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Which way to go? Math-hammer says that each Banshee kills 0.05 Necron on the way in (3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, but a 3+ to save and a 4+ WBB), and 0.5 Necron in CC on the charge (3 attacks, 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound, no save allowed, no WBB). So 0.55 total, per Banshee.

A Fire Dragon is almost the exact inverse - a Fire Dragon should kill 0.55 on the way in (3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no save allowed, no WBB), and 0.05 in CC (2 attacks, 4+ to hit, 3+ to save and 4+ WBB). So 0.60, per Dragon.

Other factors in favor of Dragons:
Dragons are more likely to get their attack off as they jump from their Wave Serpent, since Serpents are not Assault vehicles. This is pretty huge, but without leaping into cc, the surviving Dragons will get chewed up by rapid-firing gauss.

Other factors in favor of Banshees:
Banshees are much more likely to continue to perform well in subsequent rounds of CC thanks to their power weapons. Thanks to this and their high Initiative, an overrun is a good possibility. The Fire Dragons could get bogged down in CC, where their wonderful Fusion Guns would languish.

So it seems like Dragons are easier to use because you don't have to spend a turn outside of the Serpent before being useful. Banshees are better, but harder to use. Am I missing something?

I only face Eldar as opponents but i have to say that fortuned Banshees work a number on anything T4.

Banshees are way better. Particularly if you have a Doomseer nearby.

Alternatively, you could just line up the Banshee serpent where you need it to be, then don't pop out them out until next turn. As long as you don't move the vehicle at all they can still assault out of it. Dragons are also very good, because they can deny WBB to just about anything.

Why not both? I thought it was standard to have Fire Dragons and most people choose between Scorpions and Banshees?

Edit: Sorry, I misread the post. Stupid me.

Fire Dragons are best against most lists; besides, when it comes to melee, the Seer Council is the best option Eldar get.

Yes, PWs disregard WBB, and I took that into account. I know Dragons are generally preferred due to the anti-tank - and I will get some - but I'm starting from scratch here and I need to get up to speed against Necrons fast.

Banshees. All you need is to win the close combat, preferably by as much as possible, and if they break they are removed. I don't think WBB saves you from this, but it requires a Spyder or other Warriors in 6" anyway.

Dragons can't really hurt a Monolith, but they DO shoot Destroyers to death pretty well and Destroyers are the primary killing force in most Necron armies.

I think that neither unit is very good versus necrons.

If you park your serpent nearby and wait to disembark and assault on the following turn, you are risking having your serpent blown up and then the contents shot up.

If fire dragons can reliably kill .55 necron per dragon then a squad of 5 is killing 2 or 3 out of a unit of 10-20. The dragons will be ate up either in assault or the folloiwing turn of fire.

Banshees will wreck shop in the assault but it's getting them there that could be a problem.

Jetseers are probably the best unit for taking out necrons as they have the movement to fight where they want and can absorb alot of punishment if need be. Couple them up with some prisms and some scoring DAs in serpents and you should be able to give necrons a headache.

D'Ork wrote:Which way to go? Math-hammer says that each Banshee kills 0.05 Necron on the way in (3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, but a 3+ to save and a 4+ WBB), and 0.5 Necron in CC on the charge (3 attacks, 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound, no save allowed, no WBB). So 0.55 total, per Banshee.

A Fire Dragon is almost the exact inverse - a Fire Dragon should kill 0.55 on the way in (3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no save allowed, no WBB), and 0.05 in CC (2 attacks, 4+ to hit, 3+ to save and 4+ WBB). So 0.60, per Dragon.

Other factors in favor of Dragons:
Dragons are more likely to get their attack off as they jump from their Wave Serpent, since Serpents are not Assault vehicles. This is pretty huge, but without leaping into cc, the surviving Dragons will get chewed up by rapid-firing gauss.

Other factors in favor of Banshees:
Banshees are much more likely to continue to perform well in subsequent rounds of CC thanks to their power weapons. Thanks to this and their high Initiative, an overrun is a good possibility. The Fire Dragons could get bogged down in CC, where their wonderful Fusion Guns would languish.

So it seems like Dragons are easier to use because you don't have to spend a turn outside of the Serpent before being useful. Banshees are better, but harder to use. Am I missing something?

well, you do realize that the crons don't get any saves vs either of these units.

Power weapons(banshees) ignore WBB, Fire Pikes ignore WBB due to being double the crons toughness. and while this is negated by Rez orbs their armor save is still bypassed.

either unit is good against crons.


Banshees are better IMO.

High chance of winning combat and completing a SA due to high inititive.

Fire Dragons will kill crons with shooting, but crons don't fail moral that often.

Grey templar, in both instances the units involved had a round of shooting then assault.

The banshee #s at beginning are their shuriken pistols, against which crons most assuredly get their 3+//4+

Banshees to kill Warriors, and Fire Dragons to kill Destroyers.

Yeah, sorry if it wasn't clear but the numbers above assume that both the Dragons and the Banshees get in a round of shooting first, with the Necrons getting their armor save and WBB against Banshee shooting and Dragon CC.

Sounds like Banshees are on the shopping list first, then Dragons.

On a related subject - Seer Council is the Farseer + 'locks, right? I keep hearing how dangerous they are in CC, but I'm not seeing it. 25 points for a model with 2 CC attacks? 2+ to wound is nice but not really enough against Necrons, with a 3+ save and WBB. the Warlock powers all seem meh. What am I missing?

eNvY wrote:Alternatively, you could just line up the Banshee serpent where you need it to be, then don't pop out them out until next turn. As long as you don't move the vehicle at all they can still assault out of it. Dragons are also very good, because they can deny WBB to just about anything.

In which case the enemy can back of out of assault range or simeply block the single ramp on the serpent...Dont tailor your list against a single opponent it is a bad idea in the long run. And for a "take all commers list" the Fire dragons are the only elite choice an Eldar player should ever take.


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D'Ork wrote:

On a related subject - Seer Council is the Farseer + 'locks, right? I keep hearing how dangerous they are in CC, but I'm not seeing it. 25 points for a model with 2 CC attacks? 2+ to wound is nice but not really enough against Necrons, with a 3+ save and WBB. the Warlock powers all seem meh. What am I missing?

The foot council is not a very good choice. Its expensive and the survivability is nothing to be too proud of. Things change when you put them on Jetbikes tho. Granted, 30ish attacks that strikes at int 5 and hits at 3+ and wounds on 2+ will cause quite alot of wounds. Problem is to get them into the the assault (just like with the Banshees).

tedurur wrote:
The foot council is not a very good choice. Its expensive and the survivability is nothing to be too proud of. Things change when you put them on Jetbikes tho. Granted, 30ish attacks that strikes at int 5 and hits at 3+ and wounds on 2+ will cause quite alot of wounds. Problem is to get them into the the assault (just like with the Banshees).

I would probably put them in a Serpent. I'm just trying to identify the thing that makes Seer Councils the "hammer" of the Eldar. For 25 points you're getting a T3, 1A, 4+ save model with WS4. The 2+ to wound is nice, but that's really all they have. Against T4 with a 3+ save, a PW is better than a Witchblade. (I won't go into the math, but a charging 'lock kills 0.42 T4 3+ sv targets - a PW kills 0.5 - and this doesn't include WBB, which cuts the witchblade's kills in half again). So why would you pay 9 points more than a Banshee for that? Is it the invuln save? The fact that it's HQ instead of elite? The Warlock powers certainly don't seem very inspiring.

I guess you could put them on bikes, and that gives them mobility and T4, but only by nearly doubling their cost! Maybe it's because I'm coming from the perspective of an Ork player, where 25 points gets me a T4, 2W nob with 5 Str5 attacks on the charge and a 5+ invuln (cybork) save.

Banshees, since CC is where it is at against necrons, you need to run them down in close combat, since if they fail their leadership, you're going to wipe them off the table.

Its not nearly double their costs since you need to consider the cost of a Serpent if you take them on foot.
The Banshees might be somewhat better against Necrons but tailoring your list against a specific opponent will do you no good...
What makes a foot council "good" is the rerollable inv save. You must have them fortuned or they will be majorly overcosted.

If you wanna compare the Nob vs a fortuned Warlock you will actually find that they do pretty much equal damage per pt vs each other.




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All this said tho, foot council is NOT a good way to spend your points as an Eldar player. (Neither is Banshees)

I disagree, I run a serpent council, and it is almost never a waste of points, for Yriel alone.

Don't Banshees have S3? If so, they can be easily dealt with if the Necron player has Nightbringer, who can just keep them from ever being in combat anywhere nearby. It's a conditional problem, but it's a very large one if your opponent has (or will get) that one model.


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Also, Banshees likely won't get to stay in combat. There are multiple ways for your opponent to get his squad out of CC during his movement phase,

C'tan are however a risky proposition as they can be insta popped be several things in the Eldar codex, Wraith and D cannons and, less likely but still possable, Witchblades.

Wraithcannons don't I'd a C'Tan.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:I disagree, I run a serpent council, and it is almost never a waste of points, for Yriel alone.

Not getting into that discussion again...


Witchblades however will curbstomp the Nightbringer. The decviver on the otherhand is a much better Ctan.

Monster Rain wrote:Wraithcannons don't I'd a C'Tan.

on a roll of 6 to wound they do.

No, no they actually don't. They do a wound on a roll of a 6, just like it says in the Necron Codex in the C'Tan section.


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Also, in the interest of the Nightbringer and Seer Councils, read the Etheric Tempest ability!

ooooo, i forgot about that special rule the C'tan have.

It depends on what you're fighting in the cron army. If it's Destroyers-C'Tan-Monoliths then I'd probably take Firedragons. If lots of Immortals then Banshees have a stronger case.

Assuming you're using full units in a serpent because 5 strong of either is a huge waste against crons.

-Fire Dragons are easily the best choice vs destroyer units that come in a max of 5. You have a solid chance of dropping a full unit of 5 within about 24" of your unit with your serpent's move-deploy-FD shoot. And it's harder to gain the cover save for them from terrain unlike Immortals/Warriors.
-Banshees won't easily catch them, serpent moves up, Destroyers move away, and so on. It takes too long.

Firedragons aren't likely to oneshot a lith or take more than 2 wounds off a C'tan, but they can hurt those targets where Banshee's can't.

Banshee's are much better at prising Warrior's or Immortals out of cover like a ruin if they aren't teleported away first and that's the only place they have it over the Firedragons.

In truth though Banshees though cheapest are probably the worst of the 4 Eldar CC squad choices against Necrons . Scorpions 3+ probably makes them the best and stops them evaporating against Necron AP4, Witchblades give you a monolith killing option and are put to use against T5, Harlies have more attacks that are better against T5 and more relevant toys.

And yeah all of Banshees, Warlocks, Harlies and Scorpions are useless against the C'tan if they don't want to fight you because of Etheric Tempest and Misdirect.

Scorpions can stay through the Tempest because they're S4. Of course, the Nightbringer will just beat them like they're Circus Monkeys...

Tempasts says Unmodified Str. Scorpions are Str3 base.

Ah right, I thought the rule from memory was unmodified Str4, but I don't have my codex to check.

nevermind beaten to it