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So, i'll be having few fights against Dark Eldar again. Far as i know, i'll be probably facing tons of dark lances. Any one have ideas what kind of tactics and weapons should i include in my army?
So far what i've thought of was ..
a) to equip all my rhinos with Hunter-Killer missiles to take down a raider or two.
b) incase i don't get the first turn, start from reserve so i can atleast get some shots on DE before getting shot at

Anyone have better ideas i could use?

Do not take hunter-killers against raiders, although I would be able to mould an army to deal with DE.

Reserving is an idea, depending on your list, and the opponent's list.

As A DE player Ill tell ya..... (betraying my own here)

Take LONG RANGE stuff! It doesnt really matter what (DE armor..... isnt. Aside from Asraubel highest armor is 11.) I say Long Range because any DE player worth their salt is gonna have Night Shields (adds 6" to ACTUAL measured range). Forget about Melta here.... With Nightshields you'll never get the bonus roll.

For FootSloggin lances, just about anything will do... Warriors have a crappy save.... Hell, Theyre glorified Guardsmen...

Just my thoughts

Spam Lascannons, Autocannons, and Missile Launchers. You should be able to drop the Raiders before they get to you. Razorbacks are great for this: cheap, mobile, and expendable. Predators with lascannon sponsons, Rifleman dreads with TL Autocannons, all viable ways to knock down the lances. HKM are not a bad idea; gives you a couple extra missile shots with unlimited range.

Skarboy wrote:Spam Lascannons, Autocannons, and Missile Launchers. You should be able to drop the Raiders before they get to you. Razorbacks are great for this: cheap, mobile, and expendable. Predators with lascannon sponsons, Rifleman dreads with TL Autocannons, all viable ways to knock down the lances. HKM are not a bad idea; gives you a couple extra missile shots with unlimited range.

I like this comment the best thus far.

If I had to list what I don't like seeing from Vanilla Marines it would basically be this;

Razorback Spam (hate it, it's the SM's attempt to out DE the DE)
Autocannon Preds with las sponsons (aka point and kill unit versus any DE vehicle)
Other long range, mid strength, multiple shot weapons.

What I like to see are things like Land Raiders, drop pods, lots of melta, lots of flamers, and (holiest of holies) Space Marines who are not inside vehicles.
===================================

Here's what I would advise as a basic strategy.

I don't care how your opponent deploys. Either go reserve (though maybe avoid this if he's assault minded) or deploy your units together. You are much slower then him.
Your most primary goal is to take away the vehicles. Primary threats are generally the Ravagers (the "heavy" skimmers) and any Raider that is carrying Wyches and/or a DE Lord.
Target priority is vital vs. DE as their basic plan is to overwhelm you via target oversaturation. Understand where the biggest threats are and kill them first.
Heavy Bolters, missiles, and lascannons can all punch nice holes in his vehicles.
Use cover saves as much as possible - he's relying on single shot anti-tank weaponry, that means if you have cover you have a 50/50 to ignore his hit (if he manages to hit and glance/penetrate) that is *huge*.

Do not think you can beat up DE in h2h with vanilla marines - you can't. "Oh, but Thor, I took me some kewl special characters and awesometacular assault elements and I'mma gonna stomp them DE flat."
No, you will not. Space Wolves can't and they're better in h2h then Vanilla ever will be. Shoot them with your bolters. Everything in the DE army basically can be killed by bolters, and you get to strike before him and avoid the close combat insanity that way. The only things you should ever assault as SM vs. DE would be basic Warriors if you have nothing better to do and I guess Grotesques if he's dumb enough to take them.

Assault/short range DE will generally come to you, and in that case you might as well let them (you can't stop them) focus fire on the assault oriented Raiders first and the Ravagers second.
If he's playing gunline DE then you better hope you brought enough long range fire support to equal/exceed his own as you'll be too slow to catch him. Focus fire on Ravagers first and Raiders with Lances inside them second. Ignore the assault stuff unless he gets desperate enough to hurl it towards you - it's a distraction but one you'll need to decide for yourself if it's worth targeting.

Also, as a general rule, try to get him to agree to an 1850+ point match, your army will be much better able to deal with him at those point levels. At 1500 I don't think Vanilla SM could beat a competent DE commander outside of odd luck.

I could offer more specific thoughts if I saw either your list or his. But this is probably a good general concept to work with.

Based on everyone's advice and the models i have, this is what i came up with for 1500pts game.

HQ
Librarian with Terminator armour and Stormshield

Elites
Dreadnought with Twinlinked Las Cannon and Missile launcher

Troops
10 man Tactical Squad with flamer and missile launcher. Sergeant has Chainsword and pistol. Transport: Rhino with H-K Missile
10 man Tactical Squad with flamer and missile launcher. Sergeant has Chainsword and pistol. Transport: Rhino with H-K Missile
10 man Tactical Squad with Plasma gun and Las Cannon. Sergeant has Powerfist and pistol. Transport: Razorback with Twinlinked Heavybolter and H-K Missile

Heavy Support
Predator with Twinlinked Las Cannon and Sponson lasers
Predator with Autocannon, sponson heavy bolters and storm bolter
5 man Devastator with 2 plasmacannons and 2 heavy bolters. Transport: Razorback with twinlinked Las Cannon

Basic idea is to have all tacticals in combat squads and placing the halves with heavy weapon in cover while close range squads approach the possible "Sniper Squads" in transports. Rest will just sit back and shoot. Libby is there just because i need one HQ and with shield, he should be able to soak up some lance bombardment.

For a larger game, maybe Landspeeders and Terminators to Deep strike?
So, thoughts? Would this do?

Yeah best way to drop Raiders is to bring long range. Night Fields really mess up a lot of stuff.
Don't bother with hunter-killer missiles as they are expensive for 1 shot and you are bringing an AV 11 vehicle to deal with dark lances. <.<
Also deep-striking units with plasma guns or terminators with missile launchers would probably be good as DE requires a lot of tactical placement which is kinda hard when you're right behind them.
Plasma cannons...meh. They won't do much good against Raiders due to the fact that they scatter. Missile launchers would probably be better and cheaper.
Greetsz,
Mr. Self Destruct

Thor665 wrote:

Skarboy wrote:Spam Lascannons, Autocannons, and Missile Launchers. You should be able to drop the Raiders before they get to you. Razorbacks are great for this: cheap, mobile, and expendable. Predators with lascannon sponsons, Rifleman dreads with TL Autocannons, all viable ways to knock down the lances. HKM are not a bad idea; gives you a couple extra missile shots with unlimited range.

I like this comment the best thus far.

If I had to list what I don't like seeing from Vanilla Marines it would basically be this;

Razorback Spam (hate it, it's the SM's attempt to out DE the DE)
Autocannon Preds with las sponsons (aka point and kill unit versus any DE vehicle)
Other long range, mid strength, multiple shot weapons.

What I like to see are things like Land Raiders, drop pods, lots of melta, lots of flamers, and (holiest of holies) Space Marines who are not inside vehicles.
===================================

Here's what I would advise as a basic strategy.

I don't care how your opponent deploys. Either go reserve (though maybe avoid this if he's assault minded) or deploy your units together. You are much slower then him.
Your most primary goal is to take away the vehicles. Primary threats are generally the Ravagers (the "heavy" skimmers) and any Raider that is carrying Wyches and/or a DE Lord.
Target priority is vital vs. DE as their basic plan is to overwhelm you via target oversaturation. Understand where the biggest threats are and kill them first.
Heavy Bolters, missiles, and lascannons can all punch nice holes in his vehicles.
Use cover saves as much as possible - he's relying on single shot anti-tank weaponry, that means if you have cover you have a 50/50 to ignore his hit (if he manages to hit and glance/penetrate) that is *huge*.

Do not think you can beat up DE in h2h with vanilla marines - you can't. "Oh, but Thor, I took me some kewl special characters and awesometacular assault elements and I'mma gonna stomp them DE flat."
No, you will not. Space Wolves can't and they're better in h2h then Vanilla ever will be. Shoot them with your bolters. Everything in the DE army basically can be killed by bolters, and you get to strike before him and avoid the close combat insanity that way. The only things you should ever assault as SM vs. DE would be basic Warriors if you have nothing better to do and I guess Grotesques if he's dumb enough to take them.

Assault/short range DE will generally come to you, and in that case you might as well let them (you can't stop them) focus fire on the assault oriented Raiders first and the Ravagers second.
If he's playing gunline DE then you better hope you brought enough long range fire support to equal/exceed his own as you'll be too slow to catch him. Focus fire on Ravagers first and Raiders with Lances inside them second. Ignore the assault stuff unless he gets desperate enough to hurl it towards you - it's a distraction but one you'll need to decide for yourself if it's worth targeting.

Also, as a general rule, try to get him to agree to an 1850+ point match, your army will be much better able to deal with him at those point levels. At 1500 I don't think Vanilla SM could beat a competent DE commander outside of odd luck.

I could offer more specific thoughts if I saw either your list or his. But this is probably a good general concept to work with.

Thor's comments are spot on and I second everything he says. I would go with some autocannon dreads behind rhinos for cover while you can kill raiders with mass glancing hits. You want to fish for exploding results against raiders and with volume of fire, you will get a few shots through if they turbozoom. Explosion results are the death of warriors, wyches, and anything else except for incubi. Thunderfire cannons work well if your willing to risk it being blown away by lances. That 50/50 chance of blowing up the cannon especially with multiple lances can hurt bad. Target priority goes to first ravagers, then raiders, then sniper squads (DE on foot). Kill the mobility of a DE army means the doom of a DE army.

Thunder555 wrote:Based on everyone's advice and the models i have, this is what i came up with for 1500pts game.

1500? Whew, good luck with that. If you have any idea what sort of list he runs let us know and you can probably get some more feedback. I'll offer what thoughts I can on what you're doing.

HQ
Librarian with Terminator armour and Stormshield

What powers? What is his purpose? He feels very tacked onto the force and doesn't seem to be there to advance any particular strategy.

Elites
Dreadnought with Twinlinked Las Cannon and Missile launcher

Good. If you have the model I would most assuredly drop the triple lascannon Predator for another one of these. It would save you points and be just as effective.

Troops
10 man Tactical Squad with flamer and missile launcher. Sergeant has Chainsword and pistol. Transport: Rhino with H-K Missile
10 man Tactical Squad with flamer and missile launcher. Sergeant has Chainsword and pistol. Transport: Rhino with H-K Missile
10 man Tactical Squad with Plasma gun and Las Cannon. Sergeant has Powerfist and pistol. Transport: Razorback with Twinlinked Heavybolter and H-K Missile

The HKs are 'meh' in my opinion. I'd advocate Razorbacks over Rhinos any day of the week versus DE.

Heavy Support
Predator with Twinlinked Las Cannon and Sponson lasers

Probably way more bang for your buck then you'll need versus DE. That said it will draw a lot of early fire from your opponent if he's smart.

Predator with Autocannon, sponson heavy bolters and storm bolter

This can be pretty useful to you. Recongnize that your goal is killing vehicles and that this Pred is well built to kill light vehicles. Don't be fooled into using it to kill troops unless you have to/have no other targets.

5 man Devastator with 2 plasmacannons and 2 heavy bolters. Transport: Razorback with twinlinked Las Cannon

Meh. Plasma Cannons are for killing troops, not light vehicles. I'd take missle launchers before I ever paid out for Plasma. Lascannons would be an acceptable option as well. Probably even heavy bolters would be better in my opinion though that one is more debatable. The Razorback is pure gold, you would want more of these if you have them.

Basic idea is to have all tacticals in combat squads and placing the halves with heavy weapon in cover while close range squads approach the possible "Sniper Squads" in transports. Rest will just sit back and shoot. Libby is there just because i need one HQ and with shield, he should be able to soak up some lance bombardment.

Your Rhinos are functionally useless to you - they should be used mostly as mobile cover for your more valuable units (the Dread, the Razorbacks, et al) you can try to close with the DE and depedning on their list that may or may not be a good idea. At the very least being aggressive with the Rhinos can possibly serve as a distraction - my worry with the combat squads is it will be relatively easy for him to Dissie your heavy weapon squads to death with his Ravagers while his Lances tear into your mech forces. Again, I can't be more concise without seeing his list - but I would either keep your squads inside the Rhinos in order to use them as bunkers, or I would take the entire squad out for more possible ablative wounds from incoming Dissie fire and use the Rhinos as mobile walls that are threatening because of the HKs.

I still don't get what you're doing with the Librarian - is he just going to be footslogging solo? I guess my best advice in that case is to give him Gate of Infinity and melta bombs. Portal him in near a couple vehicles and have him there to threaten a charge on the next turn - the DE player will probably at least waste some time shooting him and/or disembark a group of Wyches/Incubi to kill the Librarian. This is good because disembarked Wyches/Incubi are easier to kill and in any case if he wastes time shooting the Librarian that's firepower not coming at your other units.

If he ignores you hopefully the Librarian can manage to pop a Raider with the melta bombs.

Personally I think there's probably a better use for an HQ slot then that (I don't play as Marines that often so I'm uncertain what to suggest).

For a larger game, maybe Landspeeders and Terminators to Deep strike?

Landspeeders can be good - Termies are not really that good versus DE (this does start to question whether you're tailoring the list versus DE or trying to play an all comers list of course).

For the hq choices.
If you are trying to stay away from the dark eldar. A master of the forge might be a better bet. The fortify ruins will help your devastators survive longer, and if you give him the conversion beamer he can add to the anti-tank capabilities of the unit.

Or a unit of scouts with sniper rifles, camo cloaks, and a missile launcher, makes a great baby sitter unit for the master of the forge. And if you used them you could drop one of your tac squads to free up some more points.

If you can swap weapons on your predators. It would probably be better to have them both as auto-cannon, sponson heavy bolters.

If you have another dread it would work out good as well.

Agree with Thor on your dev squad, all missiles, or heavy bolters, or bump it up to 10 and split it into two squads.

Landspeeder typhoons are money against dark eldar as well.

Devastator load out isnt perfect because the lack of right kind of models. I would use all heavy bolter or all missile squad if i had any to spare. have to make due with what i got at the moment.

As for vehicles, besides the ones in the list, i have 1 landraider, drop pod, AOBR dread and 3 landspeeders. So not too much to choose from. For the dread i do have spare Lascannon, but even then it would be Las/CCW dread, maybe not so useful.

gregor_xenos wrote:As A DE player Ill tell ya....any DE player worth their salt is gonna have Night Shields

Those two pieces of the same sentence are completely contradictory. Lollerskates. I must not be worth my salt....I've accidentally stumbled into some GT wins and major RTT wins this year....got my precious golden ticket to the GW invitational with my Dark Eldar...and I think Nightshields are trash because they don't add anything to an army's killing potential.

C'mon; don't make foolish blanket statements!

Thunder555 wrote:Devastator load out isnt perfect because the lack of right kind of models. I would use all heavy bolter or all missile squad if i had any to spare. have to make due with what i got at the moment.

As for vehicles, besides the ones in the list, i have 1 landraider, drop pod, AOBR dread and 3 landspeeders. So not too much to choose from. For the dread i do have spare Lascannon, but even then it would be Las/CCW dread, maybe not so useful.

What armaments do you have for the land speeders? If you can put three typhoons on the table, coupled with the long range dread, and the predators, that should put a little bit of fear into the de player.

Warmaster wrote:
What armaments do you have for the land speeders? If you can put three typhoons on the table, coupled with the long range dread, and the predators, that should put a little bit of fear into the de player.

I have 2 landspeeder Tornadoes with heavybolters and assault cannons and 1 typhoon with heavybolter

I've always preferred assault cannons over meltas just cause their looks

I would put all three of your speeders in. The nice thing about playing against dark eldar is that their basic troop weapon is str3. Which means he has to dedicate anti-tank fire to taking them out. Really the only str4 weapons they have are the splinter cannons.

Okies.. some changes then. Going for 1500pts again since i'm still not sure what size the game will be. I'll be suggesting that we should play over 2000pts game. But that will be decided this weekend, few hours before the game.

HQ
Chaplain with Terminator armour and Stormbolter

Elites
Dreadnought with Twinlinked Las Cannon and Missile launcher

Troops
10 man Tactical Squad with flamer and missile launcher. Sergeant has Chainsword and pistol. Transport: Razorback with Twinlinked Heavybolter
10 man Tactical Squad with flamer and missile launcher. Sergeant has Chainsword and pistol. Transport: Razorback with Twinlinked Lascannon
10 man Tactical Squad with Plasma gun and Las Cannon. Sergeant has Powersword and pistol. Transport: Rhino

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Tornado with Assault cannon and Heavy bolter
Land Speeder Typhoon with Missile launcher and Heavy bolter
Land Speeder Tornado with Assault cannon and Heavy bolter

Heavy Support
Predator with Twinlinked Las Cannon and Sponson lasers
Predator with Autocannon, sponson heavy bolters and storm bolter

So i freed the points from HK missiles and one rhino to get an attack bike and dev squad got swapped for 2 landspeeders. Tactical squad commandeered the razorback that devastators had.
About the enemy, i think he has 2 ravagers and handful of raiders.. maybe 4 or 5. And lots of warriors.

This list looks better?

*edit* Did some tweaking to get that 3rd Landspeeder in the list. Main change was getting rid of Librarian and taking a cheaper HQ choise instead.

Dashofpepper wrote:

gregor_xenos wrote:As A DE player Ill tell ya....any DE player worth their salt is gonna have Night Shields

Those two pieces of the same sentence are completely contradictory. Lollerskates. I must not be worth my salt....I've accidentally stumbled into some GT wins and major RTT wins this year....got my precious golden ticket to the GW invitational with my Dark Eldar...and I think Nightshields are trash because they don't add anything to an army's killing potential.

C'mon; don't make foolish blanket statements!

Heh, Just MY opinion.... and the opinion of everyone Ive played (win or loose, they all think the NS is "broken")

and By the way: Opinions are like buttholes... Everyone's got one, and they ALL stink.... So If you dont like mine, stop sniffin it!

Other than this post, I have found all of your topics quite informative and entertaining.

I think it looks pretty good for what you have available.

What powers are you thinking for the librarian. Also where is the librarian going to go? You are almost better off just leaving him in power armor so he can ride around in a rhino or razorback with a 5 man squad. Maybe vortex and null zone for powers.

The attack bike will probably go dow pretty quickly. Since it's 4(5) he can insta kill it with a lance shot. If you got rid of the terminator armor and the stormshield that would probably be enough points to upgrade the attack bike to our other tornado.

I also might swap the rhino and razorback around on you tac squads. Give the rhino to the las/plas squad. That way if you feel like it you can not combat squad them, leave them in the rhino, and shoot the plasma and las out the hatch.

Warmaster wrote:I think it looks pretty good for what you have available.

What powers are you thinking for the librarian. Also where is the librarian going to go? You are almost better off just leaving him in power armor so he can ride around in a rhino or razorback with a 5 man squad. Maybe vortex and null zone for powers.

The attack bike will probably go dow pretty quickly. Since it's 4(5) he can insta kill it with a lance shot. If you got rid of the terminator armor and the stormshield that would probably be enough points to upgrade the attack bike to our other tornado.

I also might swap the rhino and razorback around on you tac squads. Give the rhino to the las/plas squad. That way if you feel like it you can not combat squad them, leave them in the rhino, and shoot the plasma and las out the hatch.

Good idea, edited the list a little bit. Now it should be slightly more effective.

I think a single thunder fire cannon can help, or at least pull it's weight in points against DE.

3+ cover to multiple units will really help against massed lances and plasma cannons.

4 shots at STR6 is better than 2 shots at STR 8 against AV10 open topped vehicles.

If your willing to play as black templars, Blessed Hull land raiders are nearly invincible vs Dark Eldar. Only haywire grenades can pen you

razorlead wrote:If your willing to play as black templars, Blessed Hull land raiders are nearly invincible vs Dark Eldar. Only haywire grenades can pen you

Nah, changing codex just for advantage is not how i want to play.

I would say drop the terminator armour on the chaplain, keep him standard, then he can ride round in a Razorback, and be there if something really needs charging. But honestly you don't want to be in combat with DE unless they're just warriors.

And to put in my 2p, I don't use Nightshields either, as I don't find that 6" makes much difference after the first turn . . . when you could just be behind cover or something. And then you're so close to them that the 6" aren't going to make much difference at all. But ohwell just my thoughts.

Oshova

Ok, the game is over now and.. Space Marines won! Thanks everyone for their advices.

Excellent to hear - now tell your friend to come on here so I can explain to him how to murder you with DE