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I am currently playing a footslogging Blood Angels player and I have decided to try and see what I can do to counter his mobility. So far, he's taken Astorath and Corbulo and seems to favor Terminators. He takes at two full assault marine squads and rarely fields Death Company. He doesn't use vehicles because he only has a dreadnought and a Ba'al pred, and those have gotten popped turn 1 whenever he has played a game, so he definately won't be fielding them and probably won't proxy the pred as a Landraider. I've come up with a footslogging list primarily because I don't have any skimmer vehicle proxies besides deffkoptas and a single large one which I plan to use as the piranhas and a devlilfish in the list.

Shas'O - 127
Plasma Rifle
Fusion Blaster
Positional Relay
Hardwired Multitracker

2 Shas'vre Bodyguards - 164
Plasma Rifle
Fusion Blaster
Targeting Array
Hardwired Multitracker

Commander Shadowsun - 175

4 Units of 12 Firewarriors - 528
Photon Grenades

2 Units of 3 Piranhas - 310
Fusion Blaster
Targeting Array
Disruption Pod
1 Seeker Missile each

8 Pathfinders - 111
Shas'ui
Bonding Knife

Devilfish - 145
Smart Missile System
Target Lock
Multitracker
Disruption Pods
Targeting Array
2 Seeker Missiles

2 Crisis Battlesuits - 124
Plasma Rifle
Fusion Blaster
Multitracker

2 Crisis Battlesuits - 124
Plasma Rifle
Fusion Blaster
Multitracker

3 Crisis Battlesuits - 186
Plasma Rifle
Fusion Blaster
Multitracker

I was thinking of running it as a gunline where the infatry squads are layered and in between them are the crisis suits and the commander. Using the positional relay, I can more or less control how the pathfinders arrive and I can also keep one unit of piranhas in reserve while the other deposits drones either right in front of the enemy or on the objective. I was thinking that would be a good way to keep the enemy from getting points as long as I avoid multiple assaults. The pathfinders can outflank in their devilfish and then start reducing increasing ballistic skill. The basic idea is that his marines will clash with my gunline, and then when the first row of firewarriors are down the suits jump behind the marines, shoot, and then the all 36 remaining firewarriors shoot, and then the suits jump back into the formation with some minor shifting next turn to stop the marines from getting through the layer of firewarriors. The Blood Angels player is pretty aggressive, so I was thinking that I could let him bring the fight to me and allow to advance at no penalty to firepower due to the closenes of his units after they destroy each layer. The plan is to slowly advance onto the objective this way. Terminators can be dealt with by mass fusion blaster fire and detaching a suit squad and then lighting the termies up with markerlights for extra effects. Any suggestions and criticisims are welcome.

I'd say drop the positional relay. Pathfinders work well positioned behind the bulk of your army just popping markerlights onto the enemy. First turn without markerlights hurts, you out range him and should punish him for it.

Also the tau player I most face never uses a Shas'O. Instead he takes a Shas'El with PR, FB, Targeting array. Works out at 97 points and only disadvantage is -1 W, Ld, A and WS. The last 2 shouldn't be a worry as he is not needed in combat and the wound is replaced when he joins another squad of battlesuits.

Shadowsun is also pretty hit and miss. I would rather take another couple of battlesuits or even some broadsides.

Kroot would work well to make a speed bump, or counter-attack, for Terminators. Get enough attacks against them and you kill them before they get a chance to fight back.

Here's my revised army list based on omgnowaiii's advice. Any comments and criticisms are welcome, and thank you, omgnowaiii.

Shas'el w/ 2 Bodyguards - 261
Plasma Rifle
Missile Pod
Targeting Array
Hardwired Multitracker

3 Crisis Battlesuits - 186
Plasma Rifle
Missile Pod
Multitracker

3 Crisis Battlesuits - 186
Plasma Rifle
Missile Pod
Multitracker

3 Crisis Battlesuits - 186
Plasma Rifle
Missile Pod
Multitracker

8 Pathfinders - 111
Shas'ui
Bonding Knife

12 Firewarriors - 135
Shas'ui
Bonding Knife

Devilfish - 145
Smart Missile System
Target Lock
Multitracker
Disruption Pods
Targeting Array
2 Seeker Missiles

20 Kroot - 312
12 Kroot Hounds

4 Piranhas - 300
Fusion Blaster
Targeting Array
Disruption Pod

I haven't mush idea what to do with the remaining points. Any further suggestions are welcome.

I'd say put the relay back in. Versatlity in deployment is an advantage that should not be dismissed out of hand.
If he is on foot then the mobility of dropping suits in his backfield can be a real asset.

Your way low on Troops. You need at least four strong units at this point level.

Any reason for not running any heavy supports?

list looks good where its at, but since you already have a kroot bubblewrap try to fit in some broadsides somehow? it looks like you've got anti infantry covered with the suits kroot and firewarriors.

Split the kroot into two units though.

Right now, my opponent doesn't really have anything that Broadsides would be point efficient against. He sometimes fields Mephiston, but taking a few broadsides for such an event is sort of overkill. The plan is that the piranhas should be able to kill whatever armor there is by either going flatout on the first turn and then hitting vital points on the second or being held in reserves so that they can still flatout and probably contest an objective with their shield drones next turn. The fusion blasters should be enough to deal with mephiston, and also are quite good at killing assault marines and terminators at a faster pace than railguns. The sniper drones sounded interesting, but since he's playing Blood Angels rather aggressively its quite likely that he'd get an assault squad on them. It would distract him from assaulting the gunline, which isn't as good as him assaulting it because after each successful assault he's left vulnerable. Still, I can see flaws in this strategy like if he takes a few turns to stand back with the terminators and shoot a little bit. Those cyclone missile launchers are nasty against suits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Taking four strong troops could work out points wise if I use the devilfish as a light tank and use two full firewarrior squads and two full kroot squads. The problem is that the kroot can get expensive in higher numbers especially if I take the hounds, which are the part of the unit that is good in close combat. The kroot are supposed to be shooting him if they can, but whatever casualties are taken in their squads are probably going to be put on the kroot as the hounds are a fair amount more useful in assault. Still, losing the piranhas is something I'm considering. Would it be a bad idea to try and base a list off of Piranhas if I reduced the number of battlesuits?

Seeing as this is going to be a list tailored to match a regular opponent then I have a few ideas for you.

1)Sniper drone team in the Heavy Supports

2)Keep the Piranhas (And Load each one with a Seeker Missile )

3)Points look off on your kroot unless you are running the Shaper and the Armor save. If this is the case, you can keep the shaper but dump the armour save.

4)Kroot units of 14-ish kroot(including shaper) and 6 hounds each will come in at about 155 points for each squad. If you want a mob you can always deploy them supporting each other so that you can double charge if necessary

5) About your basing off of Piranhas, It has been done but with a list like yours you might find that your single squad of four more effective. BTW, Use their drones to Screen the Sniper drones in a JSJ doors opening and closing move that leaves clear paths during the shooting phase but blocked from assault after they assault move back in front of the Sniper Drones.


Mind you, These are just ideas. Take waht works and discard the rest. Hope this helps and happy angel hunting.

Thanks for all the advice. Also, Focus Fire was right about the points being off on the kroot, they should be at about 212 for a full squad of carnivores and hounds. Here's what my list looks like so far with all of the input.

Shas'O - 127
Plasma Rifle
Fusion Blaster
Positional Relay
Hardwired Multitracker

2 Shas'vre Bodyguards - 164
Plasma Rifle
Fusion Blaster
Targeting Array
Hardwired Multitracker

3 Crisis Battlesuits - 186
Plasma Rifle
Fusion Blaster
Multitracker

3 Crisis Battlesuits - 186
Plasma Rifle
Fusion Blaster
Multitracker

12 Firewarriors - 135
Shas'ui
Bonding Knife

12 Firewarriors - 135
Shas'ui
Bonding Knife

14 Kroot - 162
Shaper
6 Kroot Hounds

14 Kroot - 162
Shaper
6 Kroot Hounds

4 Piranhas - 340
Fusion Blaster
Targeting Array
Disruption Pod
Seeker Missile (one each)

8 Pathfinders - 111
Shas'ui
Bonding Knife

Devilfish - 145
Smart Missile System
Target Lock
Multitracker
Disruption Pods
Targeting Array
2 Seeker Missiles

7 Gun Drones - 84

2 Sniper Drone Teams - 160

This all should come out to about 1997. Thanks for all of the advice and any further comments are still welcome.

@Markinglight- Two things:

1)Are you counting the shaper as a 15th model or as an upgrade to one on the 14 Kroot? If he is an upgrade then you are 7 points over and if you are counting him as a 15th kroot then you are 21 points shy on the squad. Don't want you getting into trouble for points being off.

2)For your two teams of FW and some mobility for them, are you familiar with the Leap Frog/Hopscotch technique?

This is a trick that allows you to increase the movement of two infantry squads with one devilfish. If you don't know about this I just posted it in my Tau 5th ed Survival and Tactics thread part II.

Other than the small pointing issue the list looks like it will be fun in your coming foot-slogger match against your friends BA's.

Thanks for all of the advice both in list building and Tau tactics. Focus Fire, I actually factored the Kroot in first and then added the Shaper at the full 28 points, then added the Kroot hounds, so no worries there. I'm about to check out this interesting technique you mentioned and I hope that it will be useful in my coming game. Thank you once again.

Personal bias, nix the gun drones
against BA (whom i also regularly play against, though mine are 90% infantry with one dread and a drop pod) gun drones independantly are next to worthless
better idea is to save two points per model, and give your pathfinders some extra wounds (and to increase both the numbe of models necessary for the 25% casualty test and how many die before being below 50% strength) or spend the points on armor for kroot or for more kroot or something similar
on their own, gun drones have crossed the line on too expensive, and do nothing to heavily armored BA since theyll get assaulted the nest turn and die faster than orks vs the legendary "Leafblower"
independant gun drones are for nailing masters of ordinance or those other pesky single wound low save models that love to stay in your opponants backfield (i find command squads are tantilizing victims)
against heavily armored high T fast moving space marines they're woefully underpowered since those 7 shots will hit/wound/kill (according to the mathhammer) .864 models per turn of shooting...which theyll only get one of because anything with a jump pack moves and then assaults for a total of 18"
so personally i think they'd be better used as spare wounds for your important squads or as points spent on more models or upgrades for your squishy troops

@dbsamurai- The Gundrones are there to help screen the Sniper drone teams.

Aren't sniper drone teams equipped with stealth field generators? In any case I'd assume you would deploy them separately and have them deeply entrenched in cover, and kroot seem to work well as screens anyways.

So I agree, ditch the drones, at least as an independent unit, and assign them to pathfinder teams, and your more valuable suits.

Even the humble gun drone has a use when blocking crisis suits from lascannon fire.

@Captain Klaw-Ditch a sacrificial 96 point screen for a more expensive sacrificial 155 point scoring screen? Doesn't matter that the kroot can score because they gonna die when being used as a screen. This frees them up for objectives and assaulting weaked basic troop units. Not a slam but maybe you could think something through onstead of dismissing it out of hand.

If he decides he needs drones for some of his units, "Why not suggest cutting 2 FW from each team, a pathfinder, and a kroot + hound from each squad?" Add those points to the 3 left from the original total + the 14 extra he already has from the kroot being off and you have 95 spare points.

I know 5th ed has been here for a bit but Drones still make superior screening units for the Rail Rifles. This is because they can get out of the way during shooting so you don't give your opponent a coversave. Tau have it tough enough without helping your opponent by giving unnecessary saves.

As to deploying the Sniper Drones seperately, My experience has been when put in a line my opponents often misplace the marker for their blast weapons to where only part of each unit is hit.

MarkingLight wrote:Devilfish - Smart Missile System, Target Lock
Multitracker, Disruption Pods, Targeting Array, 2 Seeker Missiles

One minor thing not covered yet: Why have a Target Lock on the Warfish? Anything the SMS is hitting is likely to be hit by the BC too, so you could save a couple points, and be sure to focus the 7 dice on one target. I have yet to see a situation where I'd *want* to divide the BC's fire from the SMS.

focusedfire wrote:
I kbow 5th ed has been here for a bit but Drones still make superior screening units for the Rail Rifles. This is because they can get out of the way during shooting so you don't give your opponent a coversave. Tau have it tough enough without helping your opponent.

I thought allied units never granted enemy forces cover saves? the idea being that they wait until their comrades are out of the way before fireing...
also, in response to your use of the drones as a screen
whilst effective yes, the fact that sniper drones (which dont benefit from the sniper rules...grumble grumble) have stealth generators means that they already have a level of screen, and their bonus 6" range over standard FW means you can stick them in cover in the backfield
you're basicly paying points for cover if you use gun drones like you're suggesting, when 10 times out of 10 you will be able to decide where the cover is before the game starts, so you wont have to worry about not having it, since you decide where it's placed, and where the objectives are placed
in short, while providing a redundant cover save for already well defended unit, they're unnecessary, as you can only use one save per shot, and normal cover provides the same 4+ save
instead, what i was suggesting is make your sacrificial lambs (kroot) last a little longer under pressure, as they will be moving to assists, as opposed to sniper drones which have to sit still to fire (and firing is what they should be doing)
or use them to provide extra (sacrificial) wounds to your pathfinders (which COME with AT MINIMUM four spare slots in their devilfish for drones) thus allowing them to soak up casualties without weakening their role as markerlight users
Unrelated tangent tho,
Can sniper drone teams mount up in a devilfish? since they're drones and a FW...

dbsamurai wrote:
I thought allied units never granted enemy forces cover saves? the idea being that they wait until their comrades are out of the way before fireing...

This is 5th edition. Shoot throughany unit grants a cover save to your opponent.

dbsamurai wrote:
also, in response to your use of the drones as a screen
whilst effective yes, the fact that sniper drones (which dont benefit from the sniper rules...grumble grumble) have stealth generators means that they already have a level of screen, and their bonus 6" range over standard FW means you can stick them in cover in the backfield
you're basicly paying points for cover if you use gun drones like you're suggesting, when 10 times out of 10 you will be able to decide where the cover is before the game starts, so you wont have to worry about not having it, since you decide where it's placed, and where the objectives are placed

The purpose of the screen is to slow assaulters for a turn not to grant coversaves. A sqadron of drones is cheaper and doesn't tie up a scoring unit.

dbsamurai wrote:
Can sniper drone teams mount up in a devilfish? since they're drones and a FW...

Currently yes, they can climb in on first turn if they wish. Problem is that with current disemakation rules you would now lose two turns of shooting. Basically, there is no real tactical advantage gained in doing so.

BTW, Could you Space your posts out a bit more? Makes replying to your posts easier.

Later

Lol sure focusfire, sorry it's a habit from IMing too much to just hit enter after every thought

Ah, i see your point now yes that is much more effective...tho you could really do that with even 4 drones (the minimum squad size) and just hop them in the way before an enemy charges...plus he's already got like, two squads of bubble wrap, so I still think it's kinda pushing the envelope on costliness

The reason i ask about mounting snipers is for the same reason as your drones, if an enemy gets too close, mount them up and run like a bat outta hell. Cause then you've got a model you've already payed the points for that can do two things for you, and the loss of a turn (or two) of shooting is worth it if it means your squishy snipers can avoid getting assaulted (since they're outnumbered squad wise by even a combat squad of marines...how pathetic is that? grumble grumble...)

god the tau codex pisses me off...

I was just doing some points checking and was wondering whether dropping the sniper drones and then giving all of the crisis teams shas'vres with bonding knives and shield drones would be a good idea since they'll at best be getting cover saves against enemy shooting and then will probably have to back away when he gets through the kroot and firewarriors. With the points saved from the sniper drones and drone squad, I was thinking that I could also upgrade the kroot squads to 20 kroot. I was wondering whether the sniper drones with upped ballistic skill from their own markerlights and upped ballistic skil from the pathfinders would be more valuable than upping the resilience of the rest of my army. Any comments on this are appreciated.

2-3 Questions before I reply:

How many 3+ sv BA's are on foot and how many Termies on foot?

Are the termies 3++ or 5++ save?

Are you using plasma and VoF on the Termies while reserving the AP 3 on the standard non-inv save maries?

To be honest I've always found the bonding knife to be important in suit squads because of their low model count and lack of ATSKNF which means once they're done, they're done, so those 5 extra points are worth it if it means you can get that 75+ point model back shooting
I don't have enough experience playing Sniper Teams (namely due to the fact that I don't own any) but my limited experience suggests that
Your already expensive things should always be buffed (Hammies, Crisis suits, Broadsides, etc) while your squishier, cheaper, stuff should be the quantified (FW, Kroot with LOTS of kroothounds, Piranhas, Devilfish, Stealth Teams, Pathfinders, etc) That way the easy to kill stuff, when it dies, is replacable, and the less easily replaced stuff is harder to kill

However I think Focusedfire can almost definately give you better advice in regards to the Sniper Teams and the Crisis suits

He's probably going to be running either lightning claw assault terminators or some regular terminators with assault cannons/typhoon missile launchers. I think he'll take at least two squads, or one squad and then combat squad it. The rest will be assault marines. I have doubts that he'll bring mephiston because he just played a few games with him and found him to be close to useless, at least in his opinion. The plan I have in my head right now is to use the suits to shoot up the assault marines as they take down the firewarriors. Then again, the kroot will probably be counter charging them and then lengthening the assault so they are a little out of place now. The best I would be doing with would probably be terminator hunting in order to keep him from messing up my guys too much before he assaults them. Maybe I could cut down on the suits and then get more kroot/piranhas? Would this be a good idea in light of this change?

@MarkingLight-About the piranhas. I have to ask, "Do you think that taking them will violate the friendly foot unit theme that the two of you have been using?"

If your not going to run Broadsides then try loading your Elites with Plas Fusion and use those on the Termies with the 2+ 5++ saves

Use the Sniper Drones on the standard 3+ save Marines.

Use the Seeker missiles on the standard 3+ save marines if their are no transports to shoot. Make sure that they have no cover. If a unit is tagged ny four markers then use two to drop cover and the other two to laungh a "single" salvo ot "2" seekers.

Against the 2+ 3++ Terminators use massed fire warrior shots.


Now in the game, plan on moving. To do this, focus your fire upon one section to create a space to retreat into. You want to turn the game into a long edge battle as opposed to firing across the short edges. This will give you the room to maneuver.

To bad you don't use broadsides.....Hmmm, You got a Farsight model?

Also, Have you been playing him and if so have you been improving?

Will get back to you after you answer some of these questions.

Yea your infantry is gonna get chewed up by those Typhoons, so i would suggest more piranhas, Or, actually with the list you have now, use THEM as the screen rather than the suits
Termies are next to friggin impossible to kill (grrrrr so frustrating) so Yea I like the idea of more plasma rifles than god

When he's running so few vehicles I would nix the seekers on your vehicles (as they are 10 points for something which will only effectively kill his assault marines) and that'll give you more points to play with. Also, it means you have more markerlights on those termies to use for other purposes, like buffing your FW's BS so more shot hit and dropping cover saves against AP2 weapons (even if it's only to 5+ cover, which means usually you're only giving up one marker hit)

Your helios Crisis suits are something of a trade off for me, since for one St less you can get one more shot at three times the range...but it's not AP1. I guess if he's running ten (ten? really he's running 400 points plus upgrades? <:O) then all that ap2/1 Firepower is effective, but personally I like fireknife for the number of high Str shots it puts out, i guess it's up to your tastes, but I just think Fireknife would make a more well rounded squad able to deal with Termies and assault marines
(clarification, assault marines are comparitively squishy and more numerous to termies, so you want High str but numerous shots to counter their larger numbers) at least mathematicly it makes sense to me...

With his Typhoon Termies, you'll be going up against fast rush with heavy artillery, so I would suggest keeping your infantry in as much cover as you can (that typhoon hurts out in the open...or so I've found) and use your crisis teams to outflank and nail those artillery termies, and (thanks to how many you've got) as heavy turrets against that 12-18" rush every turn (also what i could see snipers being used for) combine that with your kroot and FW in cover and then just let him come to you. If he falls for it (and if you can nix his termies before they slaughter you) then you should be able to easily counter his rush. (did so myself in a smaller point game against 100% BA rush)

And you can outflank his assault termies with your piranhas, and if you move them fast enough you can also use them as an anticharge shield, sticking them between the termies and your lines

Like farsight, but as I said sumwhere else, I don't like the bodyguard's coherency rules, as it's waaaaay to hard to find them cover especially when they present tempting targets in such large numbers. However here i think that may be less of an issue (since none of his weapons that you've mentioned are AP3...unless he has melta's in his Assault squads or sumthin...) and they might even hold their own in combat with their WS3 T4 S5...if their ten point/model price hike doesn't send you into hock...

As far as a friendly foot army theme goes, the reason why we are playing with almost no vehicles is that we just don't have enough proxies for them. I also play orks, and the Blood Angel's player has played with land speeders in a previous game against me and I have used deffkoptas against him. We are really more constrained by out lack of vehicle proxies instead of just not playing with vehicles, so using the Piranhas is quite likely to be acceptable. I was looking at Farsight for a while, but the chance of such a large unit being assaulted could be problematic especially since the lack of supporting firepower due to the restrictions he puts on the army. The lack of Kroot would also be problematic for dealing with him once he gets close to the Firewarriors. I have been playing him and one game we switched around with him playing Orks and me playing Blood Angels. It was a failure almost as bad for the both of us as Kauruva was for the Blood Ravens. I had a Captain on a bike with a Thunderhammer and melta bombs who failed to put a single pen or glance on a Trukk, and then my friend lost his single unit of twelve lootas to the four flamers and two hand flamers I put on the two filled out assault squads I brought. He also used two shokk attack guns, and one of them rolled double twos so I got to choose the target but first had to roll for strength, and then rolled double ones, destroying it. Then he assaulted my Stormraven with Killa Kans, which then popped it. Then my dread get up into assault with his Trukk, and only managed to score an immobilized. It was still objectives, and I had gotten a single with my assault squads and managed to fry his trukk boys with the frag cannon and heavy flamer in the next turn. Still was some bad rolling for all of us and a lot of tactical failures.