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You had me at bacon wrapped scallops.

No, this makes sense. I guess I was looking at the question from a single list perspective- you're looking at it from the long run- multiple builds and such?

Kiwidru wrote:Alright Karon, even though I told you I wouldn't, I'll bite... for 650ish points:

9 Grail knights w/ standard
bsb w/Grail vow
lord w/Grail vow, armor of aguilf, morning star of fracasse, virtue of confidence

1. +6 SCR (three ranks, 2 banners, outnumber)
2. 15 Ws 5, Str 6 attacks + 7 horses from the RnF
3. 3 Ws 5, Str 4 attacks + horse from bsb
4. 4 Ws 10, Str 6 attacks (rerolling all hits/wounds in challenges, destroying your weapon on 4+ for each hit (before wounds) +horse from lord.

A little prequel: knights charge with uberrange and challenge with lord. You accept with your lord thinking his neat ability has finally come into play. I destroy his weapon and do 3 saves at -3 (5+ on your lord). He swings back (with hatred!) and does a wound or two through the armor and ward (being generous). The BSB and Grail knights smash the fur off the bestigor. Test for insane courage and *run*
I'll let you crunch the numbers on your own, I stopped after the 8 wounds from the RnF knights before horses (15 attacks*(2/3)= 10 hits. 10*(5/6)=8 wounds.

Granted there might be more effective ways to spend 650 points, I don't know much about brettonia...

Unless, of course, my Cygor levels half your unit with a stonethrower shot, etc, etc. I wasn't ACTUALLY saying ANY knight unit.

And, for the record, how did you get 5+ on my lord? Heavy Armour for 5+, Ramhorn Helm for 4+, Gnarled Hide for 2+, 1+ for the shield. With -3, I'd get a 4+ save.

Again, I say this every time, arguing things in a vacuum solves nothing.

forgot the helm... Is one off really that bad? The overall point was that with a hand weapon the lord prolly won't get many wounds through the armor/ward :(. and I literally just picked some random crap on army builder out of a hat that would statistically put the bestigor unit at insane courage every time. That is just an equal points compairison, using one unit, a lord and bsb... Like the beastmen had. Fighting in a vaccum might not seem important to you, (even though you went out of your way to beg for it) but I suppose that is because you don't want to believe what math tells you... In this case that bestigor will lose an equal value fight. It seems with the cygor comment that you have learned and accepted that statistics are the way you tell how much of your army you need to commit to combat, and what the odds are that going to win... As a new beast general, it is important to know that you cannot win heads up with other elite melée units, and you should plan tactics accordingly.
Easy solution, let them overrun through a sacrifical unit on their turn... Then you can flank charge (removing ranks at no attacks back from lance formation, and get flanking). Of course you don't know to set this up if you don't know that your 650+ point unit is about to get slaughtered. And that knowledge is where the merit of 'vacuum' fights comes in.

No, your pretty much wrong, guy.

My Bestigor unit with the heroes WILL lose the fight to grail knights on the charge, and maybe even NOT on the charge.

Your taking the whole unit for combat prowess, and your not considering the rock 'ard center it provides to the rest of my army. The BSB and Beastlord is in there so I can take best advantage of the 12" range of the re-roll and the generals leadership.

I wouldn't let you get the charge anyways, I'd throw stones at you, flank charge you with my jabberslythe, sacrifice a unit of Gors to flank you, etc.

I don't put all my faith, or judge a unit, just on its combat prowess with another unit that is completely different and serves a completely different purpose than my unit.

I didn't ask for anything, as I knew I would lose to a Grail Knight Deathstar, pretty much ANYTHING loses to a grail knight deathstar. Comparing elite footslogging infantry to extremely heavy cavalry isn't a good analysis.

Red_Zeke wrote:You had me at bacon wrapped scallops.

No, this makes sense. I guess I was looking at the question from a single list perspective- you're looking at it from the long run- multiple builds and such?

Yep.

Not only that, but I'm not too proud to admidt, it took me a year to figure out a good role for Ushabti, and almost 3 before I could figure out something I wanted to do with tomb guard. My intial response was "too expensive, not in my game plan" But i kept using them to decent effect, and then finally it "clicked".

We only hamstring ourselves when we look at a unit and simply dismiss it because it's not good at combat.

Also: This Brettonian Lance argument is making me LOL over and over.

1) Grail Knights versus anything in the game is advantage grail knights.
2) We're talking about 650 pts versus what? 300 max? Yeah, of course it's supposed to lose.
3) Let's even the points out. 12 Knights Errantry versus same unit. Bestigor still loses, and badly.

Does that mean the Bestigor's suck? No it means you suck because you let your opponent charge you with a unit of knights. Your opponent has one tactical option, charge you. It's your job to figure out a way to mitigate the charge and countercharge that same unit in the flank. They hit like trucks and don't have great armor? Hrmm, seems like they need to be striking first... Guess I need to charge. That means that if you take that unit, 1 or 2 more units need to be dedicated to granting that unit the charge. Warhounds and a unit of gor's for support. Now you have a flee reaction, charge blocking, charge soaking, and countercharging abilities. you're welcome.

Oh my bad, I was getting my points values from karon's final list:
L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Ramhorn Helm, Gnarled Hide, Shield = 249 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Pelt of the Shadowgave, Shield, Great Weapon = 161
S: 16 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 247 (Beastlord & BSB) (6x3)
=650ish.
Which is why I took the Grail knights.. It's the only unit I could suck an equal points value into, and I wanted to to be even points wise, as well as tactially (1 unit) If you want to add and add until you are theorizing a game that's fine, but the bestigor WILL be a weak link, as it seems everyone noticed, which is literally all I was saying from the beginning. They NEED help to win combats, no matter how big or stupidly expensive the unit gets.
1. If you arnt gonna engage the opponents hardest units (or if you think he isn't gonna engage you) what's the point of bringing a large expensive block of elite infantry?
2. An elite melée unit of any army will do the same when given equal points.
3. @ragnar: I totally agree, and my armies are quite varied (I have 10 painted forsaken, if you know what that means, you understand I'm one of you).
I'm not saying the bestigor can't serve a purpose, just that if you think they are 'a rock hard center' you are probably playing all freecompany armies. Gors with shields are literally just as good as an anvil T4 5+... Probably better is parry turns to ward. That isn't fair to the newbs that are trying to honestly find where they fall in the grand scheme of things. For 650 points you can also get 40 chaos warriors or 50 demons or a lord on dragon or 15 khorn knights or 10 blood knights with hatred or 300 skaven.

Kiwidru wrote:Oh my bad, I was getting my points values from karon's final list:
L: Beastlord - Heavy Armour, Stonecrusher Mace, Ramhorn Helm, Gnarled Hide, Shield = 249 (General)
H: Wargor – Battle Standard Bearer, Pelt of the Shadowgave, Shield, Great Weapon = 161
S: 16 Bestigors – Full Command, Warbanner = 247 (Beastlord & BSB) (6x3)

Quick tweak i don't use the lord in this unit he's busy else where (close enough for LD but never in it)
Wargor + BSB + Ramhorn helm + uncanny senses + Cacophonous Dirge + great weapon + shield +heavy armour =160
Beastigor (6x3+)+ FC + warbanner = 271

431 points, not used on its own as beastmen don't do well on there own, but well worth the investment as it can boost combats in your favour. Knocks out the enemy's musician and adds +5CR ... and personally i can guess ranges well enough for them to get the charge (10" charge is nothing to complain about), and those strength 6 attacks are great. Sure they need back up but then so do all the beastmen units.

In response to Kiwidru:
1. Target Priority. Just because it's the "elite" unit on the table doesn't mean i'm going to use it to hunt your "eliter" unit.
2. I disagree. Point for point, a black guard unit will "more easily" make up it's points than a bestigor unit. Thing is...bestigors is all beastmen have for "heavy" infantry.
3. No, gor's w/ shields are not as good as bestigors seeing as they have handweapons and bestigors have great weapons. If parry = ward, then we'll see.

I agree, however, that besties need help to win combat. That's a given. But with ambush and chariots and harpies and the like, help is easy to come by.

Lastly, you can compare point values and efficiency all day if you want, but in the end, beasts just dont match up stat to stat with their counterparts in other armies. We have only our army book to work with, so who cares if, instead, somebody else could take 40 chaos warriors? We can't...

Look guys, do whatever you want. Of course. I'm relaying my experience from 3 (including playtesting rumors) editions of beastmen against mortals/demons/ogres/tomb kings/VC/welves/delfs (I'm lucky that my circle is so varied )... Use the info however you want. I would love to hear about the games and opponents y'all have based your ideas on... as I havnt read any batreps that contradict the conclusion I came to. If I have a single unit that is going to take up a 1-2-3-4-fifth of the army, I would want it to, you know, be able to get it's points back or, dare I say, beat something in combat without both a sacrificial unit and a flanker? (which is pretty much cruise control to win ANY combat with ANY units)
if you are playing someone decent (or at least on par), then tactics should be a wash, saying "boom, I always outplay my opponent and get him to fall into the only trap that can win me the game, everytime" seems a bit fanciful... And you should account for him out playing you just as easily. All IMO, and if it isn't wanted I'll stay out of it... Spend your money however you want, play the game you want, have fun

Kiwi:

Looks like in your sig you play WoC, VC, Welves and beastmen. Are there any ways, in your experience, to win in combat with beasts without a sacrificial unit and flank? What do you take the charges with? Or is it a "if i get charged I die". Say I don't take besties like you. What do you use to stand up to knights and monsters looking at it from both sides "against and as" beasts.

I'm not exactly sure how the rumors are going to pan out, but it seems like a farkload of gor with shields will be the best anvil. And that I mean the best unit to take a Top tier charge and stay. T4 and a 6+ ward along with stubborn if they have more ranks (at 8 pts that is easily possible compaired to most elite units you would want to 'tank').
Overall the beasts have enough small units to sacrifice and set up benifitial flanks, that is the far and away the best strat... And unfortunatly one the bestigor don't fit into. They are the eternal guard of the beastmen... Kinda unique with badass fluff, no real place they excell in terms of the rules and the general army playstyle. And I hate to say that. The 20 khorn bestigor I have hate to hear me say that (although I suspect they would agree).
I bring them as I built the army around the old 'hoard of goat men coming to ambush you' idea, and in my mind they belong in an army made of beastmen. That being said there has yet to be a battle with the new book that I didn't wish I had either a unit of centigor or Minotaur instead. With the change in init attacks And rank breaking and how fighting in ranks *really* works it's hard to tell. But impact hits+5 str 5 at init attacks+crush per Minotaur is looking better as a hammer, with more charge range for flanking, at a fraction of the cost.

Edit: as it is now, if any of my units get charged by anything remotely powerful they die... Bestigor just as quickly as Gor. Static res is your only friend as most charges will wipe/cripple your first rank and your counter attacks. Why lose expensive bestigor instead of cheap gor? This also might change with the step up rules, and if they stack with gw fighting in two ranks (crosses fingers, prays to the dark gods, tosses empire archer in the fireplace)

Makes sense. I guess, seeing as how I played with the last book, I've always used AHW gors. But with ranking up now that makes sense. I'll give it a go. I'll Post on Wed. or Thurs. telling how it went (Gaming on Wed.) Thanks to everybody for the input.

Good luck go beasts!

cypher wrote:In 8th they always get their swings and get twice the swings in. They become very good. With a minataur char (with restrained frenzy) they become awesome with 15 GW attacks + the mino's attacks across a 6 man frontage WITH rerolls to hit most of the time.

Now, as it states in another topic, the "Look Out, Sir" rule (or whatever it is called) won't work on a character whose base is bigger than the models in the unit he is with. If this accurate, then wouldn't taking a BL or Wargor (or both) be safer (and ultimately more effective) than taking a GB or DB? Just curious...