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Hah! Black Templars PoTMs bypasses this entire dilemma. Too bad it doesn't help LRCs in the slightest

I'm with Gwar! on this though. The rules overlap in function, not stack.

I think the issue here is that the general gamer mentality is that everything of the same type should stack. While I'd be fine playing that way, I do think the letter of the rules is that they do not.

but if i ask you how many weapons a Land Raider can normally fire if moving at combat speed.. what would you answer??

Catachan_Devil wrote:but if i ask you how many weapons a Land Raider can normally fire if moving at combat speed.. what would you answer??

One Main and all Defensive. It also has a special rule allowing it to do some other stuff. By the very definition, a SPECIAL rule is not NORMAL, it is SPESHUL!

thebetter1 wrote:

No, this is the point of your error. How can you tell me that a vehicle with PotMS would not normally get to fire any additional weapons right after saying it has PotMS? PotMS changes the way the vehicle ALWAYS fires, therefore it changes what is normal.

Sure it will be my point of error the second you can point to a section in the BRB that says:
"Vehicles that moved at cruising speed may fire one weapon" or
"Vehicles that move at combat speed may fire two weapons and all defensive weapons."

Then yes I'll be incorrect as to the number of weapons a vehicle can normally fire under the situations described.

So does the spearhead rule, like PotMS, override crew stunned and crew shaken results?

As to the argument about PotMS specifically, I think you two are talking in circles. I would probably play it as landraider gets an extra shot (otherwise they are paying a bunch of points for a spearhead and don't get a benefit from the central bonus of having a spearhead), but I can see merit on both sides.

Kolath wrote:So does the spearhead rule, like PotMS, override crew stunned and crew shaken results?

As to the argument about PotMS specifically, I think you two are talking in circles. I would probably play it as landraider gets an extra shot (otherwise they are paying a bunch of points for a spearhead and don't get a benefit from the central bonus of having a spearhead), but I can see merit on both sides.

The Spearhead rule works exactly like power of the machine spirit. It even allows you to fire a weapon at a separate target.

Kolath wrote:So does the spearhead rule, like PotMS, override crew stunned and crew shaken results?

As to the argument about PotMS specifically, I think you two are talking in circles. I would probably play it as landraider gets an extra shot (otherwise they are paying a bunch of points for a spearhead and don't get a benefit from the central bonus of having a spearhead), but I can see merit on both sides.

as i said earlier - i don't think the spearhead rule is ment to remove/replace the benifit of PotMS

another backflip

PotMS is still and advantage as it can be used when there are no other spearhead units with in 4"

thebettter1 - the normal number of weapons a LR can fire is exactly the same as any other vehicle. THen PotMS kicks in - which requires you to determine the *normal* number of weapons you can fire - and says you can fire 1 more than this "normal" amount.

You are now trying to say the Spearhead rule uses an Updated version of the "normal" amount, which already takes into account the extra weapon fired by a LR. Except that is rubbish - you have the same word "normal", which is a variable based on spered, and you are trying to say PotMS redefines this variable with the "+1" before Spearhead klcks in.

Which it does not do; both rules have to be satisfied simultaneously and therefore the "normal" referenced in BOTH rules MUST be the same value.

In other words you are attempting to define an order of operations when none such exists. Your argument fails at this point.

lol I wonder if some of you people actually have any fun playing this game at all.

This is one that doesn't have a RaW answer as what is considered "normal" is not defined. There are 2 definitions of what counts as normal in the spear head rule being proposed both sides assuming there is correct and in some cases only definition.

So what is "normal" in the spearhead rules. Does normal mean the amount of weapons that a vehicle can fire according to the BRB.

Or

Is normal the amount of weapons that the given vehicle in the spear head can fire?

The former defintion being proposed instantly starts breaking down when you consider fast vehicles. Claiming that fast vehicles should be treated differently is not following that definition of normal. Thus a fast vehicle in a spear head moving 12" can fire 1 weapon and not even its defensive weapons. Thus spearheads become a bad idea for fast vehicles (though of course they'd still be able to fire 1 weapon if they moved 18" or 24").

The other definition which follows from context means that you consider what the given vehcile can normally fire. Thus a fast vehcile moving 12" can fire 1 primary weapon all defensive weapons plus one other weapon. A Landraider moving 12" can fire 2 weapons.

Claiming that PoTMS spirit is not a normal condition for a Landraider has no more merit to it than claiming that a fast vehciles shooting rules are not normal for fast vehciles. Yes it is a special rule but it is a special rule that is niormal to all landraiders just like orbital bombardment is a special rule that is normal for all chapter masters...

Fling - except it is the same "normal" executed at the same time. You are stating "normal" for PotMS is different to "normal" for spearhead, despite you having to determine the value of normal *at the same instant* in order to work out how many weapons you can fire.

Otherwise, if you are stating the value of "normal" is replaced you end up with the PotMS loop: the first value of normal is replaced with normal'+1. This is then overwritten, via PotMS stating you "fire one more weapon than normal" (note, not the notional normal prime "normal'") meaning this second "normal" is replaced with normal'+1

Which is absurd.

So you are left with the only possible answer: "normal" means exactly that in both cases - the number of weapons the vehicle can fire based on its speed AND whether it is classified as fast.

I can see your point Nos.

thebetter1 wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:PotMS is a special rule/ability - hardly normal

It's normal if you are a Land Raider. We are discussing only Land Raiders, therefore, for the purposes of this discussion, PotMS is normal.

I can see you argument that a Land Raider regularly has one more than other vehicles would in the given circumstances.
I can also see the point that vehicles normally would fire none.

I suggest, 4+ it...and play on!

I think pure RaW Nos is right the timing issue (like for instance Shrike's inflitrate) means you fullfill both rules at the same time and thus it is +1. However the intention is clear enough to conclude with absolute certainty the rule is that Landraiders get to fire 2 extra weapons.

Play it that way or play pure RaW and you can't even deploy so you stop. The choice is yours...

FlingitNow wrote:
Play it that way or play pure RaW and you can't even deploy so you stop. The choice is yours...

Where are you getting this from? The Fun List of RAW Fun? Because I completely exposed the mistake given there, yet it still got added to the list.

FlingitNow wrote:I think pure RaW Nos is right the timing issue (like for instance Shrike's inflitrate) means you fullfill both rules at the same time and thus it is +1. However the intention is clear enough to conclude with absolute certainty the rule is that Landraiders get to fire 2 extra weapons.

Play it that way or play pure RaW and you can't even deploy so you stop. The choice is yours...

Spearhead rule intended for ALL vehicles... noone made it to allow your LR's to shoot two times over normal.

Normal ammount are written in BRB, PotMS are special rule, its not anything even nearly Normal.

penek wrote:
Spearhead rule intended for ALL vehicles... noone made it to allow your LR's to shoot two times over normal.

Normal ammount are written in BRB, PotMS are special rule, its not anything even nearly Normal.

Are you saying Land Raiders are meant to not get the bonus they pay quite a lot of points for? And yes, it is normal amongst Land Raiders.

thebetter1 wrote:

penek wrote:
Spearhead rule intended for ALL vehicles... noone made it to allow your LR's to shoot two times over normal.

Normal ammount are written in BRB, PotMS are special rule, its not anything even nearly Normal.

Are you saying Land Raiders are meant to not get the bonus they pay quite a lot of points for? And yes, it is normal amongst Land Raiders.

Not for DH Land Raiders. They don't have the PotMS rule.

Normal doesn't include special rules.

Gwar! wrote:Not for DH Land Raiders. They don't have the PotMS rule.

So now you're disputing the name of special rules in a context where the name means nothing?

I'm going to catch an argument I know is coming: we are not discussing Chaos Land Raiders here.

Gwar! wrote:Normal doesn't include special rules.

It does include special rules amongst models that have those special rules. How can you say it is not normal for a Land Raider with PotMS to be able to fire one more weapon than other vehicles of the same type?

thebetter1 wrote:How can you say it is not normal for a Land Raider with PotMS to be able to fire one more weapon than other vehicles of the same type?

Like this:
It is not normal for a Land Raider with PotMS to be able to fire one more weapon than other vehicles of the same type.

Some Land Raiders have a non-Normal (also called Special) rule that allow them too however.

thebetter1 wrote:

penek wrote:
Spearhead rule intended for ALL vehicles... noone made it to allow your LR's to shoot two times over normal.

Normal ammount are written in BRB, PotMS are special rule, its not anything even nearly Normal.

Are you saying Land Raiders are meant to not get the bonus they pay quite a lot of points for? And yes, it is normal amongst Land Raiders.

you don't know when to stop? Do not confuse warm to the soft.
ps. i think you one of that "people" who trying to use Psychic Hood on harlequins Veil of Tears, no?

Gwar! wrote:It is not normal for a Land Raider with PotMS to be able to fire one more weapon than other vehicles of the same type.

There is really no way to argue with statements like this. You clearly have a very different definition of "normal" than I do. May I ask what you think "normal" means?

penek wrote:you don't know when to stop? Do not confuse warm to the soft.

What's all this about warm and soft?

penek wrote:ps. i think you one of that "people" who trying to use Psychic Hood on harlequins Veil of Tears, no?

I think you're one of that "people" who trying to radically redefine the term "normal".

Is Veil of Tears a psychic power? If not, I don't.

thebetter1 wrote:May I ask what you think "normal" means?

Look at rulebook.
See how many weapons Tanks can fire.

That is how many is normal.

thebetter1 wrote:
What's all this about warm and soft?

thats why you don't understand difference between normal rules and when special rules kick in. Warm is warm, and soft if soft, they are absolutely not the same.

Is Veil of Tears a psychic power? If not, I don't.

It is psychic power. Go find C:E and check warlock and Harlies entry

Gwar! wrote:Look at rulebook.
See how many weapons Tanks can fire.

That is how many is normal.

So what you're saying is...

Fast vehicle: normal
Walker: normal
Shaken vehicle: normal
Vehicle using smoke launchers: normal
Vehicle with Power of the Machine Spirit: not normal

Sounds pretty arbitrary to me.

thebetter1 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Look at rulebook.
See how many weapons Tanks can fire.

That is how many is normal.

So what you're saying is...

Fast vehicle: normal
Walker: normal
Shaken vehicle: normal
Vehicle using smoke launchers: normal
Vehicle with Power of the Machine Spirit: not normal

Sounds pretty arbitrary to me.

Erm... what?

No, I am saying:
Tank: What's in the Rulebook is normal for them.
Fast Vehicle: What's in the Rulebook is normal for them.
Walker: What's in the Rulebook is normal for them.
Shaken Vehicle: They normally can fire, but a special rule says they cannot.
Vehicle using smoke: They normally can fire, but a special rule says they cannot.
Tank with PotMS: They normally fire what the rulebook says they fire as tanks. They also have a SPECIAL rule allowing the to fire more weapons than normal.

So how many shots does a Leman Russ get with Lumbering Behemoth?

General_Chaos wrote:So how many shots does a Leman Russ get with Lumbering Behemoth?

Whatever a Normal Tank Gets, plus the extra NON NORMAL shots because it has a SPECIAL rule.

Special cannot be Normal. It's like speeding slowly, or Microsoft Works.

Gwar! wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:So how many shots does a Leman Russ get with Lumbering Behemoth?

Whatever a Normal Tank Gets, plus the extra NON NORMAL shots because it has a SPECIAL rule.

Special cannot be Normal. It's like speeding slowly, or Microsoft Works.

thebetter1 - i refer you back to the sort-of proof that if "normal" is not the same word in both cases (referring to the BRB rules for vehicles and moving) you end up being able to infinitiely add weapons;. Which is absurd.