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If I run MD Grotsnik with Tankbustas, which special rule takes precidence?
Why?

Wrong forum. This is Fantasy.

Moving to the 40K section...



Meanwhile, there is no clear order of precedence. I would personally go with Grotsnik's rule over-riding Glory Hogs, as it is a rule that specifically applies when he joins the unit...

But your best bet is probably just to roll for it, either as a judgement call when he joins the unit, or roll to see which applies at the start of each turn.

There is no precedence for these things. Neither, really, is more specific (insaniak - it could equally be argued that GH is more specific as it is an inherent rule belonging to the unit)

Regardless of precedence, neither cancels the other so you need to try and satisfy both:

Movement will need to be towards nearest enemy (glory hogs doesn't force movement)
Shooting will need to be at a vehicle (Doc doesn't force shooting)
Assault whatever's assaultable. (will probably have to be the vehicle if there's a choice since you probably shot at it)

There, we've managed not to break either rule!

It's possible you could have a situation where you didn't shoot (allowing you to assault anything) and there's a nearby non-vehicle unit and further away vehicle which are both assaultable. This would be a problem as you would now have a conflict. Fortunately, there is a good Orky solution to this problem - always shoot at something. Then there is no choice in what you assault. If the solution to the problem is dakka then you know it's good!

Scott-S6 wrote:insaniak - it could equally be argued that GH is more specific as it is an inherent rule belonging to the unit)

Except that GH is a rule that always applies to them... Scalpel Short only applies when Grotsnik joins the unit... so is more specific.

But, as I said, not a clear enough distinction to make anything much of it beyond a personal opinion.

Shooting will need to be at a vehicle (Doc doesn't force shooting)

If there is a vehicle in sight, they have to shoot at it... but Scalpel Short requires them to move as quickly as possible towards the nearest enemy unit... so they would have to forgo shooting in order to run... but are required to shoot the vehicle... Rince and repeat.

Assault whatever's assaultable. (will probably have to be the vehicle if there's a choice since you probably shot at it)

That's a problem if they shot a vehicle, as you say. It's also a problem if the nearest unit is not a vehicle, since GH forces them to try to assault the vehicle instead, while Scalpel Short is forcing them to assault the nearest unit.


So multiple problems with trying to apply both rules. It has to be one or the other. They can only work together if there is no vehicle in sight, or if the vehicle is the closest enemy unit.

Just to throw another spanner in the works:

What if theyre embarked?

Does scapel short require you to run? That's a thorny one since terms are poorly defined in 40K. If it does then there is a big problem with combining the two rules as both cannot be satisfied and neither overrides the other...

Hmmm, I don't think there's going to be a RAW answer to this one.

I like your suggestion for a roll-off at the start of the turn to see which one takes precedence. Or the start of each phase?

How about glory hogs if the nearest enemy is a vehicle, scapel short if it's a non-vehicle?

Gregor - the Ork FAQ covers grotsnik in a vehicle.

all grotsniks entry says, is that he must move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy. it does not say he has to run. since the tankbustas have assault weapons, they could feasably, move towards the closest enemy, then shoot at the closest tank, and then assault it if able to do so. if they shot the tank and another unit is closer within assault range, nothing happens since you shot the tank. since neither rule states you HAVE to run, i assume it just means move your full 6" towards the required unit. if there is no vehicle in LOS then they follow grotsniks rules of moving towards and shooting/assaulting the closest unit. (tank or not) so basiclly:
1: closest enemy is vehicle: move towards it at 6" shoot it, then charge if possible (satisfies both rules)
2: closest enemy is non vehicle, but vehicle in LOS, i would probally dice it off (to see if grotsnik can control the urges of his boyz, but in regards to fluff, one could assume the mad dok would have none of his boys disobeyin his orders, and would probally krak em good in the brainpan for said offense.)
3: closest enemy is non vehicle, and no vehicle in LOS, move towards and shoot the non vehicle, then charge. (GH dosent apply, so use grotsniks)

seems to make sense to me anyway.

DarthSpader wrote:all grotsniks entry says, is that he must move as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy. it does not say he has to run.

If he doesn't run, he's not moving as fast as possible...

Does the GH rules specifically prevent them from running in order to not shoot? If it doesn't, that's another option for avoiding a rules clash.

GH doesn't rule on it specifically, but in general when a unit is required to perform a given action, GW have (at least as far as I can remember) pretty consistently ruled in the past that they are not allowed to perform other actions that would prevent them from doing whatever it is that they have to do.

But it does not say he has to run, you may as well say his unit gets to move the full 6" every turn even through difficult terrain as that would be moving as fast as possible.

Could you not just combine the two?

Glory Hogs and Scalpel Short make your unit move as fast as possible towards it's nearest target, shoot the nearest tank and assault it if possible.

You could imply that as Scalpel Short makes the unit attack the nearest enemy, and Glory Hogs makes you attack the nearest tank, Scalpel Short and Glory Hogs makes you follow the rules for Scalpel Short, but applying it to only vehicles, as per Glory Hogs.

S_P

Lorne wrote:But it does not say he has to run,

But it does say he has to move as fast as possible. Running is moving... if he can do so, therefore, he has to.

...you may as well say his unit gets to move the full 6" every turn even through difficult terrain as that would be moving as fast as possible.

The mechanics for running require you to determine the distance the models runs by rolling a D6. The result of the roll is the maximum possible distance for the model to run on that given turn.

That's the answer that fits the current rules. Yes, given a slightly different definition of 'as fast as possible' you could argue that 6" is the greatest 'possible' distance for the model to run... but that leads you down the silly path, where you would also have to argue that it's 'possible' that GW might at some point update the 'Run' rule to allow models to run 24"... so that's the distance he should move, as it's 'as fast as possible'...


It doesn't work like that, though. Yes, 6" is the greatest possible movement when running... but a unit is only permitted to move as much of that 6" as they roll for on the run roll. So on any given turn, the greatest distance they can possibly run is the distance they roll.

Space_Potato wrote:Could you not just combine the two?

Glory Hogs and Scalpel Short make your unit move as fast as possible towards it's nearest target, shoot the nearest tank and assault it if possible.

You could imply that as Scalpel Short makes the unit attack the nearest enemy, and Glory Hogs makes you attack the nearest tank, Scalpel Short and Glory Hogs makes you follow the rules for Scalpel Short, but applying it to only vehicles, as per Glory Hogs.

That would be a doable house rule, but seems needlessly complicated.

That was my compromise suggestion - I like it since it doesn't break or ignore either.

Re scapel short's forcing run - it really comes down to how "move" is defined. Moving in the movement phase? Or all possible movement? I could see both being argued.

Id play it as Grotsnik would over ride GH rule. Simply because hes a special character and higher up on the chain of things, then tankbustas. I know there isnt any ruleing saying thats right but its how I would look at it.

Scott-S6 wrote:Re scapel short's forcing run - it really comes down to how "move" is defined. Moving in the movement phase? Or all possible movement? I could see both being argued.

As far as I can see, since it isn't defined as only applying to any specific type of movement, it would apply to all of it. So if he has the opportunity to move, he must move.

So consolidating he would also have to move as close as possible to the nearest enemy? It is a "movement"

I would think so, yes.

Where's Gwar! when we need him....

S_P

Space_Potato wrote:Where's Gwar! when we need him....

S_P

I am here, but Insaniak answered it fine, so I didn't post.

And Now that I am posting, I feel compelled to point out that Glory Hogs doesn't actually work at all, RaW.

Huzzah!

S_P

Gwar! wrote:

And Now that I am posting, I feel compelled to point out that Glory Hogs doesn't actually work at all, RaW.

Wait, why not?

insaniak wrote:

Lorne wrote:But it does not say he has to run,

But it does say he has to move as fast as possible. Running is moving... if he can do so, therefore, he has to.

I agree with this. The GW FAQ says that his special rule basically affects any transport he's in too. You can get Grotsnik into a transport so long as the transport moves as quickly as possible toward the nearest enemy unit, allows Grotsnik to disembark and assault. With a ruling that specific, I think he would be forced to run over shooting.

If Grotsnik always have to run he can never assault but the turn you declare the Waaagh!
I've never met someone that plays it that way.

For me it's just another of GWs common oversights and only refers to movement in the movement phase. That assaults are mentioned at all supports this.

Webbe wrote:If Grotsnik always have to run he can never assault but the turn you declare the Waaagh!

That would be covered by the requirement to assault if possible.

Although that does raise some issues with needing to determine how close he is to decide whether to run closer or assault that turn...

After every vehicle movement he should also disembark to get the 2 inches and then also run to get the closest to an enemy unit. Luckily transports allow you to ignore most special rules.