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Ok, bear with me on this guys. I've never played before, and after reading through most of the 5th edition core rules and borrowing a friends Space Marines Codex, I have made a starting 500-point army. I know it's small, but I want something manageable. I plan to expand as time goes on. That in mind, here goes:

HQ: 103 points
Librarian
Upgrade Bolter to Storm Bolter

Troops:

Squad 1: 200 points
1x Space Marine Sergeant
Upgrade Bolter to Power Sword
Add Meltabombs
9x Space Marines
Upgrade 1 to Flamer
Upgrade 1 to Lascannon

Squad 2: 195 points
1x Scout Sergeant
Upgrade Bolter to Power Weapon
9x Scout Marines
Camo cloaks for all of them
9x Sniper Rifle
1x Missile Launcher

I thought I would have the range and stealth of the snipers and the other squad can maybe run as two combat squads, one with anti-armor and the other with a Flamer. Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions?

Also, does a Tactical Squad not come with a close combat weapon (barring Bolt Pistol)? No Chainswords or anything?

Thanks everyone!

drop the power sword on the scout squad.

My personal advice:

Librarian:
Drop the storm bolter on the librarian and upgrade to Epistolary.
You haven't specified what psychic powers you're taking...
Recommendations (at 500 points you're not going to get many armour opponents)
Null Zone (cancel out inv saves)
Smite (gives him a good shooting attack)

150

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol
Chainsword (no point going for power weapon!)
Flamer
Multi-Melta (pops any armour you come up against better than lascannons, especially at 12", and is twin-linked so you can reroll failed roll to hit)

170

Scouts.....Drop them or take a smaller squad. EITHER:

Scout Squad (5 man)
Sergeant: SNIPER RIFLE
x 4 Sniper Rifles
x 5 Camo Cloaks

90

Tactical Squad (5 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma (gives you a one-shot extra punch)
Chainsword

90

OR

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Lightning Claw (reroll failed rolls to wound)
Combi-Plasma
Flamer
Missile Launcher (fire krak or frag. should take out anything opponent can throw at you at 500 points)

180

TOTALS:

With scout squad and 5 man tac squad : 500!

With 10 man tac squad: 500!

stormywaters wrote: Librarian Storm Bolter

You will want to use the Avenger or other 'shooty' psi-power, so having a SB is pointless.

stormywaters wrote:1x Space Marine Sergeant
Upgrade Bolter to Power Sword
Add Meltabombs
9x Space Marines
Upgrade 1 to Flamer
Upgrade 1 to Lascannon

Two things: at 500 points, there won't be anything more than an enemy transport to pop, so, the LasCan and meltabombs aren't needed. I'd spend those points on a PFist for sarge instead. Go with the free ML or MM for the heavy wep. LasCans are largely unused in 5e.

stormywaters wrote:
1x Scout Sergeant
Upgrade Bolter to Power Weapon
9x Scout Marines
Camo cloaks for all of them
9x Sniper Rifle
1x Missile Launcher

If a shooty scout sgt gets in h2h, then you've blown your game plan. I'm not sure where you'd spend those points ...

stormywaters wrote:I thought I would have the range and stealth of the snipers and the other squad can maybe run as two combat squads, one with anti-armor and the other with a Flamer. Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions?

Combat Squads nearly are always a bad idea. Have 'em stay together.

stormywaters wrote:Also, does a Tactical Squad not come with a close combat weapon (barring Bolt Pistol)? No Chainswords or anything?

You mean the models in the box? Or the wargear listing in the Codex?

Box: I dunno
Listing: No. SM have bolters and Bolt Pistols.

Other SMs manage to have Bolters, BP & CS, like Space Wolves. Just one of those Codex: SM oddities that differentiates the SM armies.

OK back again.

And seeing as I can't offer any more advice than what i've done already i'll say:

Storm Bolters aren't right unless you got Terminator Armour.

Combat Squadding only works if you've got a transport for the squad. Heavy weapon half stays put, close combat part stays in RAZORBACK.

Well thanks for all the great advice guys! I'm a little bummed that my troops don't get chainswords though... should I switch to the jump-pack guys?

What kind of strategy should I look at with the above lists?

Also, is it ok for me to paint my army to look like Black Templars, even though they are vanilla marines?

Thanks again!!

storm bolters are good no matter what, its assult 2 so you can charge after firing regardless of what amour, drop the power wepon on the scout sq

I'd Sugest for phykik powers on the librerian
smite is always incredibly helpful to me,

gate of infinity and the avenger are always a good combo,
but my liberian has termie amour and a storm shield, your librerian will probably be on a suicide run if he uses that combo soits a good idea to avoid it

Good luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corennus wrote:
Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Lightning Claw (reroll failed rolls to wound)-You need a pair, and you can't give your average joe tactical sgt lightning claws

Ok, how about this list:

HQ: 150 points
Librarian, upgraded to Epistolary
Smite / Null Zone

Assault Squad (Fast Attack): 245 points
1 Assault Marine Sergeant
9 Assault Marines
2x Flamers
Melta bombs (because I had extra points)
Lightning Claws

Scout Squad: 105
1x Scout Sergeant
4x Scout Marines
4x Sniper Rifles
1x Combi-Plasma
5x Camo Cloaks
Melta bombs (because I had extra points)

Points total: 500

I don't have lots for armor, but I have some, and I will probably play a lot against my friends Orks to start out, and he won't likely be fielding any armor.

I have a fast-attack squad that is good in melee, as well as a couple Flamers to help with large mobs. I have snipers for more surgical strikes, and they have a combi-plasma in case I run into some armor.

Thoughts? Better than the first list?

Madman49 wrote:storm bolters are good no matter what, its assult 2 so you can charge after firing regardless of what amour

Um, no, they're not *good no matter what*.

Two reasons:
1. BoltPistol means *one* shot before the charge. StormBolter means two shots. The enemy gets an Armor Save versus both.

Staying with a BoltPistol means an extra attack in h2h, which is good as the libby is packing that nice Force Wep. No Armor Save versus that.
2. Psy powers will pack more wallop than the SB.

*That's* why ICs, especially, librarians shouldn't have StormBs.

stormywaters wrote:
1 Assault Marine Sergeant
9 Assault Marines
2x Flamers
Melta bombs (because I had extra points)
Lightning Claws

You're list is now illegal. Every army must have 2 troop units and an HQ. Assault SM are Fast Attack.

As for your want for ChainSword/BP *and* Bolters: Why not use Blood Angels or Space Wolves? ChaosSM?

Paint job: They can be pink, with Rainbow Bright or Carebears for the mascot. Some guy is painting up Space Beavers ... seriously, I've seen the pictures. One guy's wife put a Hello Kitty on a rhino ... yes, an all pink army.

The color scheme doesn't matter, as long as you tell your opponent which Codex you're using.

Grr, I knew I missed something. Ok, ok. How about this then:

HQ: 150 points
Librarian, upgraded to Epistolary
Smite / Null Zone

Troop 1: 170 points
1x Space Marine Sergeant
9x Space Marines
Bolter --> Chainsword
+ Flamer
+ Missile Launcher

Troop 2: 180 points
1x Space Marine Sergeant
9x Space Marines
Bolter --> Combi-Plasma
+ Flamer
+ Missile Launcher

I have the Combi-Plasma for a one-shot punch, Flamers for mobs and Missile Launcers for... launching missiles?

Anyway, I don't care about having Bolters AND BP/CS, it just seems to me that if I have a Bolter and a Bolt Pistol, I only have one close-combat weapon (BP), right? If I have BP/CS combo, I can shoot the pistol in the Shooting phase and get the +1 attack in the assault phase. Right? Why have two guns in the shooting phase?

Also, I would really like to play Black Templars, but I don't think they are getting a new codex any time soon, so they are kind of out of the question. Wolves and Angels are cool, but I don't know that I want to play either.

Edit: Won't play Chaos SM, because they are heretics and deserve only the cleansing fire of the Holy Flamer. They are a scourge to wiped from the Emperor's realm, like the Xenos scum and daemons.

Very few troop level units have two CC weapons.

Personally I would go with a combi-melta instead. Yeah, I know a plasma has rapid fire, but if I wanted my weapons to kill my own soldiers I would have went Orks.

stormywaters wrote:Grr, I knew I missed something.

It happens.

stormywaters wrote:Librarian, upgraded to Epistolary Smite / Null Zone

Now, I should have mentioned this earlier, but you'll encounter few Invuln Saves at 500 point games, unless you're up against Daemons. I'd downgrade from Epistolary, and go with Avenger. Let's look at it compared to Smite.

Smite will hit probably all four dice, based on the Lib's BS, but only wound 2, given its STR. <-- This is versus Marines, MEqs. This kills 2 models, as they'll have no Armor Save vs. AP2.

Avenger will hit automatically, as it's a template wep, and odds are, more models will be hit simply because of coherency. Then, it'll wound 4 outta 6, given its higher STR (again, vs. MEqs). It'll be rare to encounter termies or anything with Armor 2+ at this point level. With AP3, it'll remove pretty much anything at this point level.

What to do with the points you save on the Epistolary downgrade? Skip the ChainSword for sarge every time. PFist, Pfist, Pfist. Which would be the remaining 'fix' I'd recommend for this starter list.

stormywaters wrote:1x Space Marine Sergeant Bolter --> Chainsword
1x Space Marine Sergeant
Bolter --> Combi-Plasma

Anyway, I don't care about having Bolters AND BP/CS, it just seems to me that if I have a Bolter and a Bolt Pistol, I only have one close-combat weapon (BP), right?

Right.

stormywaters wrote: If I have BP/CS combo, I can shoot the pistol in the Shooting phase and get the +1 attack in the assault phase. Right?

Correct.

stormywaters wrote:Why have two guns in the shooting phase?

If facing superior h2h units, like hormagaunts, harlies, banshees or say Nurlge-daemons, then you'd rather bolter them with Rapid Fire.

Brothererekose has got this list advice essentially covered. So listen to him

stormywaters wrote: Also, I would really like to play Black Templars, but I don't think they are getting a new codex any time soon, so they are kind of out of the question

SAY WHAT!! Black Templars are awesome, never judge an army by the age of its codex. Any good player will tell you skill will trump codex any day.

Are Templars still ok to play? Aren't their abilities somewhat dated?

Anyway, now that I have a solid 500 point list, how does it grow from there? What do you add or change for 1000-points? I am struggling to see how one knows what choices to make when building an army? Which HQ do you take at 1000-points? Chapter Master?

Also, when do I start using Land Raiders? And which variant is better? Crusader? Redeemer? Do you buy any of the upgrades for them, or take them as-is?

Thanks a ton for the advice guys!!

My advice is: Play at 500 points for a while, get yourself used to the vanilla marines.

Upgrading to 1000 points you can either go for gunline or assault. I assume as you're a BT player you love assault, so go for some assault squads. And get yourself a chaplain to go alongside the Librarian.
If he goes with the fully tooled up assault squad they can cause serious damage.


As for Land Raiders.....are you planning on taking Terminators? If not steer clear of LR like the plague. They're overpriced and Predators or Vindicators do the same job for over half the price.
AV 14 is tempting.....but remember any army you go against will have LR busters (melta or other nasty technology).

If you're set on taking a LR it depends on the makeup of your army. Going against an infantry list where you want your LR to smash through enemy lines and deploy squads of tacticals or your HQ you can't ask for better than a Crusader or Redeemer.
But if there's tanks in your enemy's list go for lascannon LR each time


If I was doing an assault based list at 1000 points I'd go with this: NEVER TAKE LAND RAIDERS IN A GAME UNDER 1500 POINTS YOU WILL LOSE THE TANK AND IT TAKES UP TOO MANY POINTS

HQ:
Librarian
Machine Curse
Avenger
Jump Pack

125

Chaplain
Jump Pack

115

TROOPS

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword
Bolter
Flamer
Missile Launcher

170

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword
Bolter
Flamer
Missile Launcher

170

ASSAULT:

Assault Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Lightning Claws
x 8 Chainswords
Flamer

230

Assault Squad (10 man
x 10 Chainsword

190

TOTAL: 1000

Chaplain goes with Lightning Claw Assault Squad. Librarian with normal assault squad.

Two Tactical Squads with ML take up position to whittle down enemy squads with bolter and frag fire.
At 1000 points you shouldn't have anything beyond AV 13 to deal with, and ML can handle those.
Assault Squads on the charge have over 30 attacks!

Alternitlvly you can run your list as BA and take assault marines as troops. GL with what ever you decide.

Or Black Templars Sword Brethren......

Why don't take a land raider in 1,500 points or less? That is not the best advice...

Also, I question machine curse on the librarian, awful psychic power...

I would drop something to get either melta bombs on both the assault squads, or a melta gun.

Vortex of doom, or null zone would be a better option, VoD just for high AV killing.

You say never take a land raider in below 1,500, yet this army couldn't touch AV 14, on a successful pyschic test, it can GLANCE AV 14, not good.

As long as your opponents don't take high AV tanks, you should be in the clear though...

stormywaters wrote:Are Templars still ok to play? Aren't their abilities somewhat dated?

Yes, still okay to play. No, they're not too outdated, considering Dark Eldar, Necrons, Witch Hunters ... however, BT are the oldest SM codex, IIRC (less than 5 years?), and DAs are the ones in most need of re-do .... But, BTs function well enough as is. I've had them take my lunch money now and then.

You like 'em? Run 'em!

stormywaters wrote:Anyway, now that I have a solid 500 point list, how does it grow from there? What do you add or change for 1000-points? I am struggling to see how one knows what choices to make when building an army? Which HQ do you take at 1000-points? Chapter Master?

Man, if it were tau advice, it'd be easy. But SM offer lotsa options. As Corennus posted, you could go several ways.

How about the Assault on Black Reach box? Do you have rules, templates and dice? There's another tac, termies, loads for *still* a good price.

stormywaters wrote:Also, when do I start using Land Raiders? And which variant is better? Crusader? Redeemer? Do you buy any of the upgrades for them, or take them as-is?

LRs - Wait for the 1500+ point level, and when you do get one, get the LRRedeemer or LRCrusader (the box has both sponsons IIRC), both are superior to the LR.

Their purpose is to deliver termies, so Extra Armor, every time and another MultiMelta, independently fired? Hell yeah!

Land Raiders come in at 250 points (or 240 points if taking redeemer).
That's a 1/4 of the army in one unit.

Machine Curse was so Assault Squad has a hope in hell of taking down tanks. but Vortex Of Doom is a good choice.

You're not going to get many enemy units with Inv Saves in 1000 point army so Null Zone is a bit of a waste IMO

Drop the Lightning Claws for a Power Fist in the second assault squad on my list if you're really worried about no anti-armour power.

Ok thanks a ton everyone! Couple of questions:

1. Corennus said earlier in the thread that a Multi-Melta is twin-linked, but I can't find that in the book anywhere. Am I overlooking it?

2. Any tips/tricks for playing SM, especially vs Orks?

3. My list, for your review:

1x Librarian 100 pts - The Avenger and ???

1x Tactical Squad, 9 Marines and 1 Sergeant
+ Flamer
+ ML
+ Powerfist
+ Meltabombs

1x Tactical Squad, 9 Marines and 1 Sergeant
+ Flamer
+ ML
+ Powerfist
+ Meltabombs

They are identical squads, I know. I took melta bombs because I ended up with 10 extra points to spend, and figured why not? Any changes you would make? I was debating between a multi-melta instead of the second launcher, but the range seemed useful, since I won't likely see a lot of armor (from what I hear). I couldn't decide on a second power for the librarian either.

Lastly, I offer this... thing I made. I found a similar spreadsheet for tracking points and lists, but it was ugly and inefficient. This does NOT contain any copyrighted material, so don't feel guilty about downloading it.

Basically it will track the points you spend, give you some stats, and also creates the first sheet that you can print out, which lists all your troops with names, and lists each upgrade you purchased. I think it might be useful, but maybe you already have something better.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GX2QFBX2

Thanks again!!

The only advice that I can give you if you play at the 500 pt level is that you need numbers.
Moreover, don't go overboard with upgrades.

Can you take a land raider in 500pt?

yes, you CAN take a LR in 500 pts.


Chaplain

Scout squad(bolt pistols and CCWs)

Scout squad(bolt pistols and CCWs)

Landraider

500 pts even.






I reccomend if you want to have all your basic troopers with BPs and CCWs to switch over to BAs so you can take assault squads as troops.


However heres a basic 1000 pts list building on what you have or should get in the near future.

HQ
Epistolary Librarian in terminator armor with Storm Shield. 190 pts

Troops
10 man Tactical squad. Powerfist, melta bombs and Combi-melta on the Sergeant, Meltagun and Missile launcher. 215 pts Razorback with TL-HB. 40 pts

10 man Tactical squad. Powerfist, melta bombs and Combi-melta on the Sergeant, Meltagun and Missile launcher. 215 pts Razorback with TL-HB. 40 pts.

Elites
5 Assault terminators. 5 TH/SS. 200 pts

Heavy Support
Thunderfire cannon 100 pts

1000 pts even.


List has a decent amount of fire power. Combat squads with a Combi-melta and Meltagun can handle any heavy tanks that get close while the Missile launcher squads, Razorbacks and TFC provide anti-infantry suppression.

Terminators and Librarian are an anvil unit that can smash pretty much anything you will find in the 1000 pt range.

stormywaters wrote:1. Corennus said earlier in the thread that a Multi-Melta is twin-linked, but I can't find that in the book anywhere. Am I overlooking it?

Not on a LR. I forget where they're TL ...

stormywaters wrote:2. Any tips/tricks for playing SM, especially vs Orks?

Shoot 'em. Stay outta h2h.

stormywaters wrote:1x Librarian 100 pts - The Avenger and ???

Quickening or MotA, in that order.

stormywaters wrote:
1x Tactical Squad, 9 Marines and 1 Sergeant
+ Flamer
+ ML
+ Powerfist
+ Meltabombs

Since it'll be rare that an opponent will drop in the AV14 LR, skip the meltaBs. The Pfist ought to take care of armor well enough.**

stormywaters wrote:They are identical squads, I know. I took melta bombs because I ended up with 10 extra points to spend, and figured why not? Any changes you would make?

**How about Art Armor for the lib? Really though, you're at a point of either upgrading to PlasCans or meltaguns in the squads. Run the list as is and get some experience under your belt.

Brothererekose wrote:

stormywaters wrote:1. Corennus said earlier in the thread that a Multi-Melta is twin-linked, but I can't find that in the book anywhere. Am I overlooking it?

Not on a LR. I forget where they're TL ...

stormywaters wrote:2. Any tips/tricks for playing SM, especially vs Orks?

Shoot 'em. Stay outta h2h.

stormywaters wrote:1x Librarian 100 pts - The Avenger and ???

Quickening or MotA, in that order.

stormywaters wrote:
1x Tactical Squad, 9 Marines and 1 Sergeant
+ Flamer
+ ML
+ Powerfist
+ Meltabombs

Since it'll be rare that an opponent will drop in the AV14 LR, skip the meltaBs. The Pfist ought to take care of armor well enough.**

stormywaters wrote:They are identical squads, I know. I took melta bombs because I ended up with 10 extra points to spend, and figured why not? Any changes you would make?

**How about Art Armor for the lib? Really though, you're at a point of either upgrading to PlasCans or meltaguns in the squads. Run the list as is and get some experience under your belt.

I looked everywhere and can't find that the Multi-Melta is twin-linked.

Also, I would skip Melta bombs, but I had 10 points left and nothing better to do with them. Also, as far as I can tell, Librarian can't take Art Armor... only Termie armor.

Thanks a ton though guys!! Helps a lot!

Is there a reason the 1000 point list doesn't have any fast attack squads, or much in the way of assault squads anyway (besides, I think, the Terminator squad)?

Corennus said earlier in the thread that a Multi-Melta is twin-linked, but I can't find that in the book anywhere. Am I overlooking it?

Mutli meltas don't start twin linked, although Vulkan He'Stan is a fairly popular character, and makes multi-meltas twin-linked (as well as other things Pg 93 of the space marine codex)

Sorry to necro my thread, just wanted to update you guys if anyone is interested.

I played a list with the two identical squads (1x ML, 1x Flamer, Sarge with PFist and Meltabombs), and a Librarian with The Avenger and Null Zone. My friend brought his orks and we played a couple games. Here is how it went:

Game 1, playing on my kitchen table with no terrain at all:

He starts the charge, and I just fire missiles until he is in Bolter range. He somehow picks off a couple of my marines with his Shootas, thanks to good rolls and my poor rolls for armor saves. He closes the gap quickly and I fail probably 8 or 10 consecutive armor saves. He finishes me off rather quickly, although my Librarian takes out 5 or 6 orks in solo combat.

Game 2, at the LGS, with terrain:

I start with ML shots again, until he is in range. My Bolters start to rapidly dispose of his orks, while one of his squads is moving through cover. One ML picks off his war buggy while they rest of the squad is out of Bolter range. The first squad is eliminated before they even get to charge. I start working at the troops that are moving through terrain, taking out a few of them. He moves in and misjudges the distance, landing a few inches short of charge range. My squads move up with the Librarian, and Flamers/Avenger plus Bolters clear up a large portion of the mobs. He charges, takes out a couple Marines, but Power Armor saves most of them. I finish him off without much trouble.

End result: 2 Space Marines and 1 Librarian lost, all his Orks destroyed.

So, that being said, I found my Librarian doing nothing while waiting for range. Then when he is in range of the Flamers, he charges and I can't use them any more, nor can my Librarian use his Avenger power. How do I adjust to make this more beneficial for me? The Flamers are great, but if he moves in and charges before I get a chance to use them, they are useless.

Any ideas? Thanks again to everyone for helping!!

even if you don't upgrade your libby to be able to use 2 powers a turn he still recieves 2 powers. You could give him Smite to give him something to do before the orks show up.

Yeah, I took Null Zone (I think it's called) originally. I was advised not to take two shooty-type powers since I can only use one, even with the Epistolary upgrade.