Vanguard Vets...worth it?

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**Nantukoshade**

I was just wondering if anyone uses Vanguard Veterans in their lists. They seem pretty expensive, and that is just with jump packs, before you start using special weapons. What's the verdict?

**alanedomain**

The general consensus I've heard is that Sternguard = Good, Vanguard = Bad, with point cost being the deciding factor. I am also curious about the details, though, so I'll be monitoring this thread.

**wizard12**

Sort of a one trick pony, if that pony was very stupid and didn't know how to do it's tricks well.

Heroic Intervention is quite cool but at the points is takes to make them effective AND suvivible you might as well take TH/SS terminators in a landraider because there is a big chance it'll be cheaper.

**Shake Zoola**

wizard12 wrote:Sort of a one trick pony, if that pony was very stupid and didn't know how to do it's tricks well.

Heroic Intervention is quite cool but at the points is takes to make them effective AND suvivible you might as well take TH/SS terminators in a landraider because there is a big chance it'll be cheaper.

And IMHO there is something decidedly wrong with that...they should have AT LEAST come w free jump packs or a rhino...like regular assault marines!

**walledin**

The BA Codex slightly improves them by having them only scatter a single D6 but, even then they are crazily overcosted.

If you didn't have to pay for Jump packs they'd be much more reasonable but, that additional ten points just kills them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The BA Codex slightly improves them by having them only scatter a single D6 but, even then they are crazily overcosted.

If you didn't have to pay for Jump packs they'd be much more reasonable but, that additional ten points just kills them.

**Citizensmith**

Bummer, I've got some 1st edition beakies with extra equipment and the old, round jump packs. They'd make fantastic vanguards.

**yournamehere**

Shake Zoola wrote:
wizard12 wrote:Sort of a one trick pony, if that pony was very stupid and didn't know how to do it's tricks well.

Heroic Intervention is quite cool but at the points is takes to make them effective AND suvivible you might as well take TH/SS terminators in a landraider because there is a big chance it'll be cheaper.

And IMHO there is something decidedly wrong with that...they should have AT LEAST come w free jump packs or a rhino...like regular assault marines!

+1 on the free jump packs

**Spellbound**

I remember designing a unit of them, sitting back, and with a nod thinking that they'd murder anything on the board. Then I realized they didn't come with jetpacks. WHA?!

Scrapped any and all ideas for them after that.

**ivangterrace**

In games for funsies I'll run them because they can tie up guys on foot the same turn they come on the board. But, I will admit, I've had more failure than success with them. I would imagine with blood angels and their deepstrike improvement over marines, they would be an acceptable unit to field in a tournament, maybe.

But never the less, all they are is a distraction unit and nothing else. Deepstriking TH/SS terminators do a better job at this.

**gurgle**

I was going to use them in a Blood Angels army before I looked closely at the options, points and other units that were actually better for less.

**Reecius**

Situationally they are not bad, but honestly, for the points you can buy much better units.

When they do work though, they work in a big way. But if you are looking for maximum efficiency in a SM list, then steer clear of the Vanguard. Cool unit, cool concept, poor execution. In the majority of cases assault terminators are the better buy for SM assault needs, which is why you see them so prevalently.

BA can pull Vanguard off, but again, there are better units to spend the points on, IMO.

If you like them though, go for it! It is always cool to see seldom used units on the table. I just wouldn't bring them to a tournament, if tournament gaming is something you are into.

**Shrubs**

Heroic Intervention can make for a huge surprise. And surprises help you win battles. Sternguard vets are less surprising and a lot more dependable.

So I think it depends on your preferences mostly. And of course, the Vanguard vets are overpriced so they're probably not tournament material.

**DooDoo**

Vanguard are an essential part if you are running an all jump pack BA list. Anyone who says otherwise isnt playing this type of list. They force your opponent to make hard decisions and allow you to tie up some nasty units.

**Corennus**

Vanilla Vanguard aren't worth it.

Even with their 2 attacks (meaning a 10 man squad could launch 40 attack on the charge) and access to power weapons for EACH member of the squad......the points are too high.

Having to PAY for jump packs kills them, and even if they arrive by Drop Pod (the easiest way to get them into the battle), after they've DS they have to footslog while a jump packed normal assault squad can use their jump packs to go 12" each turn!

if you MUST take a Vanguard Vet squad steer clear of Relic Blades.

Example of ridiculously tooled up Vanguard Squad (10 man)

x 20 Lightning Claws (!!!)
x 10 Jump Packs
Melta Bombs x 10

TOTAL: 450!!!

Now admittedly this would mean the squad has 40 attack on the charge, with rerolled failed rolls to wound AND since all are power weapons they could prob take down a load of Terminators! (they can't ALL pass their Inv save from over 20 wounds!)

**Anpu42**

I have a freind that uses a 5 man unit with SS/Power Weapon/Jump Pack and they are very efective. The first time I experianced them they took out a 15 man Blood Claw lead by a WGPL and Wolf Priest in one Turn.

**Corennus**

Vanguards look very tough, but they're just SO expensive! One good blast template on them and it's bye bye vanguard...

For example. a 5 man vanguard team with SS/Power Weapon/Jump pack for all 5 costs:

Storm Shields: 75
Power Weapons (asume LC) : 60
Jump Packs: 50
Base Unit Cose: 125

Total: 310

You can get a full 10 man Assault Squad (meaning same number of attacks as Vanguard) for:
Sergeant: Storm Shield and LC 30
x 2 Flamers 20
Melta Bombs 5
Base Cost 190

245!

**Lycaeus Wrex**

Negating the points issue for a moment, could you not find some use for the Vanguard in a Shrike list? Deep Strike down, Fleet and then charge? Could avoid the potential embarrasment of Deep Striking too far for Heroic Intervention.

L. Wrex

**Kommissar Kel**

Lycaeus: 2 points;
1)No heroic Intervention if Shrike is attached(I don't think you meant he should be though)
2)Heroic intervention says no shoot or run, so Fleet is ineffective for them.

On Topic: 75 Points to gain assault marines with +1 Attack and slightly higher leadership is just way too much. Add in the very tempting weapon options and it just gets ridiculous.

**Anpu42**

A 5 man Jump VV Squad with a Sergeant [Relic Blade/SS], and 4 Power Weapon/SS is 325 point unit
It can be a very powerful and surprisingly hard group to kill.

**hcordes**

you want to make it really expensive, toss in a couple TH so that they can stun big creature, and ring the bells for tank crews.... *sighs* ridiculous unit... lots of potential... too many points.

**Shep**

If you want to use vanguard, my recommendation is to buy jump packs, a couple special weapons, and then deep strike as aggressively as sanely possible.

If you get a 'land-charge!' off. They are good, if you don't, they aren't.

That, of course, means that the bigger the game you are playing, the less of a risky investment they are.

Taking potential deep strike mishaps is better than landing in special weapon range, and not getting to do anything but run.

**DooDoo**

I think the true value of the vets is not in killing but the ability to tie up units (e.g. long fangs) that will shred your other deep strikers.

**ArtfcllyFlvrd**

I was just at a 22 man 1250pt tournament last weekend and the winner (by a large margin) used a big squad of vanguard.

I played him in round 3 of 4 with what I thought was a mean IG army. To be fair, he runs the vanguard in a landraider and I had two BIG rounds of whiff when I shot at it. He was then able to get his entire unit with the attached chaplain into my lines and I just never recovered.

But he and another very good player in the area use them frequently and are successful. Although I think it has more to do with the player than the unit.

**Anpu42**

The 5 Man SS/PW Jump VV can also take out Tactical Terminators good. They get the 1st Swing and the Termies get only a 5+ Save.
I know they can be taken down by massive fire, but If you don't kill off the tatgeted unit in the 1st turn, you can't be fired at.

**CaptKaruthors**

Vanguard can be a great unit, but you have to make sure you build an army around them. They are the main unit in your army at that point. I've messed around with taking vanguard in a vanilla list I came up with, but haven't had the time to run it on a table. It centers around using units with locator beacons to assist in their arrival. Someday, I'll put it to the test.

**MDizzle**

Vanguard suck never use them.

**Shake Zoola**

MDizzle wrote:Vanguard suck never use them.

Thats helpful...

**wizard12**

A large unit of plain vanguard with a chaplain attached and riding in a land raider could turn out to be pretty decent.

36 re-rolling normal attacks on the charge and 8 (remember the sergeant comes with a PW as standard) re-rolling power weapon attacks.

Minimum turns till target: deploy 12" forward, move 12" a turn towards nearst enemy avoiding cover as much as possible = around 2 turns if they deploy at 12" and stay still (what are the chances though someone will let a land raider get so close)

**Reecius**

That unit is better and cheaper with assault terminators.

The only way to use them, IMO, is with heroic intervention. Otherwise they are just overcosted marines on foot. Assault Termies are better.

**Thunder555**

In my opinion, vanguard veterans are a gamble. They might hurt your opponents army very badly or they might die horribly and losing you 200-300pts instantly. If you're up for risks, go ahead

Also vanguard vet models look cool. And it doesn't matter if your army wins or loses as long as they look good while doing it.