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so the Spearhead rule, and power of the machine spirit, are both worded the same. They both allow you to "fire one more weapon than normally allowed."

Does this mean that a landraider in a spearhead formation, may NOT fire both lascannons after moving twelve? They have two rules telling them they may fire ONE more than NORMAL, and the normal here would be "none." One more than none, is One.

I discussed with a couple guys yesterday at my local GW, and the consesus was that I am wrong.

Falconlance wrote:so the Spearhead rule, and power of the machine spirit, are both worded the same. They both allow you to "fire one more weapon than normally allowed."

Does this mean that a landraider in a spearhead formation, may NOT fire both lascannons after moving twelve? They have two rules telling them they may fire ONE more than NORMAL, and the normal here would be "none." One more than none, is One.

I discussed with a couple guys yesterday at my local GW, and the consesus was that I am wrong.

They just want to be able to cheese out.

You are right. You have two rules saying you can fire one more than normally allowed. Once you fire one weapon, you satisfy both instances of the rules. Nowhere does it say it DOES stack, so it doesn't.

Gwar! wrote:Nowhere does it say it DOES stack, so it doesn't.

Nowhere does it say it DOESN'T stack, so 1+1=2. "Normal" for a Land Raider is (normal for a vehicle) + 1.

thebetter1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Nowhere does it say it DOES stack, so it doesn't.

Nowhere does it say it DOESN'T stack, so 1+1=2. "Normal" for a Land Raider is (normal for a vehicle) + 1.

Nowhere does it say that Space Marines don't move 12", or have Strength 10, or automatically win the game on a 1+. Similarly, the rules do not say you can't hit your opponent in the face with hammer.

The rules have to say you CAN do something. If it doesn't, you can't. It's that simple.

Gwar! wrote:Nowhere does it say that Space Marines don't move 12", or have Strength 10, or automatically win the game on a 1+. Similarly, the rules do not say you can't hit your opponent in the face with hammer.

The rules have to say you CAN do something. If it doesn't, you can't. It's that simple.

This is not about doing something the rules don't tell you to do. If you are told to do a specific thing, and then told to do it again, you cannot possibly argue that you are acting illegally by doing it twice.

thebetter1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Nowhere does it say that Space Marines don't move 12", or have Strength 10, or automatically win the game on a 1+. Similarly, the rules do not say you can't hit your opponent in the face with hammer.

The rules have to say you CAN do something. If it doesn't, you can't. It's that simple.

This is not about doing something the rules don't tell you to do. If you are told to do a specific thing, and then told to do it again, you cannot possibly argue that you are acting illegally by doing it twice.

If the rule said "You may fire one more weapon", or "may fire an additional weapon" then yes, it would stack.

That's not what the rule says. It says you may fire "one more weapon THAN NORMAL".

Firing 2 Weapons more than normal is not firing One more weapon than normal.

Gwar! wrote:
That's not what the rule says. It says you may fire "one more weapon THAN NORMAL".

Firing 2 Weapons more than normal is not firing One more weapon than normal.

A normal vehicle can fire a base number of weapons.

A normal Land Raider can fire base + 1 weapons.

A spearhead vehicle is allowed to fire however many normal weapons it gets plus one. Therefore, a spearhead Land Raider gets its normal weapons, and then one more. More specifically, it gets (base + 1) + 1, or base + 2.

thebetter1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:
That's not what the rule says. It says you may fire "one more weapon THAN NORMAL".

Firing 2 Weapons more than normal is not firing One more weapon than normal.

A normal vehicle can fire a base number of weapons.

A normal Land Raider can fire base + 1 weapons.

A spearhead vehicle is allowed to fire however many normal weapons it gets plus one. Therefore, a spearhead Land Raider gets its normal weapons, and then one more. More specifically, it gets (base + 1) + 1, or base + 2.

Nope. Because it being a land raider allows it to fire one more than normal - that is base + 1. The Spearhead rule also allows it to fire once more than normal - again, base + 1. The whole (base + 1) + 1 thing doesn't work because '(base + 1)' isn't normal - 'base' is.

I was having a real hard time getting these guys to accept that last part of the sentence, one more than normal. They had a bad habit of reciting "one more weapon." and leaving out that last part.

Their stronger arguments included, "I see what you're saying, but trust me." and, "Well being GW, you can only assume that if it gives Space Marines an advantage, that's how they intended it to work."

Aelyn wrote:
Nope. Because it being a land raider allows it to fire one more than normal - that is base + 1. The Spearhead rule also allows it to fire once more than normal - again, base + 1. The whole (base + 1) + 1 thing doesn't work because '(base + 1)' isn't normal - 'base' is.

Being a Land Raider lets you shoot 1 more weapon than a standard vehicle. Being in a spearhead allows you to fire 1 more weapon than the kind of vehicle you are could normally shoot. For Land Raiders, the extra weapon IS normal.

Falconlance wrote:Well being GW, you can only assume that if it gives Space Marines an advantage, that's how they intended it to work.

It would be unfair to say that Space Marines, who pay for this extra weapon, get no benefit, while everyone else who does not pay gets it anyway.

thebetter1 wrote:

Aelyn wrote:
Nope. Because it being a land raider allows it to fire one more than normal - that is base + 1. The Spearhead rule also allows it to fire once more than normal - again, base + 1. The whole (base + 1) + 1 thing doesn't work because '(base + 1)' isn't normal - 'base' is.

Being a Land Raider lets you shoot 1 more weapon than a standard vehicle. Being in a spearhead allows you to fire 1 more weapon than the kind of vehicle you are could normally shoot. For Land Raiders, the extra weapon IS normal.

Falconlance wrote:Well being GW, you can only assume that if it gives Space Marines an advantage, that's how they intended it to work.

It would be unfair to say that Space Marines, who pay for this extra weapon, get no benefit, while everyone else who does not pay gets it anyway.

If you are claiming that the fact that the land raider possesses a rule that always allows it to fire one more weapon than normal, makes +1 normal, then by that logic, power of the machine spirit itself lets it fire 2 more weapons than another vehicle could, "because for land raiders, the extra weapon IS normal" in which case, the spearhead rule STILL wouldn't change anything.

moving cruising speed for a non fast vehicle, means 0 weapons are normally permitted.

Falconlance wrote:
moving cruising speed for a non fast vehicle, means 0 weapons are normally permitted.

We aren't talking about vehicles. We are talking about Land Raiders.

Falconlance wrote:
If you are claiming that the fact that the land raider possesses a rule that always allows it to fire one more weapon than normal, makes +1 normal, then by that logic, power of the machine spirit itself lets it fire 2 more weapons than another vehicle could, "because for land raiders, the extra weapon IS normal" in which case, the spearhead rule STILL wouldn't change anything.

You're trying to make my logic look circular, even though it is not. Land Raiders add a weapon to the standard vehicle rules. Spearheads add a weapon to the vehicle in question.

thebetter1 wrote:

You're trying to make my logic look circular, even though it is not. Land Raiders add a weapon to the standard vehicle rules. Spearheads add a weapon to the vehicle in question.

Naw, not at all, what I am trying to point out to you if you are willing to accept the interpretation that the ability to fire one more gun than normal, is in fact, the normal state, then the power of the machine spirit itself would already allow you two more weapons than normal, without even considering the spearhead rule.

Falconlance wrote:
Naw, not at all, what I am trying to point out to you if you are willing to accept the interpretation that the ability to fire one more gun than normal, is in fact, the normal state, then the power of the machine spirit itself would already allow you two more weapons than normal, without even considering the spearhead rule.

Either you did not read my argument or you are making things up. Land Raiders normally get 1 more weapon than vehicles because of PotMS. Nothing says to add another, until Spearhead.

Okay, both rules use the term 'normally allowed'.
Now whichever way one cuts it, if one is allowed to fire no weapons and one uses either the Spearhead or PotMS to fire a weapon - One has now fired one weapon - one more than actually allowed.
So if one went on to fire a second weapon one would be lacking a rule that allows one to fire two more weapons than normally allowed.

thebetter1 wrote:

Falconlance wrote:
Naw, not at all, what I am trying to point out to you if you are willing to accept the interpretation that the ability to fire one more gun than normal, is in fact, the normal state, then the power of the machine spirit itself would already allow you two more weapons than normal, without even considering the spearhead rule.

Either you did not read my argument or you are making things up. Land Raiders normally get 1 more weapon than vehicles because of PotMS. Nothing says to add another, until Spearhead.

Spearhead doesn't say vehicles get "1 more weapon," it says they can fire "one more than normal." PotMS also says they can fire, "one more than normal."

Are you NOT claiming that firing "one more than normal" is "normal" for a landraider? Because from here it looks like that's what you're trying to say.

ChrisCP wrote:Okay, both rules use the term 'normally allowed'.
Now whichever way one cuts it, if one is allowed to fire no weapons and one uses either the Spearhead or PotMS to fire a weapon - One has now fired one weapon - one more than actually allowed.
So if one went on to fire a second weapon one would be lacking a rule that allows one to fire two more weapons than normally allowed.

The result of PotMS is that the Land Raider can normally fire one more weapon than a standard vehicle. It is obviously not one more than is normal for a Land Raider, as rules cannot possibly be written that way.

The spearhead rule, on the other hand, gives the vehicle one more weapon than would be normally allowed for that vehicle. Normal vehicles get a number of weapons per turn, fast vehicles get more, vehicles with PotMS get more, and these are all normal.

Falconlance wrote:
Spearhead doesn't say vehicles get "1 more weapon," it says they can fire "one more than normal." PotMS also says they can fire, "one more than normal."

Are you NOT claiming that firing "one more than normal" is "normal" for a landraider? Because from here it looks like that's what you're trying to say.

That is exactly what I am saying, minus the poor choice of wording using the repetition of "normal" without context.

thebetter1 wrote:
The spearhead rule, on the other hand, gives the vehicle one more weapon than would be normally allowed for that vehicle. Normal vehicles get a number of weapons per turn, fast vehicles get more, vehicles with PotMS get more, and these are all normal.

This is your point of error, a vehicle with PotMs normally would only be allowed to fire no weapons. A special rule 'PotMS' allows it to fire one more than allowed, one can't have two 'one more than allowed' clauses resulting in two weapons fired as that will have broken both rules by having the net shots fired bing two more than normally allowed.

If you choose not to grasp this point then good luck to you.

thebetter1 wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:Okay, both rules use the term 'normally allowed'.
Now whichever way one cuts it, if one is allowed to fire no weapons and one uses either the Spearhead or PotMS to fire a weapon - One has now fired one weapon - one more than actually allowed.
So if one went on to fire a second weapon one would be lacking a rule that allows one to fire two more weapons than normally allowed.

The result of PotMS is that the Land Raider can normally fire one more weapon than a standard vehicle. It is obviously not one more than is normal for a Land Raider, as rules cannot possibly be written that way.

The spearhead rule, on the other hand, gives the vehicle one more weapon than would be normally allowed for that vehicle. Normal vehicles get a number of weapons per turn, fast vehicles get more, vehicles with PotMS get more, and these are all normal.

Falconlance wrote:
Spearhead doesn't say vehicles get "1 more weapon," it says they can fire "one more than normal." PotMS also says they can fire, "one more than normal."

Are you NOT claiming that firing "one more than normal" is "normal" for a landraider? Because from here it looks like that's what you're trying to say.

That is exactly what I am saying, minus the poor choice of wording using the repetition of "normal" without context.

Out of curiosity, what makes you believe that the standard for number of weapons "normally allowed" should be judged based on special rules that already alter the number of weapons "normally allowed"?

Falconlance wrote:
Out of curiosity, what makes you believe that the standard for number of weapons "normally allowed" should be judged based on special rules that already alter the number of weapons "normally allowed"?

The special rules altering the number of weapons "normally allowed" change what is "normal" for that vehicle. On the other hand, the Spearhead rules do not change what is "normal", as you could have some Land Raiders not under the influence of the rule.

ChrisCP wrote:
This is your point of error, a vehicle with PotMs normally would only be allowed to fire no weapons.

No, this is the point of your error. How can you tell me that a vehicle with PotMS would not normally get to fire any additional weapons right after saying it has PotMS? PotMS changes the way the vehicle ALWAYS fires, therefore it changes what is normal.

thebetter1 wrote:

Falconlance wrote:
Out of curiosity, what makes you believe that the standard for number of weapons "normally allowed" should be judged based on special rules that already alter the number of weapons "normally allowed"?

The special rules altering the number of weapons "normally allowed" change what is "normal" for that vehicle. On the other hand, the Spearhead rules do not change what is "normal", as you could have some Land Raiders not under the influence of the rule.

But aren't you already forced to determine what you are "normally allowed" to fire, JUST to use PotMS in the first place? If you have already determined that, why would the standard change?

Falconlance wrote:
But aren't you already forced to determine what you are "normally allowed" to fire, JUST to use PotMS in the first place? If you have already determined that, why would the standard change?

For PotMS, you have to figure out what a tank would normally fire. For the Spearhead Rule, you have to figure out what the Land Raider would normally fire, a huge difference. Haven't I said this many times before?

PotMS is a special rule/ability - hardly normal

Catachan_Devil wrote:PotMS is a special rule/ability - hardly normal

It's normal if you are a Land Raider. We are discussing only Land Raiders, therefore, for the purposes of this discussion, PotMS is normal.

thebetter1 wrote:

Falconlance wrote:
But aren't you already forced to determine what you are "normally allowed" to fire, JUST to use PotMS in the first place? If you have already determined that, why would the standard change?

For PotMS, you have to figure out what a tank would normally fire. For the Spearhead Rule, you have to figure out what the Land Raider would normally fire, a huge difference. Haven't I said this many times before?

They are worded exactly the same though, I don't see where youre getting that the spearhead rule tells you to take into account any other rules that modify what you can "normally fire."

Falconlance wrote:
They are worded exactly the same though, I don't see where youre getting that the spearhead rule tells you to take into account any other rules that modify what you can "normally fire."

The Spearhead rule builds on the standard 40k rules. The standard 40k rules have Land Raiders normally shooting an additional weapon. When you build on this, that extra weapon is normal.

Did you see a flaw in my logic about normal abilities or are you just ignoring it?

The way I see it is the rules have been changed in Spearhead.

All vehicles moving up to cruising speed can fire one more weapon than normal. This changes what is considered "normal" now. So the Land Raider can still use it's PoTMS

true - come to think about it i don't think that the spearhead rule is intended to remove the benifit of PotMS.. i would put this down to another ill-defined rule

i now say they stack

The flaw I see is that you must already determine what you can normally fire just to use PotMS, and that you are claiming this changes for some reason when you acquire the spearhead rule.

@ General_Chaos, the rules aren't being changed, not ALL vehicles can do this in a spearhead game. Only vehicles that belong to a spearhead formation, and are within 4'' of it, acquire the spearhead rule. It is not a blanket change.

I'd play it as PotMS works for Spearheads.