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Wowzers, lots of input. Thanks for all the replies. Seems to come to a consensus of a unit that could be amazing, if they didn't cost way to much. *sigh* That is what I was afraid of. They do get great assault weapon choices, but are very costly. Termies it is, I suppose. Kudos to the guys that use the to winnning effect. It really is the cost of the jump packs that kill them:(

Thunder555 wrote:It doesn't matter if your army wins or loses as long as they look good while doing it.

Wait, when did we start talking about orks?

Why would orks ever look good?!? I mean, they're the nastiest, most butt ugly race in the world!

Question: More than 1 person in this thread has said that BA Vanguard are better due to only scattering 1D6, but as far as I can se they don't have Descent of Angels, so they stills catter 2d6.
Am I missing something?

waasssdddd wrote:Why would orks ever look good?!? I mean, they're the nastiest, most butt ugly race in the world!

the world?? or the galaxy???? lol

Harrower wrote:Question: More than 1 person in this thread has said that BA Vanguard are better due to only scattering 1D6, but as far as I can se they don't have Descent of Angels, so they stills catter 2d6.
Am I missing something?

You are not. BA Vanguard are MUCH worse, and Danta's special doesn't affect them. Plus, no sound BA player would take them, as a BAAL pred can put out MUCH more kill, and our deep striking assault is a troops choice.

Good, i'm not going mental then
Now if Dante worked with them, they'd be useful. But honestly...they are just awful, worse than Vanilla IMO due to slot conflict with Baals etc as you stated.

Harrower wrote:Good, i'm not going mental then
Now if Dante worked with them, they'd be useful. But honestly...they are just awful, worse than Vanilla IMO due to slot conflict with Baals etc as you stated.

If Dante worked with them, they would be pretty AMAZING! But there would still be the slot conflict for the BAAL....

Kommissar Kel wrote:Lycaeus: 2 points;
1)No heroic Intervention if Shrike is attached(I don't think you meant he should be though)
2)Heroic intervention says no shoot or run, so Fleet is ineffective for them.

With regards point one; no I didn't mean attach Shrike to the unit, merely use him to grant them 'Fleet', and with regards to point two; really?! Thats a major fail...Ah well....

L. Wrex


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Happygrunt and Harrower.

Vanguard Vets in a BA list DO have Descent of Angels (DoA). If you look under the unit selection you have the option to equip them with jump packs. Now, if you look under the Jump Pack entry in the armoury you will see that '...a Blood Angels model with a jump pack has the Descent of Angels special rule (see pg 23).'

Thus, in a BA list, the Vets would only scatter 1D6 and making them only slightly more useful than 'vanilla' Vanguard.

L. Wrex

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Lycaeus: 2 points;
1)No heroic Intervention if Shrike is attached(I don't think you meant he should be though)
2)Heroic intervention says no shoot or run, so Fleet is ineffective for them.

With regards point one; no I didn't mean attach Shrike to the unit, merely use him to grant them 'Fleet', and with regards to point two; really?! Thats a major fail...Ah well....

L. Wrex


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Happygrunt and Harrower.

Vanguard Vets in a BA list DO have Descent of Angels (DoA). If you look under the unit selection you have the option to equip them with jump packs. Now, if you look under the Jump Pack entry in the armoury you will see that '...a Blood Angels model with a jump pack has the Descent of Angels special rule (see pg 23).'

Thus, in a BA list, the Vets would only scatter 1D6 and making them only slightly more useful than 'vanilla' Vanguard.

L. Wrex

Whops! They do. Sorry bout that folks.
But they STILL take a FA slot that a nice BAAL pred would work much better in.

Damn, my bad too, totally missed that under the wargear section. A bit better at least then since as long as yu don't mishap you're highly likely to get the charge in.

I am currently gauging BA VV in my list. Going for 8x TH/SS proxying. We gots lots o nid players in our local area and Baal Preds aren't working as well. I failed utterly first time as I let them get swarmed by gaunts. Talk about embarrassing. Got a game tomorrow and will try again.

I run a 5 man VV unit with JP/LC with a captain with same gear + Artificer armor. The unit runs @480 total (inc captain) 25 attacks on charge, 5 at I5 ws6...

5 LC assault termies run 450 with a base LR. 20 attacks at I4 ws4... a termi Captain or Chaplain adds to that cost.

Nothing preventing you from taking Locator Beacons so that the Vanguard have no chance of scattering at all. Moreover they can engage in Sweeping Advances, which Terminators can't. That means they're better at engaging non-Fearless troops. Additionally they have Grenades, so better at hauling Lightening Claws and regular Power Weapons into combat with enemy in difficult terrain.

In playtesting, vanguard worked very well for me.
I wanted a list with no armor and they slid right in there nicely.

In my application, they are far better than terminators, and they get it done.
The list was good, but not great, so they haven't seen a lot of play recently...

I'm really tempted to run a smallish (5-7?) squad, with a thunder hammer, maybe two power weapons, and jump packs.
The trick with these guys seems to be striking in the backfield, or on a flank, and using a multicharge. Savvy placement of models on arrival would allow you to throw the closest model at whatever he's best at killing (place the hammer closes to a vehicle, and the PWs closest to infantry). Move the closest model to closest model, and then multicharge as needed/desired. You can smack the vehicle with the hammer, and add the hits to the combat res of the infantry fight.

I run them sometimes because I love love love them. And their probably my best painted models.

But yeah, they suck, just not worth the points.

In attempt to make them worth their points...

What if you took two socut biker squads as your other two fast, both with their beacon thing? They could get places quick, and then you'd have two spots where you could heroic intervention with out risk.

Only problem is keeping them alive until your vanguard come in, since reserves happen before movement... you'd have to get the scouts where you want them, survive a whole enemy turn, then roll well.

*shrug*

Charlatan wrote:
What if you took two socut biker squads as your other two fast, both with their beacon thing?

Pretty sure teleport homers only work for teleporting deepstrikers which is pretty much only terminators. So that's a no go for jump pack deepstrikers.

Page 67 of the Sm Codex....

If a unit wishes to arrive via deep strike....

Says nothing about how the deepstrikers arrive. I would guess that include Drop pods as well.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

Charlatan wrote:
What if you took two socut biker squads as your other two fast, both with their beacon thing?

Pretty sure teleport homers only work for teleporting deepstrikers which is pretty much only terminators. So that's a no go for jump pack deepstrikers.

Yeah, shoulda been more clear. Scout squads take a "teleport homer" which works as you say. But scout bikers (and drop pods) can take a "locator beacon" which does the same for any deepstriking unit.

There's an idea... Stick some sterngaurd in a drop pod, give 'em hell, and when they send something mean to kill your stern drop the van in on 'em?

assuming that you make the appropriate Reserve rolls, I can see that.

I currently have a desire for a Deathwatch, all infantry SM force.. running Pedro to have scoring Sternguard and am toying with Vanguard as my FA...

this is interesting, as they are so expensive that my model count will be low.. and if I drop pod the Sterns down, then later on in the game the vanguards might be able to get the multicharge..

Here's how I run mine:

4x VV/jump packs, 4x stormshield, 4x lightning claw, meltabombs
Sergeant/jump pack, stormshield, thunderhammer

It's not all that expensive and they are resilient with those shields. I think the lightning claw costs the same as a power weapon so why not? The meltabombs are great. If you immobilize a tank then your thunderhammer automatically hits. Due to the option for stormshields if you keep the unit at 5 Marines they are affordable for larger games. I have had great success with this unit, especially versus IG & SW.

G

If you deep strike them with drop pods, and lose the jump packs I guess you can have a nasty tactical surprise for your opponent. With a locator beacon to avoid dispersal and power weapons in hand you can have maybe even a 7 man squad for less than a Devastator squad, and certainly less than a command squad:

Vanguard Veteran Squad (7 man) 165
Sergeant: Lightning Claw
Storm Shield 15
x 7 Storm Shields 105
x 1 Thunder Hammer 25

310


More than a normal assault squad, but still....310 isn't bad with Storm Shields giving whole squad inv saves and TH letting them take out high AV.
On charge they get: 2 base attacks, plus 1 attack charging.....

7x 2 + 1x7 = 21 attacks

two of them have reroll to wound. 2 of them with a strength 8 hammer.