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So, its been a year since I rejoined the world of DakkaDakka. And I've made a general observation compared to other non-gaming forums in the way people interact here.

We've all seen threads go from a simple question, to the 'You're a troll!' "No Im not- youre the troll!!" and the "Im right because I choose to nitpick your semantics until I get the last word" and the other varieties of internet chest thumping that get threads here locked.

So, I started poking around and looking at threads on other wargaming forums- and its the same sort of thing.

Now, this has led me to posit- that some wargamers seem to have some belief that they MUST 'win' any debate/conversation. To the point that they will seemingly argue devoid of any logic just for some sense of self validation.

Do you guys think that this is a sort of character trait that has something in common with liking wargaming? Sorta like seeking out conflict?

I know there are other forums that get heated too, notably religion and politics(which are often heated here as well). The topics based on beliefs seem to be some of the most volatile- and lets face it, for many of us the games we choose to play are something we can be very passionate about our beliefs in.

But why does it seem that so often that passion blinds people to applying common sense? When arguing about opinions trying to convince someone they are wrong is often a waste of time- so why not just look at thier opinions as a differing perspective, and from that differing perspective see if theres anything that might benfit you? As a gaming example: I know guys that play 'terrible' armies but play them well- I look at them and take what works for them and try to figure out how I can use it to make my game better.

I will also note- this is not aimed at anyone in particular as its a generalization. If you take personal offense to anything I listed above- stop flattering yourself as you arent important enough to warrant that much attention

These statements are completely false and you are clearily trying to provoke people!!

I keed I keed.

I enjoy a healthy debate, as I'm sure many other dakkites do.

It's those that take it too far and need to get the last word, or need to be right, spoil everything.

I don't think wargamers are more arguementative online, no. I believe the same people that degenerate into troll calling are the same people in real life that can't have
a healthy debate, because the same thing will happen.

Mistress of minis wrote:I will also note- this is not aimed at anyone in particular as its a generalization. If you take personal offense to anything I listed above- stop flattering yourself as you arent important enough to warrant that much attention

YES I AM!

But in all seriousness, It's the internet, it allows you to be somewhat anonymous and allows the worst in people to come out. Even I am a bit more "prickish" as it were on the interwebs in general than IRL, but sadly not by much.

I'd like to hope people that act like they do on Dakka aren't that way irl, wether it be RAW vs RAI or politics or religion or guns.

Though I think there probably are lots of people that get that heated online also get that heated in public. I would like to think the likes of Shuma and Dogma aren't asshats in public places but they sometimes (not all times) come off that way on Dakka. Same goes for MGS. I would GLADLY play anybody I don't get along with on here in a game of 40k (or Fantasy even though it'd be more a demo/tutorial game since I've only read Fantasy batreps and not actually played yet) so long as they don't try to push their opinions on me if discussion were to drift into politics or religion or guns or patriotism. Women and gaming are good things to discuss during games of 40k so I think if I and my opponent stuck to those topics it'd be an enjoyable game, even if against my nemeses here on Dakka.

I act basically the same. If I get it in my head to argue something, I will, and I don't care if your right or if I'm right, I am going to argue (I once carried an arguement with myself.....). Also, as some of you may have seen, some of my posts go something like this:

"Nice guys finish Last, because we make sure our women come first.

Also:

I <3 BOOBIES!"

Is how I really am too. I have more girl friends than guy friends, and I suppose it's because I act like that... I don't know.

I'm actually much more aggressive in real life. A forum about a game of toy soldiers with people I'm never going to see isn't worth my time to get pissed off, though I do occasionally snap here on the off topic forum.

Nearly everybody has a different persona online than in person. For most people, it's a bit harder edged, but not for all. I think the people that know me personally or on other boards can attest that I'm a lot more casual than in my "Polonius" persona.

I don't think it's any more or less likely in wargamers. Everybody on the internet is 100% certain of their opinions (which, by the way, are facts) and is more than willing to paint anybody that disagrees as a troll and/or a idealogue. People like that tend not to have too many friends IRL, as they're simply boring to be around.

Everyone is more aggressive/combative online than in person.

As far as tabletop gamers go, I think that effect is actually more muted. I also play paintball, and the people on those forums are so combative, there's one board I've visited where they basically ban any form of comparison, because people immediately start freaking out at each other.

So, to be clear, this is a paintball forum where you're not allowed to ask "should I get gun x or gun y?"

Since wargaming is competitive it seems reasonable to suppose that it would attract competitive people, who may also be argumentative.

Kilkrazy wrote:Since wargaming is competitive it seems reasonable to suppose that it would attract competitive people, who may also be argumentative.

>implying 40k is competitive
>implying Final Fantasy 7 is the best one because it's the most competitive
>making further implications about my parenthood

I give you one last chance to recant your calumny, sire!

I am an incredibly sarcastic person IRL and that doesn't translate well via the forum, which is why I add a lot of (these) to explain that I am being a 5 year old or joking or sarcastic. MoM I have also noticed in the last few days in particular a general leaning towards "My army is bestes because!" And a lot of arguments. I think I have fanned these flames a few times, while trying to be silly... something I am going to try to avoid in the future.

As someone who is trying to build my online persona closer and closer to myself for the means of advertising, etc TheGrav or Gravity is much closer to myself than my last persona "Skits" was.

further more I would like to wrap it all up with this:

Actually... I do tend to the confrontational, sometimes. Of course I blame my upbringing... My family argues for entertainment value.
And being 3 of 9 can have the effect of making one competitive.

helgrenze wrote:
And being 3 of 9 can have the effect of making one competitive.

You're a Borg? How can we argue with a Collective!?!? Its futile!!!

Mistress of minis wrote:

helgrenze wrote:
And being 3 of 9 can have the effect of making one competitive.

You're a Borg? How can we argue with a Collective!?!? Its futile!!!

What can I say.. I'm a Gamer, Geek and recovering Comedian.... and the third oldest of 9 children, (2 older sisters.. Hand-me-downs were a real bitch...)... Sometimes the jokes just write themselves.

Someone in this thread just did an epic win...

Of course they are! Not just wargamers though, most people. The way folks speak on here NEVER happens in real life. If your in a bar and you give an opinion on something mundane, people never reply with OMG You ignorant fool! Lol! The simple fact is if they did then a good 50% of forum posters would get glassed 3 times a week! :-)

Anonymity works wonders.

sA

I put it down to the fact that many wargamers seem to have an extraordinarily high opinion of their intellect.

Aye ive not seen many people say 'i dont know much about that to be honest' even if i have made an innocuous comment in a subject matter that i happen to know about but i wouldnt expect to be common knowledge. For example i draw alot and i might say something like 'oh Staedler make good colouring pencils...' then somebody will disagree with me by telling me their exact chemical composition and the manufacturing techniques employed to create them. The fact your only two seconds from a google search seems to make people smarmy clever bastards. Think about it, how come no matter the subject everyone seems to be an expert on said subject? It can range from Alpine Skiing to Zulu customs and rituals and you can guarantee the readers of dakkadakka will 'educate' you on the matter. Its rare i see someone say 'feth knows mate!'

mattyrm wrote: Its rare i see someone say 'feth knows mate!'

+1


On most forums that I've been on you get nailed for being a troll if you say something akin to "I dunno". I lost count of how many threads I've looked at and not said anything because I didn't know much about the subject. We speak smarter because we don't say anything if we aren't sure, which in turn allows someone else to be sure of the totally opposite thing, causing friction and arguing amongst the nerds...

Albatross wrote:I put it down to the fact that many wargamers seem to have an extraordinarily high opinion of their intellect.

It bears repeating that stupid people tend to overestimate their intellect since they do not have the cognitive abilities to recognise their lack of ability.

Conversely, intelligent people tend to underestimate their intellect because they are more aware of the things they don't know and they ways they can go wrong.

According to my friends that have read my posts, I am more confrontational (online) but less genial (offline).

It seems that, in person, I'm more the socialite and less the academic.

dogma wrote:It seems that, in person, I'm more the socialite and less the academic.

That's the most productive way to be, if I'm honest.

sA

I think it just depends on each people's personality. I don't use to be competitive in any aspect, the need of having the last word and "set the right interpretation" is somethind really tiring for me. But reading that behaviour in others is still more tiring LOL

Sometimes we try to look for answers to stuff that the designers have not covered, and then it depends on our interpretation of the other things covered and our imagination. And trying to argue about that is soooooo stupid for me. And it is it still more when you know than some of that things are not written in stone (like fluff, for example, GW doesn't matter to change it when they want).

Phryxis wrote:Everyone is more aggressive/combative online than in person.

As far as tabletop gamers go, I think that effect is actually more muted. I also play paintball, and the people on those forums are so combative, there's one board I've visited where they basically ban any form of comparison, because people immediately start freaking out at each other.

So, to be clear, this is a paintball forum where you're not allowed to ask "should I get gun x or gun y?"

Comparison being between paintball and guns? I wasn't clear on what you meant there. If so, I know what you mean about referring to a paintball *marker* and never a gun. That always seemed silly when I was into it as pretty much anything that uses pressure in a closed tube to launch a projectile is by definition a gun. A cardboard tube that shoots paper at low velocity using pressurized gas or pyrotechnics is a gun. I think that paintball enthusiasts are so worried about a negative image that they go out of their way to dissasociate from anything that says or looks like "gun". I think they'd be better off with an internet campaign to advertise the legal consequences of using paintball equipment for vandalism or using an internet shaming campaign for those who are caught doing bad things with the equipment. Warpig was the only paintball site I really went to so that is all I'm basing my opinion off of.

Incidentally, I want to friend you and ask you some questions about p-ball if you're still in to it.

dogma wrote:According to my friends that have read my posts, I am more confrontational (online) but less genial (offline).

It seems that, in person, I'm more the socialite and less the academic.

I think why you get some people's goad is that you come off as pedantic sometimes and because you're *not* confrontational. Emotions are hard to read for me and hard for anyone to read on the internet. You *don't* rise to bait and you don't argue from emotion. My mental image of you is as Chuck Norris in some kind of sensei to a special forces group role that can calmly assassinate a guard then foil the terrorist nuclear bomb plot, then expound on the folly of man and how we all need to find inner peace with diet, exercise, and training. I'm guessing it RL you could defuse a potentially violent situation between two or more arguers, and then kick someone's ass if that failed

Along with the guy that came up with Zorgle and Shuma, you were about my least favorite guy on this board when I first joined for the whole pedantic reason and your calmness while being unwilling to back down. I don't know what changed, I guess because I noticed you would indeed agree with me if you actually did agree with me and that there was never any personal attack involved. Now you're in my top 10 favorite posters on this board.

Another thing with you is that ,as I mentioned in another thread, if you come across as pedantic you can back it up. I've looked up some of the stuff you talk about and most of it I could reference. It ain't bragging if you back it up. I don't know if you read a lot or you just picked this crap up in college. Part of it is that you at some point learned to speak, or at least type in a very eloquent fashion, which is going to rub some people the wrong way, though it may score you points with others. Compare this to a guy like Fraz, who I bet is also a highly intelligent individual but has a very straightforward occasionally lowbrow method of communicating ( perhaps even manufactured occasionally for effect)

To be honest, the way I am on here is a pretty decent representation of how I am in real life. I'm certainly no more aggressive on Dakka, and I haven't said anything on here that I wouldn't say in a face-to-face situation. It's just not something I believe in.

I am slightly more eloquent in real life - I get the feeling that most of my posts are more 'short and to the point'. That's largely because I can't be bothered to post large walls of text.

Grignard wrote: Now you're in my top 10 favorite posters on this board.

sA

dogma wrote:According to my friends that have read my posts, I am more confrontational (online) but less genial (offline).

It seems that, in person, I'm more the socialite and less the academic.

Some people come to the internet to argue, some of us come to debate. I think I'm much the same way.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Albatross wrote:I put it down to the fact that many wargamers seem to have an extraordinarily high opinion of their intellect.

It bears repeating that stupid people tend to overestimate their intellect since they do not have the cognitive abilities to recognise their lack of ability.

Conversely, intelligent people tend to underestimate their intellect because they are more aware of the things they don't know and they ways they can go wrong.

I don't know Kilkrazy, I think that has more to do with personality. I've met people whom I thought were intelligent ( I didn't have an IQ score availible of course) who would be the first to let you know they were the smartest people in the room, and I've met intelligent people who would go out of their way not to appear as a know it all.

The point is still that the smarter you are, the more aware you are that there are way smarter people out there than you, thus making you more likely to underestimate your intellect.

the dumber you are, the less likely you are to either truly notice intelligence, and/or are less likely to be in situations dealing with intellects often.

A person that goes through high school, trade school, and works as a skilled tradesman might be average to just above in intelligence nationally, but could think himself quite the intellect based on his peers and inability to really grasp when he's wrong.

A person that goes to an elite university learns in three weeks that he's surrounded by people both smarter in general, and far more knowledgeable in any given field.