wrong did OR the whole thing was a failure. I'm partial to the second explanation myself.

I thought that the Emporer did know the Horus would betray him, but couldn't believe tht his favoured son would turn against him. I guess he just has an amazing denial system.

Also Manchu, what do you mean by the Emporer "engineering" the Heresy for himself, what would he gain from it?

He lost half his Space Marines and has to live on life support, not the best outcome for him.

I see pyskers much like mages. For everyone on your side, there is another one just trying to block you, making the emperor blind to whatever they wanted when they choose.

However as CHAOS has better cookies.. we win.

BTW how far along is the series now last I read was book six.

The Emperor was busy working on the webway gate that me found on earth. That was the big secret of why he had to leave the crusade, leaving Horus in charge as Warmaster. You can check that out for sure if you read The Thousand Sons HH novel

I think what Manchu meant about the Emperor 'arranging' the Heresy to suit his own ends is exactly that.

Manchu is suggesting the possibility that the Emperor planned, manipulated, and set into motion the Horus Heresy. Why?

I think that the WH40K universe (and to a much greater extent, the Horus Heresy novels) are written with a lot of heavy religious allegory. Specifically, jaded European Christian religious allegory.

It is commonly theorized by those with a more bleak outlook on life that God specifically orchestrated the rebellion of the angels (where the devil rebelled against him) precisely in order to have a foe. They say that since God knows everything, he must have known the rebellion was coming. Since God created the angels with no free will, then Satan's actions must have been in accordance with God's wishes. See any parallels to the Emperor, Horus, and Horus Heresy?

There are other religious parallels within the 40k world (such as an oppressive, dogmatic faith which bears little resemblance to where it started, and preaches a set of messages that have little to do with what the being they were founded in the name of taught) which I feel are meant to provide a way for people to connect better with the fiction. Since it so closely mirrors something from real life, it makes the world seem more realistic, even if we don't pick up on it consciously.

Manchu wrote:I think the idea is that the Dragon is a Ctan that the Emperor imprisoned on Mars so that it could influence the humans there to found Cult Mechnaicum.

Hey, there's a thought. The void dragon and the Cult Mechanicus were around long before the rise of the Emperor. What you're suggesting makes a lot of sense, especially considering how much the C'tan hate psykers. That would've been something to see!

Jimsolo wrote:They say that since God knows everything, he must have known the rebellion was coming. Since God created the angels with no free will, then Satan's actions must have been in accordance with God's wishes.

The problem I see is that people often equate God's omniscience with total control and lack of free will. ie, "God knows everything I'm going to do, so he's somehow causing/controlling it because he doesn't step in and interfere," or something along those lines. But I just don't see that as the case; just because I know what's going to happen doesn't absolve anyone from their actions/decisions. With the whole satan parallell, it's the same thing: you need a nemesis, but you don't go create one (and who says that the angels were created with no free will?). I think the appropriate aphorism is that God simply gave satan enough rope and he went and hung himself.

Still though, the Emperor's not really a god, just a really really potent man. I have a hard time believing that the "current" state of the Imperium (or any of the intervening states since the Heresy,) are anything like what he had hoped for mankind...unless something really really big is brewing, and "we" make some exponential leaps in growth when our doom is looming large... Hmm...

Jimsolo wrote:It is commonly theorized by those with a more bleak outlook on life that God specifically orchestrated the rebellion of the angels (where the devil rebelled against him) precisely in order to have a foe. They say that since God knows everything, he must have known the rebellion was coming. Since God created the angels with no free will, then Satan's actions must have been in accordance with God's wishes. See any parallels to the Emperor, Horus, and Horus Heresy?

There is an awful lot of religious similarity in the way the Emperor is SEEN in the 41st Millenium. In which case the argument of the Emperor orchestrating everything makes sense. However, although the Emperor is worshipped as an omnipotent God in the 41st Milennium, the evidence suggests that, while he had godlike physcial and psychic powers, he wasn't able to 'predict the future'. It's just not something he ever exhibits any evidence of in the novels.

The inhabitants of the 41st Milennium look upon him like people looked upon God in previous centuries of our history - an entity that is not only aware of everything you do, but takes a hand in it. However, the Horus Heresy books never suggest this, and never suggest the Emperor actually had these powers.

Plus, of course, that he's repeatedly listed as being proud to the point of arrogance/hubris. (John Gramaticus in Legion?)

Gearhead wrote:

Manchu wrote:I think the idea is that the Dragon is a Ctan that the Emperor imprisoned on Mars so that it could influence the humans there to found Cult Mechanicum.

Hey, there's a thought. The void dragon and the Cult Mechanicus were around long before the rise of the Emperor. What you're suggesting makes a lot of sense, especially considering how much the C'tan hate psykers. That would've been something to see!

But the C'tan as opposed to any use of the warp wouldn't support the traitors siding with Horus. Those called "dark" mechanicum
did forge demon-weapons, creations of warp-denizens and tech.
Using a C'tan to shield the tech-centre of the imperium makes more sense.

Still waiting for a source of the part "void" in the name of the C'tan.

Gearhead wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:They say that since God knows everything, he must have known the rebellion was coming. Since God created the angels with no free will, then Satan's actions must have been in accordance with God's wishes.

The problem I see is that people often equate God's omniscience with total control and lack of free will. ie, "God knows everything I'm going to do, so he's somehow causing/controlling it because he doesn't step in and interfere," or something along those lines. But I just don't see that as the case; just because I know what's going to happen doesn't absolve anyone from their actions/decisions. With the whole satan parallell, it's the same thing: you need a nemesis, but you don't go create one (and who says that the angels were created with no free will?). I think the appropriate aphorism is that God simply gave satan enough rope and he went and hung himself.

Still though, the Emperor's not really a god, just a really really potent man. I have a hard time believing that the "current" state of the Imperium (or any of the intervening states since the Heresy,) are anything like what he had hoped for mankind...unless something really really big is brewing, and "we" make some exponential leaps in growth when our doom is looming large... Hmm...

I am not trying to start any kind of religious debate. These aren't my views. They are just views that are commonly held. (And to answer your question about who says angels have no free will? The Catholic church.) I didn't intend to proselytize. (In point of fact, these views do not reflect my own) However, I believe that this religious viewpoint is strongly mirrored in the 40k universe.

And the Inquisition agrees with you. Just because Horus may have been manipulated into his actions by an insidious Emperor, doesn't make him any less evil. And it doesn't mean he didn't have to pay for his crimes.

But, once again, not my religious opinions. I don't think those opinions are necessarily true, just that they are a strong basis for the 40k universe.

What caused the Primarchs to be scattered? Perhaps the Emperor allowed this to happen--sorting the wheat from the chaff? Perhaps the Emperor gambled away Primarchs (i.e., distracted the Ruinous Powers) to buy humanity time while he mastered the webways. Magnus's treachery was, in this line of thought, the only true shock. And that still leaves more than one possibility: one of them could be that the faith of the Imperium is what will propel the birth of a new Chaos "god"--the so-called Star Child (but forget the sensei, ugh). Unlike Christianity, where God becomes man, this would be a case of man becoming God.



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1hadhq wrote:Still waiting for a source of the part "void" in the name of the C'tan.

Don't have it. That's just the usual internet speculation.