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New to beastmen. Like the bestigor models. Worthess last addition (or near worthless). Look a little more tempting now, but I want to know how people feel about them before I go spend money on a unit.

Out of all the beatmen's specials there the only one that can really rank up. They also have heavy armour and a great weapon ... not to mention they can take a magic banner (i like the war-banner) combine that with their love of other peoples banners (see 'despoiler') they're fairly hard to break without terror.

Yes you could go for some of the other specials but only Bestigor are cheap enough to take casualties, with out it being too much of an issue.

Under 7th ed rules, the Bestigors are heavy infantry which can not hold their own against the heavy infantry of any other army book. 1 attack, striking last (for the most part) with only a 5+ save and low leadership (7?) makes for a bad combo.

They might have some hope under the new 8th ed rules if they can always strike back and fight in 2 ranks.

Well with primal fury they can reroll hits. so 6 wide is 7 attacks. Plus i would put a wargor with them. I played a game last night and realized i had no heavy infantry at all, unless you count minotaurs...

as of last edition they were only useful if you gave them mark of khorn for a second attack... you can achieve something similar with a gorebull/doombull... otherwise nay...

Neigh!


Too expensive for what they do (like most elite infantry) and the great weapons will really, really hamper them.

Why do great weapons hamper them? Lots of elite infantry (IE Executioners, Greatswordsmen, Swordmasters, etc.) have greatweapons. Why more so bestigors?

I voted yay simply because you said you liked them.

If you like them, you'll figure out a way to make them work. I promise.

Ragnar4 wrote:I voted yay simply because you said you liked them.

If you like them, you'll figure out a way to make them work. I promise.

I was set to vote no, as bestigors really are pretty poor compared to about all other heavy infantry (comparing them with executioners is revealing, especially if you note that nobody runs executioners!) as well as the other beast specials, but I agree with Ragnar. If you like the models / unit and want to use it, do it and figure out ways to make them work. Bestigors certainly aren't an autopilot unit though

For the record, what blows my mind most about bestigors is that they receive no Ld bonus at all over gors, neither LD8 or a reroll or a buff when accompanied by wargor / beastlord or anything. People say bestigors are overcosted and I agree, but the issue is more that all beast infantry is overcosted, particularly when compared to their WoC counterparts (gors / ungors -> marauders, bestigors -> warriors) who are better.

- Salvage

Sorry I don't have my book in front of me...but don't bestigors have primal fury?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I concede the point. Bestigors are not as good as their heavy infantree counterparts by doing a side-by-side comparison. What, in that case, do you use to take a charge if you need to. For instance, if youre playing brettonia whose warhorses move hella fast. Harpies wont hold them and everything else is too slow to get a charge off.

boomkapow! wrote:Sorry I don't have my book in front of me...but don't bestigors have primal fury?

yes they do; they also have despoiler which lets them add +1 CR for each banner they've won.

Do i use them? yes
Do they win against heavy infantry? Yes
How? I'm not a moron, I charge them into the flank.
Do they win on kills? No normally i win through CR bonuses ... ranks + banner + war banner + other peoples banners

Yeah.

They're pretty good when you have your Beastlord and BSB in the unit, providing a good center unit for your army of Gors.

Though, I'm running a bit of a fluffy list, they always have done me good when I have used them (the little I have)

So would it be better to put a beastlord/wargor in the unit to keep their primal fury, or a doombull/gorebull to replace it with uber frenzy. I was thinking about going BSB-Gorebull with steel claws and either gnarled hide or many limbed fiend.

boomkapow! wrote:So would it be better to put a beastlord/wargor in the unit to keep their primal fury, or a doombull/gorebull to replace it with uber frenzy. I was thinking about going BSB-Gorebull with steel claws and either gnarled hide or many limbed fiend.

take blackened plate 4+ ward save against flaming attacks for the whole unit (2+ for the character) just 20pts. Shadow-gave is also good but much more pricey.

25 more points, not that bad for the tons more use you'll get out of it if your facing a shooting heavy army.

The chance of flaming attacks isn't worth the 20 points when you can get the Pelt for only 25 more points.

Don't forget its -1 to regular missile attacks, and then -2 to magic missiles.

Though, if you have your Beastlord AND Wargor in there, you could take the pelt on the wargor, and then Stonecrusher Mace, Ramhorn Helm/Gnarled Hide, and then Blackened Plate, and of course a shield.

This is my build for my Bestigors.

L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Ramhorn Helm, Gnarled Hide, Shield = 249 (General)

H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Pelt of the Shadowgave, Shield, Great Weapon = 161

And then I put them into:

S: 16 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 247 (Beastlord & BSB) (6x3)

In 7th they are just not worth the points. They cost to much to use them for combat res, they are to slow to get the charge, they are to weak to survive to get a hit in, and they just dont hit hard enough to beat up slower heavy armored guys.

In 8th they always get their swings and get twice the swings in. They become very good. With a minataur char (with restrained frenzy) they become awesome with 15 GW attacks + the mino's attacks across a 6 man frontage WITH rerolls to hit most of the time.

Personally, I don't like them because they do not fit into my overall strategy. I usually take 2 units of minotaurs and 2 units of harpies, so there is no room for bestigors in a 2000pts list.

Also most of my core choices are large blocks of Gors so I have lots of places to hide my Beastlord/Wargors and don't need the elite block to put them in.

Turalon wrote:Personally, I don't like them because they do not fit into my overall strategy. I usually take 2 units of minotaurs and 2 units of harpies, so there is no room for bestigors in a 2000pts list.

Also most of my core choices are large blocks of Gors so I have lots of places to hide my Beastlord/Wargors and don't need the elite block to put them in.

I always wince a little bit when someone openly admidts that they develped a strategy that doesn't include at least one of every unit from the army book unless they are physically unable to due to list restrictions.

Perhaps I'm a bit of a stickler, but if the unit exists in the army, they've got to have a role.

I'm certain what you do works for you...

Not sure I follow Ragnar. Many (most? all?) armies couldn't include one of each unit in the book. Dwarfs for example, have 7 special choices that spring to mind. So even if I don't double down on anything, I'm still having to leave 3 behind. And those will be the 3 least suited to my overall strategy.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're getting at?

Tri wrote:Do they win against heavy infantry? Yes
How? I'm not a moron, I charge them into the flank.

What mediocre / overcosted (US5+) unit doesn't win if it gets to charge in the flank? I remember somebody suggesting the same thing about how shaggoths are totally workable when you charge things in the flank ...

But good on you for using bestigors. I read a report on Herdstone about a dude who runs 2 units, very stylish

Tri wrote:take blackened plate 4+ ward save against flaming attacks for the whole unit (2+ for the character) just 20pts. Shadow-gave is also good but much more pricey.

Can't the bestigor champ take items / gifts? You should be able to slap the plate on him if they're running characterless, or to open some space on heroes.

cypher wrote:In 8th they always get their swings and get twice the swings in. They become very good. With a minataur char (with restrained frenzy) they become awesome with 15 GW attacks + the mino's attacks across a 6 man frontage WITH rerolls to hit most of the time.

Remember that slaughterer's call replaces primal fury ... But yea, it will be interesting to see what 8th brings for besties (and great weapon troops in general).

- Salvage

I WISH the bestigor champ could take magic items, Salvage, just like Black Guard, but sadly, its only Gifts that they can take, which honestly, is worthless.

I really am looking forward to running 3 units of 18-24 Bestigors (the last unit is for a unit of 5-7 harpies) But with 8th, I may be able to just get my 25% core out of the way, and then as many units of Bestigors as I want and a unit of harpies. That would be pretty B.A

Ragnar4 wrote:

Turalon wrote:Personally, I don't like them because they do not fit into my overall strategy. I usually take 2 units of minotaurs and 2 units of harpies, so there is no room for bestigors in a 2000pts list.

Also most of my core choices are large blocks of Gors so I have lots of places to hide my Beastlord/Wargors and don't need the elite block to put them in.

I always wince a little bit when someone openly admidts that they develped a strategy that doesn't include at least one of every unit from the army book unless they are physically unable to due to list restrictions.

Perhaps I'm a bit of a stickler, but if the unit exists in the army, they've got to have a role.

I'm certain what you do works for you...

I agree with Red_Zeke, your claim doen't make sense to me. Perhaps you could give some clarification.

I was trying to say that I usually run two units of Minotaurs and two units of Harpies, so I don't have enough special slots for the Bestigors.

Also if we are going to start talking about the effectiveness of Bestigors then we should also compare them to the other special choices for Beastmen. There are Harpies, Minotaurs, Centigors, Razorgors and Razorgor chariots which are all special units. It seems to me that in a 2000pts game (at least) two special choices will always be left out of one's list. When taking style of play into account, this number could also increase.

So I don't see what the problem is with leaving some units out as I cannot field all of them all the time.

Boss Salvage in my opinion no beastman unit can win head on with a similar unit in another army (excluding copy and paste entries like harpies, giants and war-hounds). We don't have the armour or Leadership.

If you want to win, then you come at enemy from all sides ... bestigor add (in my builds anyway) a unit that adds at least six to the combat result (In most cases i can also out number, and get a charge on the rear or flank).

As for the gift of chaos you can give the gouge horn ... well only upgrade worth taking is Gnarled hide. I really do think these gifts suck, slug skins the only one i take. AND DON@T GET ME STARTED ON THE WAST OF SPACE THAT IS THE PRIMEVAL CLUB ...100pts for something that uses the enemy's LD for a strength value .... OK most things are LD6+ but really the Lords start at strength 5. I really hate this books magic and gifts.

Tri wrote:Boss Salvage in my opinion no beastman unit can win head on with a similar unit in another army (excluding copy and paste entries like harpies, giants and war-hounds). We don't have the armour or Leadership.

If you want to win, then you come at enemy from all sides ... bestigor add (in my builds anyway) a unit that adds at least six to the combat result (In most cases i can also out number, and get a charge on the rear or flank).

As for the gift of chaos you can give the gouge horn ... well only upgrade worth taking is Gnarled hide. I really do think these gifts suck, slug skins the only one i take. AND DON@T GET ME STARTED ON THE WAST OF SPACE THAT IS THE PRIMEVAL CLUB ...100pts for something that uses the enemy's LD for a strength value .... OK most things are LD6+ but really the Lords start at strength 5. I really hate this books magic and gifts.

I saw the one other beastmen player at my store howling about how good the primeval club was...until he fought a unit of zombies that were LD2. Ahahaha.

No, giving the Gouge-Horn a gift is a waste. The gnarled hide should be on a Lord/Hero of yours, so that's not even an option. All the others are a waste of point for a champion.

Ehh, Tri, I think bestigors could do it. 30 Bestigors arranged 6x5 (or 6x4, if 24 bestigors) along with full command could be pretty damn good. 6 S6 attacks, along with 5 base SCR (most likely, depends if we get outnumber)

I think we can just say that it depends on your play style. If you like minotaurs, then take them. If you like bestigors, take them. They move at relatively the same speed, and both pack a big punch. Minotaurs HAVE to kill a lot of their opponents, so might not do so well against Phoenix Guard and such. But Bestigors can go into a unit and already pull behind them 5 SCR, and they should get 1-2 kills with 6 S6 attacks.

Just a thought: How are Bestigors being called overcosted? A gor with is 7 points. And you would never not give them AHW, so we can basically put their base cost at 8 PPM. For +1 Strength, a Great weapon, and heavy armour, and the despoilers rule, AND being able to carry a magic banner.

They lose Beastman Ambush, and the option to go AHW or a shield.

How is all that not worth 4 more PPM?

I'd only use bestigors in 2000 and above point battles. They are a fun unit though.

Here's the problem I have. The Armies I play against are bretonian, high elves, dark elves, wood elves, empire.

Out of these armies, empire are the only ones I can get the charge on. So what I am looking for is a unit that can take the charge without fleeing. I charge reaction flee with ungors sometimes, or even gors if need be. But if I could take the charge and hold against any of these I would be golden for flak charges up the wazoo. Do beastmen have any of these units? Minotaurs, Besties, etc? or is charge reaction:flee the go-to tactic?

Thanks for all of your comments btw, extremely helpful.

The stubborn rares? No beastmen unit can take a charge from anything powerful... And since this edition is charge or die, they usually choose the latter. Who knows in 8th, where the focus is supposedly back on the footsloggers shoulders... Magic before moving should help charges, but striking last always might make it so they never have enough guys survive to make a difference, charge or not.

Lots of strands in the ol duders head, make sure to keep it limber

Magic before movement has been debunked by those who've seen the book, its not correct, and was just a rumor.

Edit: I tell you what, I DARE a unit of bret knights to charge my unit of Bestigors with my Beastlord and BSB, rerollable LD, starting at 9. Already bringing along 4 SCR, and much more ACR.

Bestigors with a Beastlord can take a charge from a lot of things.

Alright Karon, even though I told you I wouldn't, I'll bite... for 650ish points:

9 Grail knights w/ standard
bsb w/Grail vow
lord w/Grail vow, armor of aguilf, morning star of fracasse, virtue of confidence

1. +6 SCR (three ranks, 2 banners, outnumber)
2. 15 Ws 5, Str 6 attacks + 7 horses from the RnF
3. 3 Ws 5, Str 4 attacks + horse from bsb
4. 4 Ws 10, Str 6 attacks (rerolling all hits/wounds in challenges, destroying your weapon on 4+ for each hit (before wounds) +horse from lord.

A little prequel: knights charge with uberrange and challenge with lord. You accept with your lord thinking his neat ability has finally come into play. I destroy his weapon and do 3 saves at -3 (5+ on your lord). He swings back (with hatred!) and does a wound or two through the armor and ward (being generous). The BSB and Grail knights smash the fur off the bestigor. Test for insane courage and *run*
I'll let you crunch the numbers on your own, I stopped after the 8 wounds from the RnF knights before horses (15 attacks*(2/3)= 10 hits. 10*(5/6)=8 wounds.

Granted there might be more effective ways to spend 650 points, I don't know much about brettonia...

Red_Zeke wrote:Not sure I follow Ragnar. Many (most? all?) armies couldn't include one of each unit in the book. Dwarfs for example, have 7 special choices that spring to mind. So even if I don't double down on anything, I'm still having to leave 3 behind. And those will be the 3 least suited to my overall strategy.

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're getting at?

I understand that most armies won't be able to to take 1 of each of their specials, or all of their rares.

But what makes me shudder is this: With so many special slots, to see such a lack of diversity simply because the unit is percieved as "better" blows my mind.

Such as a tomb kings army that only takes 4 scorpions in its special slots. So many other great units in that slot, and since most players are robots that only understand combat prowess, they look straight to the best combat in the role, and identify immediately that Scorpions>Ushabti>Tomb Guard. Instead of realizing that each one has a very defined role. Ushabti flat out rock face against any other ogre models, and cavalry. Tomb Guard have the most staying power of the 3 and are pretty much the best anvil you can have in the army. Carrion get a quasi look by some players, but are often dismissed because they don't win well in combat. Simply put, that's not their role! After dealing with war-machines and characters stupid enough to be outside of a unit, they can go after other units

I understand you can't take everything. Think of it like this: Your army book is the best seafood restaurant in the world. it's 5 stars.. and what's better it's a seafood Buffet. You pay once, and get access to everything you want. But, for some odd reason, all you do is keep going back for the lobster tail and mountain dew. Sure it may be your favorite. But they've got bacon wrapped scalops, king crab legs that would make Poseidon himself cry, Sword Fish so tender you could use it as a pillow... and you keep going back to the lobster tail ignoring the rest.

It's very rare that an army wouldn't benefit from more diversity out of the special/rare slots.