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Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

I dont think me being the one to make the post has affected the responses Id like to think the opportunity for us to realise we dont have to always talk down to, or be rude to eachother to have our voice heard.

I mean, how often do we see people posting their opinions, and insisting thier opinion is the right/best/acceptable one- ergo anything differing from that must be pure crap that could only suck worse if it was featured in a Steven Segal movie directed by Uwe Boll?

Ok- the last part is just my opinion..... but....

How often have we seen a few people arguing those opinions/beliefs, and often they arent very different, but because one guy disagrees with the semantics the other used it turns into a thread locking flame war....of which no one wins? (Now pick on my run on sentence for poor grammar structure!!)

I just hope people can look at it like 'Ok, I think he's wrong- but maybe if I look at it from a different perspective I can see the value in what he's saying'. Even if you still dont agree, trying to see the value in what someone else is saying can do alot to increase the worth of what you decide to say.
   
Made in jp
Enigmatic Sorcerer of Chaos






Yes. Most gamers I've met wouldn't be as quick to drop the gloves in real life than on the internet. The only other sites I visit where the readership are quicker to lunge at one another's e-throats are newspaper comments.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

As I said previously, I learned to argue/debate for mostly entertainment value. For me, it is a mental exercise. It forces one to engage there mind and think through the subject. I think I can debate either side of an issue, with proper information, successfully.

On the subject of intelligence and higher learning, I see no correlation between the two. This coming from the perspective of anecdotal evidence. A friend of mine has several degrees and works as a chemist...... And until 2 years ago did not know how to cook a simple dish of Oatmeal (I taught her).

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Kamloops, BC

helgrenze wrote:As I said previously, I learned to argue/debate for mostly entertainment value. For me, it is a mental exercise. It forces one to engage there mind and think through the subject. I think I can debate either side of an issue, with proper information, successfully.

On the subject of intelligence and higher learning, I see no correlation between the two. This coming from the perspective of anecdotal evidence. A friend of mine has several degrees and works as a chemist...... And until 2 years ago did not know how to cook a simple dish of Oatmeal (I taught her).


QFT.
   
Made in us
Ruthless Rafkin






Glen Burnie, MD

Cheesecat wrote:
helgrenze wrote:On the subject of intelligence and higher learning, I see no correlation between the two. This coming from the perspective of anecdotal evidence. A friend of mine has several degrees and works as a chemist...... And until 2 years ago did not know how to cook a simple dish of Oatmeal (I taught her).


QFT.


This is anecdotal evidence, which is interesting and illuminating, but ultimately useless in a real debate. Could it have also been more that she wanted you to show her, than any actual ineptitude on her part? Or simply that she doesn't value cooking as a skill (not all of us do)?

True, there are people who are idiots who come through higher education. But the majority of people who complete higher education have shown that at least they have the intellectual rigor to put up with various department's bs. Which is an order of bs that most people have never seen. Give them that at least.

People can also be too intelligent for college, like Bill Gates, but these are rare exceptions. Even if college doesn't improve intelligence, it does at least allow for the greater expansion of one's mind, and exposure to subjects of their interest in a relatively safe environment.




-Loki- wrote:
40k is about slamming two slegdehammers together and hoping the other breaks first. Malifaux is about fighting with scalpels trying to hit select areas and hoping you connect more. 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

I think part of the issue with anonymity isn't just that they feel they have less to lose by arguing, but that they also feel they have more to lose by not doing so. In the real world a person has a lot of things making up their identity; their family, their job, their friends, their religion, and so forth. On the internet you don't have much besides your posts. I suspect this leads people to be more willing to defend the posts they make online than the things they say in real life, and that's where a lot of the stubbornness comes from.

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in us
Savage Minotaur




Chicago



Edit: There is a message in the above image.

Everyone on here can be whoever they want, even a black jedi. They can be as prickish as they want, and you know what you can do about it? Nothing.

Taking the internet seriously, especially a wargaming forum, home to fat, sweaty nerds and normal wargamers alike, is like saying 9/11 and the Holocaust never happened.

Spoiler:
They did

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/09 23:10:12


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

But both were actually done by the Jews, of course.

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in ca
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos






Grim Forgotten Nihilist Forest.

I'm not a fat sweaty wargamer. D:

I've sold so many armies. :(
Aeldari 3kpts
Slaves to Darkness.3k
Word Bearers 2500k
Daemons of Chaos

 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Orkeosaurus wrote:I think part of the issue with anonymity isn't just that they feel they have less to lose by arguing, but that they also feel they have more to lose by not doing so. In the real world a person has a lot of things making up their identity; their family, their job, their friends, their religion, and so forth. On the internet you don't have much besides your posts. I suspect this leads people to be more willing to defend the posts they make online than the things they say in real life, and that's where a lot of the stubbornness comes from.


Yeah, that's basically what I was trying to say, but you said it much better.


In the real world, people might start up the argument over whether people with higher learning are smarter, and it might start much like this one has. But it's almost certain* that it would peter out fairly quickly, and people would agree that while intelligence is correlated with higher learning it isn't a strict correlation, there are still plenty of clever people with basic education, and plenty of stupid people with tertiary educations.




*Almost certain, a couple of friends of mine almost came to blows arguing if domesticated cats were a different species to feral cats. They were 12 at the time, but still...

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





San Diego

Responsibilities (off-line) I think change your approach to telling someone they are wrong. I come from a long background in Management and I owned/operated my own business for the last 4 years (Lost it due to the Econ crash, still do it as side work.. but its not the same.. ) so it is easy for my to tell someone outright when I think they are wrong. In fact I am having a issue being the low man on the totem pole at Starbucks because of this.

However online I have a tendency to really research something if I am not sure if it is right or wrong. I think the ease of having this tool at my fingertips helps to focus me, and almost force me to concentrate on thinking before I type. I am not above making the stupid call online I am sure I do it all the time, but I think online as I have so much access I definitely think and research just a bit more before I respond.

To echo a few of the above posts on all they have said, I agree that this thread seems to have stimulated good interaction and intelligent discourse, and when I know I am right and can prove it.. I tell it.

There is no art more beautiful or diverse than the art of Death.
3000 pts Word Bearers
3500 pts Tanith 1st & Only
UC
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

helgrenze wrote:
On the subject of intelligence and higher learning, I see no correlation between the two. This coming from the perspective of anecdotal evidence. A friend of mine has several degrees and works as a chemist...... And until 2 years ago did not know how to cook a simple dish of Oatmeal (I taught her).


Knowledge and intelligence are different things.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

dogma wrote:
Knowledge and intelligence are different things.


Very true.

Which is why its amusing to see people basically parroting things in order to provide a veneer of intelligence. Then they rabidly defend their statement- often without knowing why- just so they dont have to be 'wrong'.
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Is it too late to throw in that there's different kinds of intelligence, if we consider intelligence as goal-oriented?

Moreover isn't it reasonable to consider how the skills available for achieving success in one sort of task generalize to other 'skill-sets'?

Some who is good at, say, hockey, may have more transferable skills for football than polo, for example.

Likewise sports are full of coaches who never performed at the top level, and those who performed at the top level being lousy coaches (I'm looking at you, Gretzky). Some lousy actors are decent painters, though I'm not familiar with paints that have become famous for their acting.

Despite both wargames and internet forums being essentially a co-operative activity, I kind of doubt that that there's many transferable skills between them besides sportsmanship.
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





San Diego

I think that a tactically minded person is more apt to explore an issue, discover and define their point of view and defend it. Tactics being what the game is all about, sure I think Tactical thinking is a valuable skill-set that is transferable to the internet.

However I would define a skill-set as being something a wise person has, regardless of intelligence, book smarts or higher education. Take an auto-manic, generally seen as an lower educated position, however he can take a car apart, slap it back together and it works once again. Not only that but he is so skilled in his skill-set he can convince us that we owe a lot of money for those skills. You can have a PHD in Physics and have no clue how to fix a car.


There is no art more beautiful or diverse than the art of Death.
3000 pts Word Bearers
3500 pts Tanith 1st & Only
UC
 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

I dont see this as so much of a topic about actual intelligence though. We all seem to agree that there are different and subjective ways to judge/measure it.

Which sort of comes full circle on the original topic.

If there are so many type of intelligence, why do the arguments here always seem to take on the same format? Is it just a matter of a paper/scissors/rock sort of situation, where some of the thread locking clashes are just basically rock vs rock, or scissors vs scissors, ego duels where no one really wins?
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Omadon's Realm

Intelligence and passion are also different.

I'm have a reasonable level of smarts, but I also am just naturally firey about things I believe in.



 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

Mistress of minis wrote:I dont see this as so much of a topic about actual intelligence though. We all seem to agree that there are different and subjective ways to judge/measure it.

Which sort of comes full circle on the original topic.

If there are so many type of intelligence, why do the arguments here always seem to take on the same format? Is it just a matter of a paper/scissors/rock sort of situation, where some of the thread locking clashes are just basically rock vs rock, or scissors vs scissors, ego duels where no one really wins?


Somewhat. Its debate, each side taking an opposing view of the issue and trying to prove their view point. Online forums however lack the third party judges that would give victory to one side or other. Plus with wargamers there is the subconscious idea of "taking turns", going back and forth. There is an eventual point where the discussion starts falling apart as the opposite sides start repeating themselves and the dialog becomes pendantic.
At that point, you will most likely see more personal attacks, as well as the automatic gain say of the opposing point. Everybody wants to win and some will just keep going to see if another backs down or quits.

That is why having the Mods able to lock threads that have run too long or just out of steam is a good thing.

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





San Diego

Just because the MODs can sweep in doesn't remove your responsibility to remove yourself from a topic though. I have unsubscribed to plenty of topics when it is obvious that what they were talking about has degraded into a flame war between two or more people, in which case my input is just getting it the way and flames get on me too. It is at this point that I think threads can degenerate even faster, with people building sides, and arguing in groups about one thing or another. As a poster, it is my responsibility to just back away and let them hash it out.

It keeps my sanity, and the MODs don't have to worry so much about more noise/info ratio. If those of us that see it degrading do this more often, and a thread becomes two people arguing, maybe a lesson will be learned in time.

I think wargaming attracts a certain type of passionate player though. It seems to me that those of us with more than one army, as myself with Chaos, DE, Eldar, IG, and Tau are a bit better at not picking a side and staying objective in a conversation. However people how seem to play and brag about only one army are self proclaimed "experts" and have a tendency to be rude and outright attack each other. Best example I can come up with is the endless fluff posts about how the SoB are mistreated and the SM are fan-boy porn, I have seen it a bunch in just the few weeks I have been on Dakka.

At the end of the day, to me, it doesn't matter a lick, I have 4 armies to choose from and plan to add at least 3 more with the final plan of having one of everything even if it is just a kill team, this is my hobby. I like all the fiction, it is brain candy, and gives me all this cool fluff to look at and play with. Basically I take 40k as a full package and don't get all caught up on my DE or my Chaos and argue until I am blue in the face that my fluff is better because....it isn't!!! It all the same game!

It seems that a lot of us in this thread all seem to think the same way too.

Just thoughts, sorry about the wall!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/11 17:50:21


There is no art more beautiful or diverse than the art of Death.
3000 pts Word Bearers
3500 pts Tanith 1st & Only
UC
 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

Yep- when I was thinking about making this thread- I was curious to see which way it went. Whether it would be nice rational dialog like it has been, or a bunch of incoherent accusations and nerd rage.

Im happy its went a pleasant direction. But I sort of wonder if thats because some that might post in a more aggressive fashion, are deliberately trying to disprove that theyre like that.

Helgrenze brings up a good point about forum posts taking a sort of turn based format too- and Im sure we've all seen the 'he who posts the most or the biggest thinks they win' sort of threads.

I think what some people dont stop and realize, is that at the end of the day we dont all have to agree. And that just because someone has different thoughts on a topic doesnt make them wrong. Sure, in a numbers based game there are always things that may or may not be more statistically efficient- but those numbers dont always translate into fun or success as thats a human quality.

Its just sort of bothersome when some inflated ego thinks their opinion is worth so much that its the only one that is 'right' .
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





San Diego

MoM: I think another factor is that a lot of those that argue heavy are absent in this thread so far. Of course, that is just in my limited experience on Dakka to date, and I am truly a newbie here still, no matter how much I have ghosted in the past.

I am thankful that so far politics has somehow manged to stay out of Dakka threads I have been in. (Except for Fluff Empire Politics anyway...)

I have also been impressed by the intelligent debates we seem to have come across in this thread. This topic in plenty of other forums I have been part of would have been a shouting match in minutes.

There is no art more beautiful or diverse than the art of Death.
3000 pts Word Bearers
3500 pts Tanith 1st & Only
UC
 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

thegrav wrote:

I have also been impressed by the intelligent debates we seem to have come across in this thread. This topic in plenty of other forums I have been part of would have been a shouting match in minutes.


Hehehe, maybe all the argumentative types are staying silent just to prove me wrong and that they arent more confrontational/argumentative? I was kinda hoping to hear from some of them though, sometimes talking in a calmer thread, you can get some perspective on people. Knowing where people are coming from can add alot of context to what they are saying.
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions





San Diego

Hehe Possibly. I am acting much the same as I always try to. Even when I am outright insulted, as has happened on Dakka before, I just tend to move on and ignore it.

There is no art more beautiful or diverse than the art of Death.
3000 pts Word Bearers
3500 pts Tanith 1st & Only
UC
 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

thegrav wrote:Hehe Possibly. I am acting much the same as I always try to. Even when I am outright insulted, as has happened on Dakka before, I just tend to move on and ignore it.


POSSIBLY!?!?!?!?!!! HOWDARE YOU DISAGREE

Ok, had to just throw in a random bit of incoherent contrariness. But ya, I think the conversations would be more pleasant if people would just be themselves, rather than the constant one-upsmanship that seems to be the norm.


   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

Be myself?!?! How dare you....

Nah, I'm actually kinda boring.... Always talking about gaming and politics and such,
Or Football, Now there's a subject with some seriously rabid opinions.

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Especially now that the Big 12 is in danger of dissolving.

...Or did you mean soccer?

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon






OKC, Oklahoma

Dogma.... Pro OTA's are over, College is gearing up, and the World Cup has started....

Does it really matter which definition of 'Football' we use?

Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!

Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."

:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)

"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Burtucky, Michigan

Albatross wrote:I put it down to the fact that many wargamers seem to have an extraordinarily high opinion of their intellect.



Oh man I agree with this many times over. And then once more over again. My oldest brother can be like that to a sickening degree. Im not saying he isnt smart, because he is incredibly smart, but that just fans the flames. I mean when hes wrong, its just the end of the world, and you can prove he was wrong.

Example, the cover saves a KFF gives, 5+ to troops, 4+ to vehicles. He argued to the ends of the Earth I was wrong and in 4th edition this and your wrong that. Even still, Ive showed him the actual whitedwarf where Phill Kelly used the EXACT rules I stated, and even showed him the whats changing in 5th edition card, STILL, he swears its a stupid rule and everyone is wrong. EVEN the guy that wrote the damn codex apparently


But uh yea, smart people are idiots me thinks
   
Made in au
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter






Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)

Albatross wrote:I put it down to the fact that many people seem to have an extraordinarily high opinion of their intellect.


There we go. To be honest I really see little to suggest that wargammers are any more confrontational online than any other sub-group that may dwell in the depths of the internet, anonymity is anonimous . That said, IRL you don't need to go far to see Wargamers coming to blows at tourneys over rules. Most other folks need alcohol in some form or other before they get into it.

Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.

"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

A bit of a tangent, but definitely worth the watch, for nothing but the funny thought.




 
   
 
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