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Hi party people,

I have a 1500 Ultramarine list that I made with the help of a veteran friend. It's won me my first singles match, which was super neato (I made a BatRep on it HERE.) The list is now at a 1Win, 1Draw, 0Lose status right now, but even with things looking promising I'd like as much input as possible. So here it is:

HQ - Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike
+Fast - 10x Assault Squad w/ Meltabomb

Troop - 10x Tac Squad w/ Meltagun & MultiMelta
+Transport - Rhino

Troop - 10x Tac Squad w/ Meltagun & MultiMelta
+Transport - Rhino

Troop - 10x Tac Squad w/ MeltaBomb, Meltagun & Heavy Bolter
+Transport - Rhino

Elite - 7x Sternguard Vet Squad
+Transport - Rhino

Heavy - 10x Dev Squad* w/ 4x Missile Launchers
+Transport - Rhino
*Split into Combat Squads: 2 Missiles and Sergeant on foot, 2 Missiles in Rhino


One idea that's been floating around my head is replacing Shrike with Pedro Kantor; putting him with the Sternguard and giving the Assault Marines captain a PW and put another Meltabomb somewhere to hit exactly 1500 points again. Benefits would be turning the Sternguard into a 4th scoring unit and providing the whole army with Stubborn. The bad parts would be losing Shrike's Infiltrate and Initiative and thus making the Assault Marines more of a reactive melee force (having them assault something that's already assaulted one of my Tac squads or something) as I'm typically fighting another Space Marine army these days. Losing Fleet for the whole army would be a downer, but not a huge loss for the way this shooty army seems to work.

One thing I'm really enjoying (though it's a huge disadvantage in Annihilation) is having so many Rhinos. In both of my games Rhino-walls have been a great asset to slowing down or completely stopping my opponent.

Any and all thoughts, ideas and yelling is appreciated! Thanks in advance!

Any advice from the pros would be choice.

Is bumping allowed? This is a good way to find out! =D

Do you have more models than this or are you just looking for very minor changes?

Also, stubborn is generally not a benefit for a SM army. HB in tac squads are a waste, there is nothing they do that a ML wont do better 9 times out of 10.

I do have more models than this, at least 1 of everything for the most part. Minor changes, major changes, doesn't really matter.

The reason for the HB is lack of models, I suppose. All 4 of my Missile Launcher fellows are in the Dev squad. And I only have 2 MMs (I might have a 3rd unbuilt now that I think of it ) which are in the other Tac squads. I also have 2 LCs and a PC, but I've read the PC isn't what it used to be.

As far as Stubborn goes, it was my understanding that any unit who's average or below average at melee benefits from it. If you could elaborate why a Tac squad wouldn't.

Thanks for the feedback!

--EDIT--

P.S.
I hope me being your 666th post isn't an omen. =P

Id switch Shrike to Vulcan personally, makeing all your melta weapons TL would be a major boon to a melta heavy list like this IMO.

I can never bring myself to seriously consider Devastators, they are way over priced IMO. With the amount of meltas that you have in this list I dont think you need any more anti high AV units, I'd go instead with a couple of shooty dreads with either an AC/AC or AC/PC load out. Or field 2 or 3 Predators with an AC and HB sponsons. This is just from my experiance though.

While stubborn is good or even great in some squads such as an IG blob its not the case with SMs.
Since you cant be swept you want to be able to get out of a loosing combat asap.
For instance if any squad of yours would to end up in combat with a dread they would slowly but surely be eaten and there wouldnt be much you could do about it. (sans a the lucky roll of 6 with the MB). With combat tactics you could instead leave combat after the first turn and the unit which charged you would be open to fire. In the case of a dread it would run a high risk of eating a melta shot to the face ect.

IF you decide to go with Pedro then drop one tactical squad and take atleast two sternguard squads otherwise he is not worth it. TH/SS termies also greatly benefit from his +1A aura. But that would require you to remake your list completly (more or less)

As for the list then, neither assault marines nor devastators are good units. Sternguard should be equiped with combi weapons in order to maximize thier effiiciency.
Multi meltas on tacticals are so so, they can be good for area denial but dont expect them to kill anything really. My advice would be to drop the devs and put the MLs in the tac squads.
I would also consider changing some rhinos into razorbacks if you decide to put MLs into your tactical squads.

You will never go wrong with ACLC predators, they are much better than Devs.

MM/HF speeders are a much better delivery system for MMs so you might wanna consider them.

I'm embarrassed to admit I'm constantly forgetting I can't get swept... Thank goodness for my friends who don't commonly let me kill myself off. I see why Stubborn isn't a good choice.. Thanks for clearing that up.

As for the Armor Value replacements for the Dev Squad; I've considered these ideas in the past. But in my mind it's having 10 wounds and 1 Armor Value (Rhino) or just 1 Armor Value (Dread or Pred.) Granted, I'm paying more than twice the point cost, so I see the cons. But also being able to combat squad or not (for annihilation) and choosing to reduce my numbers (down to 5 in a rhino with 2 MLs) give me the versatility I love (probably the same reason I bring tons of MLs.)

I'll toy some with these ideas. Tossing out the HB in the Tac squad. Removing the Dev for 2 Preds and a WW (I don't have a 3rd Pred model.) And see if I can work in Vulkan in Shrike's place and make it work (probably tossing a PW to the Assault Marine sergeant.)

Any more suggestions: Fire away!

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Whirlwinds are overrated, not much good can come from it. Except for the armor value a thunderfire cannon is a better artilarry peice.

Thunderfire?Really? Armour 10, any glance kills it?

Didnt you read the part that says "Except for the armor value" I thought that was pretty explanitory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With a Whirlwind you get 19.6" of coverage

With a Thunderfire Cannon you get 28.26" of coverage

LOL

Well, I don't have a Thunderfire Cannon. Never liked the 1 wound vehicle idea.

Okay, no whirlwinds, got it. =P

So here's my update. I took the collected advice that Assault Marines are poop and took them out. Replaced them with a Captain with Artificer Armor, TH/SS and a Command Squad with Power Weapons and PPs. I also removed the Dev and threw in a LR Redeemer (something I've always avoided as the templates on opposite sides seemed VERY situational.) I also took the advice of MLs in Tac Squads rather than HBs and MMs. Also took the advice of adding some Combi-Meltaguns to the Stern (also put them on Tac Sergeants.)

In short, I tried to combine all suggestions into 1 and try it out:
* Take out Assault Marines
* Take out HBs and MM for Tac, replace w/ ML
* Take out Dev
* Add Combi-Meltagun to Sternguard
* NO Whirlwinds! =P

I forgot to bring my list with me this morning, so here's roughly what my list looked like:

HQ - Captain w/ Artificer Armor, TH/SS
+Retinue - Command Squad w/ Power Weapons/PPs
+Heavy - LR Redeemer

Elite - 5x Sternguard Vet Squad w/ 5x Combi-Meltagun
+Transport - Rhino

Troop - 10x Tac w/ Meltagun & ML (+Serg w/ Combi-Meltagun)
+Transport - Rhino

Troop - 10x Tac w/ Meltagun & ML (+Serg w/ Combi-Meltagun)
+Transport - Rhino

Troop - 10x Tac w/ Meltagun & ML (+Serg w/ Combi-Meltagun)
+Transport - Rhino


My last game I tried this list out. I played Chaos Daemons in Spearhead/Annihilation and won, 7 to 2:

The LRR is something I'm not letting go of after that game. An AP3 template is just too fun, even if I'm not always getting to use both (I giggle at wounding multiple DPs with a template weapon.) If the 3rd weapon was a TL-HB, I might not be too fond of it, but the TL-AssC is a fantastic addition to a S6 murder machine.

As far as trying out the Captain and his retinue, they pretty much got ripped to shreds. Only the captain and 1 of his retinue survived a round of CC with a named Demon I can't remember the name of. After that fiasco, they SM backed out, got back in the LRR and hid like ninnies.

Other than that, most everything else went off quite well. The MLs and Meltaguns and Combi-Meltaguns being shot from the Rhinos worked out very well. I found the Combi's on the Sergeants gives the Rhino fantastic mobility without sacrificing 2 powerful hits due to not being able to shoot the ML.

I must say I didn't feel as comfy with only having 5 vehicles on the board instead of 6. The Daemons were SUPER-melee with almost no shooting which gave me a steep advantage as far as my vehicle survival went when I adapted to this quickly. Either way, I should probably test this against a more generic army and give the Captain/Retinue another go. But I'd LOVE more advice on this new list!

**********************************

While concerned with having less vehicles, I dabbled more with generic HQs. I found I could replace the Captain/Retinue with a Termi-Chaplain w/ Combi-MG and 5 Assault Termies (2 w/ TH/SS and 3 w/ LCs), keep the LR Redeamer and have exactly enough points left over for a AC/HB Pred. So if I could get feedback on this. I'm thinking the Chaplain and SS Termies can soak up Invuln save wounds and Insta-kill low toughness enemies while the LC Termies will get rerolls to hit from the Chaplain and rerolls to wound from the LCs. So, if you guys/gals can hit me with what you think of this as well I'd much appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!

Your list seems to be lacking some when it comes to crowd control.
TH is not the best choice on a captain, take a relic blade instead. "Only" str 6 but hits at int 5.

As you noticed yourself, command squads are bad when tooled up for CC, either go with 4 plasma guns or leave them at home. If you want a CC unit on foot ALWAYS go with Assault Termies (5TH&SS or 4TH&SS+1LC imo)

Termie chaplin is never a good choice, you are always better of with Cassius. Cheaper and better. That said I would probably go with a Librarian instead.

Do you combat squad regulary? If so Id consider razorbacks instead of the rhinos.

You might wanna try 2 tactical squads as well. Use the saved pts for stuff that actually cause damage.

Thanks for the quick reply, tedurur!

I see what you mean about I5, a serious advantage in a codex of 4s.. Relic blade sounds good.

I would like more Termies, but if I'm wanting them to fit in a LR I can't have too many, and I don't like foot slogging.. =\

I like Cassius a lot, but my problem with him is the same problem I have with Tigurius; no Invuln save.. It seems like if I'm in melee I'm either fighting a MC or high Init power weapons these days. But I'll look into him a bit more as I'm very fond of his T6.

I've considered Razorbacks. But again, I very much hate foot slogging with my SMs.. Personal taste I suppose. I'm also fond of being able to pop everyone out of a rhino and lighting up an enemy in close range, and in the next turn jumping back in and taking off as I please. Again, personal taste I guess.

The reason for 3 Tacs is the way 5th edition is. 2/3 times I'm going to want scoring units. But if I end up trying out combat squads more, I'll look into replacing one of them with a Dread or something.

Thanks so much for the response!

Hmm, I never suggested more than 5 termies so they would fit just fine in a LR

If you dont combat squad then I can see why youd want 3 squads and rhinos instead of RBs

Cassius has a +4 inv save just like all other chaplins

Ha, you're right. I read your response as 5TH&SS and 4TH&SS+1LC for some reason... I'm tired...

Rosarius... Right... Did I mention I'm tired? Cassius sounds like a good deal, then.

Much thanks, again!

Okay, third try was a loss, but a very close loss against CSMs which have always been the toughest enemy for me. Here was my list this time:

HQ - Chaplain Cassius
+Elite - 5x Assault Termies (4 w/ SS/TH, 1 w/ Claws)
+Heavy - LR Redeemer w/ MM

Elite - 5x Sternguard Vet Squad w/ 4x Combi-Meltagun
+Transport - Rhino

Heavy - Predator w/ HBs

Troop - 10x Tac w/ Meltagun & ML (+Serg w/ Combi-Meltagun)
+Transport - Rhino

Troop - 10x Tac w/ Meltagun & ML (+Serg w/ Combi-Meltagun)
+Transport - Rhino

Troop - 10x Tac w/ Meltagun & ML (+Serg w/ Combi-Meltagun)
+Transport - Rhino

Overall it went well. The game was annihilation, the worst type for my army(with all of the Rhinos for the killin' .) But it was close, 6 turns with a final score of SM:4 to CSM:5. Rolls were horrible on both sides of the game. And I made some mistakes, but anything I'm doing incorrectly I can fix with time/experience. The army itself is what I'm mainly concerned with, and I think it's a fantastic setup so far. The LRR and 1 Missile from a Tac took out my opponent's Daemon Prince on turn 1, so that was neato.

The Termies and Cassius didn't get to do much, but this was mostly my fault as I misjudged distance and forgot some very basic rules. I'm a serious fan of 1 pair of Claws in the Termies. Getting those rerolls to hit/wound with the Chaplain is lovely, and clear out some of the enemies before the THs get in to do their thang.

The only thing I'm thinking about is the Predator, I'm just not a fan. This game it was only putting out the Autocannon shots and as I predicted the HBs were quite a waste, not firing at all. The second half of the game the Pred spent its time stunned or shaken and then weapon destroyed, it just didn't pull its weight. I assumed this would be the case with a lone Pred, but I'm not sure what else to do with 85 points. I could take off the MM on the LR Redeemer bringing me to 95 spare points, but that's still not much to work with in a SM army.

Suggestions?

P.S.
Thanks to everyone for the help so far, getting me to this point!

I'm a big fan of autocannon turret/LC sponson predators, they are definitely worth the point cost, and might work better against MEQ's.

Okay, well, I'll just say it. How dare you disgrace the ultramarines with that raven guard filth? How is it an ultra list without an ultramarine HQ?

EDIT: Read the other lists. Okay.

My instant question is why pay 195 points for Shrike and then build what is essentially a gun line? How will the devastators benefit from fleet? Or the tac squads?

If you take Shrike most of your troops should be scouts armed for CC. Assault Terminators in a LR support Shrike and his inflitrators and build a list to get at the enemy on turn 1 enmasse using Shrikes special rule.

Likewise if you're taking Pedro you need tonnes of Sternguard. 2 squads absolute minimum.

The only thing this list seems to spam is Melta and flamers. Hence Vulkan seems the best fit swapping the Assault marines for Hammernators and keepng them with Vulkan in reserve as a counter charge unit and go full gunline.

Give all the sternguard combis and drop a model to do so. They'll then fit in a razorback which would be an added boon to them.

I'd suggest dropping the Devastators for 2 AC/LC Preds, more survivable, more fire power and better mobility...

I agree, Flingit. But I've posted a lot of updates since the original list further down the thread. I've used Cassius/LR/Termies and a Pred, they did okay, but I've already written about that above, so I won't babble on on something twice.

As for recently, I haven't gotten to play much, but this is the next variation I'm going to try out based on suggestions and what I personally enjoy:
(I don't have the list with me, but I'm pretty sure I've remembered everything correctly)


HQ - Captain w/ Relic Blade and SS
+Retinue - CS all w/ Plasmaguns
+Transport - Rhino

Troop - 10x Tac Squad w/ Meltagun & LasCannon (Serg w/ Combi-Melta)
+Transport - Rhino

Troop - 10x Tac Squad w/ Meltagun & LasCannon (Serg w/ Combi-Melta)
+Transport - Rhino

Troop - 10x Tac Squad w/ Meltagun & PlasmaCannon (Serg w/ Combi-Melta)
+Transport - Rhino

Elite - 5x Sternguard Vet Squad w/ 5x Combi-Melta
+Transport - Rhino

Heavy - 10x Dev Squad* w/ 4x Missile Launchers
+Transport - Rhino
*Split into Combat Squads: 2 Missiles and Sergeant on foot, 2 Missiles in Rhino


I do miss the Dev with Missiles and their ability to single shot or blast template. I like to be able to do any job at any time, jack of all trades (which is why I love my smurfs.) Especially after 1 shotting the Skull-taker with an instant-death shot to the face before he got a chance to melee me. They've even won me a game. So I'm going to bring them back again.

I'm normally not comfy with bringing Plasma, even with a 3+ Armor Save. But with FNP from the Apothecary I figure it's going to be tough to kill myself, so I loaded up on them in the CS. I brought a PlasmaCannon in the Tac because I don't have 3 LasCannons, so it was either that or a Multimelta and I have a lot of melta already. I've seen PCs do some great stuff so I'll just roll with it and see how it goes.

I'll post an update after trying it out.

As always, thanks to everyone for the advice/criticism.

Especially after 1 shotting the Skull-taker with an instant-death shot to the face before he got a chance to melee me.

Skulltaker is an Eternal Warrior (as everything in the Daemon Codex is) so not sure how you one shotted him?

That list looks pretty good. I still think a Couple of AC/LC Preds would do more for you than the Dev squad particularly if you swapped some of those Meltas for flamers to aid with Horde control. THat should save you enough points to make the lascannon tac sqwuads Rhinos into Razorbacks (further increasing your horde control).

You're right on Skulltaker, maybe I'm thinking of someone in the Space Wolves codex. It was someone beastly in melee I was scared of... lol

I hear Preds a lot. Like a lot a lot.. I just don't think they're my style. But, if I start running into problems with Dev I'll try them out again, scouts honor =P

All right, took a while to update as it's been busy times the last few weeks.

This week I used my latest list in a teams game, though I replaced the Plasma Cannon with a Multi-melta. It was myself and a tank-heavy IG list vs Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons. Seize Ground with 5 points and DoW deployment. Things were going pretty well for both sides, but by turn 4 the enemy team had 4 of the 5 points held. The game went to turn 6, thankfully which gave me enough time to move all my Rhinos forward to contest points and we ended up tying 1 to 1 thanks to my IG partner's strategic blast templates of doom!

Highlights:
Once again the Dev Squad proved their worth and then some. Half of them took out a troop choice of CC Daemons, the other half a Daemon special char and both put some wounds into multiple Princes. Though some of this was due to good rolling, I have yet to have the Dev Squad not eliminate more than their point value in enemy units and/or not provide strategic placement to win a game. Everyone and their grandmother seems to hate Dev, but I can't let them go.

I'm cursed with Lascannons. As usual, I didn't get one wound or glancing/penetrating hit the entire game thanks to the luck of the dice (partially why I don't typically like bringing Preds.) I think next time I'll take a troop with a Plasma Cannon, a troop with a Lascannon and a troop with a Multi-melta. As variety seems to help me greatly in my games.

Speaking of the Multi-melta, it managed to take out a Defiler (or w/e the name of that Daemon walker thingy is) in one hit after backing out of close combat with some Oblits and failing the Initiative roll-off by 1. =D

The Plasmagun CS w/ the Captain was fantastic. No one died and more importantly no one died to their own Plasma thanks to FNP!

Overall I think I'll stick with this basic structure for my list. It seems solid enough to be competitive with my friend's list to where I'm not always losing. The only thing I could think to change would be some sort of Deep Strike or fast-moving survivability unit to contest points in the back quickly or take out a pesky hiding unit that I can't reach. But I don't want to get rid of another tank, so I'll sit pretty until it becomes a constant issue.

Thanks to everyone for the advice on getting my list to this point! I call this a success!

When marines work they work very very well.

Can't see anything wrong with your list!

Only thing i could think of would be to change last tac squad to a flamer and have it as anti-infantry

I could definitely use some extra anti-infantry. But in my gaming group I'm typically fighting shooty armies with lots of tanks.

lots of tanks?

so a lot of AV 13 then....

I'd consider dropping the 10 man Dev squad and taking a dakka predator or more troops. Target saturation is the key against tanks!

I suppose I mean vehicles, not tanks specifically.

You're about the 1,329th person to tell me to replace Dev with a Pred or 2, but I just can't do it. I've tried Preds, but I just have the worst luck for rolling to shoot with Autocannons(and Las if I bring it) and I've never been a fan of someone being able to get 4 out of the 6 results on the damage table and have my autocannon be useless.. The Dev either split up or everyone in a Rhino is nay impossible to take out with 1 hit, and the missile launchers give me anit-infantry as well as anti-tank/high-toughness.

Like I said, if the Devs start becoming a problem for me, a couple of Preds will be my first choice to try out as a solution seeing as the word is unanimous with them. But so far they've been nothing but a saving grace.

I was like you Sinaura. I swore by Devastators and wouldn't hear anything wrong by them.

THen a vindicator came along with some sniper scouts and I lost them all in one shooting turn.

As a small 5 man squad with 4 missile launchers you can't complain, except if they're not in cover you'll lose them very quickly.

If you start adding bodybags they quickly go over 230 points.

Don't think Missile Launchers are great anti-tank!
Str 8 means against any proper tank (AV 13) or ultra tank (AV 14) you need a 5+ to GLANCE against 13 and a 6 to GLANCE against 14!
That's not good. And if you're taking them for pure anti-infantry you're much better off taking 4 HBs or Plasma Cannons.

And if you take a Devastator squad properly kitted out for anti-tank (lascannons) even a 5 man squad will cost you 230 points!

For 10 points more you can take TWO Predators with autocannons AND lascannon sponsons.

but if you're set on Devastators good luck with them.

I fully understand the risks and I lose them almost every game, but they have always ended up killing more points than themselves(or in one case, half of them contested a point to win the game) is why I'm so set on them. I also split them up into my corners typically, meaning one or both of the groups can hit side armour most of the time. And sadly, I'm fighting SMs or CSMs a lot of the time, so popping Rhinos is something that I have to keep in mind all the time and MLs do a great job of that for such a cheap cost.

Thanks for the input, much appreciated!