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Ok so we played a few games of kill teams tonight with generous cover as suggested by the book.

Every time the team with 13 Lootas on it won. We were playing 2v2, so 4 teams total, 2 per side.

The lootas played with Tyranids, IG and GK as allies but they won every time, so the pattern showing seems to favor Lootas.

My question is: Is a list of all Lootas overpowered in this game type?

We soft banned the Doom Of Mal'XXXXX (whatever his name is) so he didn't make an appearance. But I really thought Lootas would only be average in this game type and yet they proved to be very good at it.

Your opinions please!

Thanks

The majority of ork units are low cost with a high number of attacks. And poopy bs, which lootas can mitigate with a lucky d3, hella shots, hella range, 3 attacks on the charge.

Yeah I never actually had anyone get close enough for me to Waaaagh! after them but it did come close on the first game.

Regardless, Lootas are being called OP at the moment, and I would like opinions either way.


Thanks.

<edited as I was incorrect about the mission type>

labmouse42 wrote:1) Lootas are elite choices, not troops. You cannot have a army of just lootas.

2) 2/3 of standard missions are objectives. If 10 lootas cannot kill off 29 grots going to ground on an objective, what good did they do? In that situation, the grots are more useful for winning the game.

3) Lootas have very weak armor, and are not the best in assault. Snikrot and his krew could wreck an entire squad of loota's day very quickly.

Overall, lootas are good units, but not the 'Win Button' they seem at first.

He's talking about kill teams from the battle mission book which allows you to field 0-1 elites 0-2 troops and 0-1 fast attack, so yes he can have an army of just lootas.

@OP: Kill teams is just for fun, so if you feel like fielding lootas than field lootas. Me and my friend were actually talking about lootas the other day for kill teams, we decided that all three of the "special models" should get relentless for some really crazy games.

@Luthon1234:
So what would you take to fight against them?
(in addition, the most you can get is Relentless and S&P, there's one USR left available)

I recently participated in Doubles Kill Team Tourney... and it was horrible.
Granted, their BS is low, but who the hell cares...?

Long range guns.
High Str, Decent AP value at Kill team without being to good where cover would muck it up.
Rate of fire is an average 2, which is pretty good.
You need to house rule how you resolve how many shots they get (individually or all together).

Then they are at a respectable number of models and T4 more importantly.

/shrug, if they get the high ground, there's just no point to play IMO.
No outflanking, no deepstriking.
The only think you can rely on is blocking line of sight terrain all the way to their face and/or infiltrators...even then the 12/18" allows for at least a round of shooting...and they can even charge at a respectable offensive statline.

Ugh.

It's like doom, I don't consider it a 'fun' game anymore, a competitive choice, yes.

Sanctjud wrote:@Luthon1234:
You need to house rule how you resolve how many shots they get (individually or all together).

I was rolling the D3 for each individual Loota. USR's were relentless, counter attack, stealth.

We had a game where a tyranid player took 30+ gaunts and his teammate had 20+ IG. I was positive at the start of that game that the
lootas would be toast but they managed to hang on for a win because of forced Ld check.

I guess I have to agree with Sanctjud now after thinking about it more. I'll be shelving them for this game type, they can sit next to DoM.

Yea, maybe we can push the discussion to, how would you counter this... and is tailoring required.

How about terrain, does it have to be completely "F.U. Lootas", for the opponent to have a chance?

Granted, it's Kill Team, it's a 'fun' points level and I doubt there was too much play testing. There will certainly be rock-paper-scissor issues.

I find it hard to believe they were so tough. I have ran my lootas in many games, and never been even happy with their performace, now, mind you, i have never played the style you are speaking of. But any space marines really should be able to trounce these guys. They are only AP 4, so you would get all your 3+ saves, they cannot move then shoot, so just charge them. You would have damn near the same number, dont trade shots, just get in there. Their saves are crap and they got one wound. Move, run wait. Move run wait. Move assault kill.



13 lootas average 26 shots, 2/3 miss automatically by odds, so 8/9 hit, then armor saves, statitisically speaking 67% are fine, so 33% which is 2-3 wounds average. If it a single squad against a single squad? I don't really see taking 3 wounds as critical to failure. It would be pretty devastating to other orks, or nids players since majority armor for them would be 6 or so, but against SM? Might be a little hard, but hey, thats what tactics are for. Though I do agree DoM is broken and should be banned

Sanctjud wrote:Yea, maybe we can push the discussion to, how would you counter this... and is tailoring required.

How about terrain, does it have to be completely "F.U. Lootas", for the opponent to have a chance?

Granted, it's Kill Team, it's a 'fun' points level and I doubt there was too much play testing. There will certainly be rock-paper-scissor issues.

All of the terrain we had was either 4+ or 5+ cover, maybe we really need a bunch of LOS blocking for it to work.

At least give them an avenue of approach that they can't be touched.

The other thing about this though is that I'm not going to just let them kill me when they approach, once they close in I will Waaaagh into them for better or worse I'm not taking the charge. Does that just add to them being a bit over the top?

@Warlordron'swaagh
They generally do well for me in regular games as I just take them for MC duty and light transport popping.

In this game though, they really are a different animal. At 200 points you are fielding 10 marines, you start (at the closest) 18" away. Which as you said is 2-3 marines lost per round and it will take you 2 rounds to reach me, so you're taking Ld tests to see if you lose the game before you even hit me. Not to mention I'd be a fool to actually line them up 18" away from you.

Don't get me wrong I was in the same boat, I thought they'd do Ok at best. But it's just not how this particular game plays out.


If I field them again in KT we will set up more LOS blocking terrain to give some better approach for the enemies. Then I guess I'll have an answer for what they do on the Waaaagh.

Cover saves are everywhere.
If you go with Sternguard:
A. You still have to get into range.
B. You still are dealing with T4.
C. There is max 8, but more likely 6-7 sternguard which is pretty low model count.

There is an issue with the terrain, what sort of fire lanes are available, what quality of terrain is there.
Are there open spaces, etc.,etc.

A 3+ save is nice, but like all things lootas, they have enough shots to overload what ever they want to shoot at.

On average they have 26 shots, hits on 5's, wounds on 2's...that's 2-3 marines down...and they can castle in a corner, and then you have what...one infiltrating Marine...and then everyone else is 40+" away... great for lootas.

What I can think of...
Mass infiltrators (assuming the lootas don't send 2-3 on the edges of the deployment zone to push infiltrators back).

-Harker, vets.
-Stealers.
-Striking Scorps.
-Ratlings.
-Stormtroopers
-Chosen.
-SM (variety) Scouts.
etc.

So with respect to shooting, Orks have T4 and 4+ cover...which is like Scout Durability.
Combat is a much better as you only deal with T4 and a bad armor save.

So of the limited selections above, there are a handful that do combat (well or not well).
Of which, you want the speedy kind.

So, the SM Scouts (due to scouts) and stealers.
With the SM Scouts, I feel the lower WS is a problem, but they do strike first.
Stealers seem good with fleet and such.

Then it's up to terrain.
Fire Lanes, are they on a tall building?
Are they castled together or are they casteled in two different spots.
Are they sending some lootas to run up and take charges and hopefully die and give them more time to shoot...etc.

As for :

I find it hard to believe they were so tough.

/shrug, that was my experience... (the ork player didn't even know much about the game/was returned to 5th ed wet between the ears/I don't know, but all he did was roll dice and listen to his partner).

I think they won every game they played, but they still placed 9th out of 10 teams, I'm presuming they got slammed on soft scores.

Yeah I played against genestealers too, I thought they would be the end of my lootas but they were only able to get 2 stealers in base contact.

1 killed a loota then died the next turn to loota fire, the other tied up a loota (the one that had FnP) for 2 rounds then died in melee to the loota (low probability I know but dice sucked for nid player on that combat).

The rest just couldn't make it in time, too many shots, I was set up along the back line and was able to fire between cover so some didn't even get a save.

The tyranid player wanted more cover, we really should have added it.

Some IG ratlings and stormtroopers did well, they were able to hide in a 4+ cover and send several shots my way, they were able to force me to take an Ld, but by that time they had already taken and passed 2 Ld tests and they failed the next one.

If you allow chaos daemons to come in with daemonic assault they might be able to lay some smack down on the lootas. I know there is an argument for whether that works in KT or not, but it's worth a shot.

Maybe jump troops? BA can put in 2 units of 5 each with a flamer right? That might cause some damage.

Dangerous Terrain Checks can be brutal.
Not only dangerous, but most likely you'll need to roll difficult terrain to charge them too.

Jump pack is fast though, 12" move plus run.

Still 10 dudes. 2-3 kills in one shooting phase while being able to shoot from 48" away in cross table deployment zones......

Yeah I wasn't thinking about the dangerous or the difficult in assault.

What we really need are fleet beasts or cavalry that can infiltrate and get move through cover.

Beasts or cav get the 12" assault, and with fleet that's a 24" threat range, give them assault grenades and we'll be set.

Anyone know of such a unit? lol

But they can't get up to the second floor of a building or ruin....

Haha, well I guess as long as we're setting up LOS blocking terrain so they can advance and making sure they get cover no matter what we can scrap the buildings too.

I dunno, we only have 1 building and we put it in the middle so no one got to deploy in it.

It's what the ratlings and stormtroopers were hiding in when they caused my Ld check. No one ever tried to get up to the 3rd floor though.

What else has a 48" range that can fit into 200 pts? Know of anyting?

I know of 48" weapons... I just don't know how to fit 13 of them in 200 points.
They outrange sniper rifles which is IMO funny.

I'm beginning to think it goes back to my statement that the Lootas only have to worry about terrain...

Yeah it's definitely looking that way.

I won't be fielding them for KT missions in my gaming group anymore. Maybe in a local tourney.

BTW you mentioned someone fielded them in a tourney you played in and they won every game and finished second to last.

Do most tourney soft scores affect the outcome that much?

Seems a little harsh, I mean even if the dude was being TFG all wins would merit higher than 9 of 10 I would think.

30 Ork boyz with shootas is next on my list, should be fun, and hopefully more fun for my opponents than the 4 games we played last night.

I've had mixed results w/ Lootas. A few times they've been obliterated by end of Turn 2. A few times softened up the opponent enough by Turn 2 or 3 that it contributed to my victory. To answer the question of being OP'd? I guess it depends on how lucky your rolls are The D3 for shots can be great or useless. Then the 2 BS... in groups of 5 i've landed 10+ hits on enemy units. In groups of 10 I've landed 0-2 hits on enemy units. That about sums it up for me: mixed results. I'm not even sure how I feel about Lootas, tbh.

I played against lootas using 7x harlequins with death jester, troupe leader, and two fusion pistols. Stealth on the jester, feel no pain on the leader, and infiltrate on one of the pistolleers. Being able to move up to 12" while ignoring terrain and sticking to cover was very nice, and I was able to deny shots by staying out of LOS when Hit and Running. I managed a win, but it was a pyrrhic victory costing me five of my soldiers.

The lootas were a unit that I gave a hard look over before choosing harlies. Necron Immortals with Scarabs were another and the choice that won our KT tourney.

None of the battle missions scenarios are suppose to be used in competitive play why are yall making them to be so? I guess if you really wanted to run a tournament just for kill teams then I guess you would just ban lootas altogether or better yet ban all elite and fast attack and just only allow troops with no special characters and a minimum of one special weapon (sergeant upgrades included).

Lootas are tough but just remember that the table you are playing on should be very limited and you should be able to see combat very early and everything should be able to get cover saves easily as terrain should be every where.

Cover saves everywhere isn't the issue.
Reliance on a gaming groups' quality of terrain is the issue...

I'm trying to point out that... lootas only fear one thing, terrain. They really have no glaring issues with taking on any other type of army.

Just having alot of terrain is not the same as how dense the 3 dimensional terrain is...and that's what i'm getting at...they only fear lots of Blocking Line of Sight terrain all the way to their lines...which results in...well the only way to beat them as you are not gonna out range them/outshoot them.

Termies have a little more trouble since they only can get 5 total wounds for kt. You need to use cover, and kill the other orks that need to get close. If they have thirteen lootas and a rokkit launcha on a mek, then you just advance through cover. Always run, until you KNOW you can assault them. Seperate the termies into 3 groups, two of the groups have normal terminators, and the sergeant advances seperately. All you need to do is try and kill them asap. You only need to kill half, since the orks will most likely fail their ld check.

Sanctjud wrote:Cover saves everywhere isn't the issue.
Reliance on a gaming groups' quality of terrain is the issue...

I'm trying to point out that... lootas only fear one thing, terrain. They really have no glaring issues with taking on any other type of army.

Just having alot of terrain is not the same as how dense the 3 dimensional terrain is...and that's what i'm getting at...they only fear lots of Blocking Line of Sight terrain all the way to their lines...which results in...well the only way to beat them as you are not gonna out range them/outshoot them.

Battle missions was probably NOT play tested so I expected some pretty gross stuff to happen which is why I would not play in kill team tournament. Like I said I would just ban elites and fast attack in a kill teams tournament its the only fair way I could think of handling something like that.

@Luthon1234:
I know, but it doesn't stop tourneys from happening.

I was jumping onto what I thought would be a thought experiment if we approach it competitively and ask...what do we do?

I did cover my bases and you can read my post again where I did say at the Kill Team level, it can get pretty Rock-Paper-Scissor.

So... rather than the easy ban hammer, what could you do?

If we have "enough" 3D terrain to make lootas balanced then does that make something else unbalanced? Genestealers for example.

Rhetorical question obviously but next week I'll try to have much more terrain, with more LOS blocking and see how they fare.

Sanctjud wrote:@Luthon1234:
I know, but it doesn't stop tourneys from happening.

I was jumping onto what I thought would be a thought experiment if we approach it competitively and ask...what do we do?

I did cover my bases and you can read my post again where I did say at the Kill Team level, it can get pretty Rock-Paper-Scissor.

So... rather than the easy ban hammer, what could you do?

I guess I could take a look into it. I guess I had a reading comprehension fail didn't know you wanted me to come up with something to counter it.

Ok messing with army builder and using imperial guard codex. Now I've only played a couple of games with Kill team's so this is with the assumption that models may band together to form one unit.

1 Veteran squad x10- flamersx3 shot guns x6 sergeant armed with a bolt pistol, gave them forward sentries.
Chimera: Heavy flamer sponson, dozer blades, extra armor.

total: 197

12 armor so it isn't totally easy to penetrate dozer blades are there in case you roll a 1 and the extra armor ensures that you keep moving, flamers are there to ignore cover and shot guns because you want as many shots as you can get before you get charged/charge. Let me know what you think and if not we can probably think of something else.

Assuming all the GEQ's can get in.
It wouldn't be hard for the Ork player to spread out, so that nomatter how you advanced into the Ork quarter, they will have AV10, just up in the air, but it's not a small target and on average there's like 7 hits...something permanent is IMO likely.

They would still need a good round of shooting and if their dice roll is bad then they can end up only getting one shot. Even if they did pop the chimera they still have to deal with 10 veteran guardsmen that all have the stealth rule plus they'll most likely be in cover and have flame weapons to boot.

Luthon, remember that each model is it's own unit, so each loota rolls it's d3 shots separately. That mitigates some of the randomness in the number of shots and provides a more average and reliable amount of firing. Of course, the dice gods be fickle, but I'd place my faith in 10 rolls before I would in 1.

My gaming group's tourney didn't allow vehicles... I'm guessing this restriction isn't in the Battle Missions book? Otherwise, you could take a fully involved Ironclad in a drop pod - a model with no Ld score...