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Just a idea as last weekend my fathers Necrons fought a Thousand sons army. In theory like a Necron, since the rubrics are souls inside power armor, could you simply repair them once they were destroyed?

I suppose it depends on how their souls are trapped "in" their armor. If their souls are just a kind of "smoke" (the dust is just their physical remains) that animates the armor, putting holes in it would allow for that "smoke" to escape. If their souls are bound to the ceramite itself, I suppose the armor could just be pieced back together. TBH, there really isn't enough info on them (AFAIK) or "souls" generally in 40k to be sure about it. I'd bet that the Rubric is totally different from whatever ability the C'tan gifted the Necrontyr, however.

In one of the old codexes it was said Thousand Sons replenished their numbers by summoning the souls of 'released' Rubric Marines out of the warp and rebinding them into new power armour tombs. So their numbers remain fixed at 10,000 no matter what casualties they suffer.

Why ten thousand? Is this just how small the Legion was thanks to their genetic instability? Is that how many Tzeentch whisked away from Prospero? Is that how many the Space Wolves had not chewed through when Magnus gave into Tzeentch? One also wonders what happens when they lose sorcerers.

Manchu wrote:Why ten thousand? Is this just how small the Legion was thanks to their genetic instability? Is that how many Tzeentch whisked away from Prospero? Is that how many the Space Wolves had not chewed through when Magnus gave into Tzeentch? One also wonders what happens when they lose sorcerers.

It's a Codex from the 90's. A lot of the new stuff wasn't written yet. Ask whoever wrote for GW back then why they said that many.

Conceivably they could call forth the souls of all the Thousand Sons who died before the Rubric since their geneseed was tainted by Tzeentch in the warpstorms.

As for losing Sorcerors... well Eliphas the Inheritor and other Chaos Marines have been known to return from the dead when the powers of the Warp deign to reform their bodies. Tzeentch Sorcerors in His favour have also been known to be whisked away through the warp when they would otherwise die, so in game-terms while they might be removed as casualties they wouldn't actually be dead.

I think the number 10,000 as the count for the T-Sons comes up in the book 'Thousand Sons' but its been a while since I read it, and I'm no longer sure :/

Nitros14 wrote:It's a Codex from the 90's.

Yes, this is what I was getting at. In other words, it's no longer reliable fluff. GW's respect for canon should be pleasing to a devotee of Tzeentch.

Manchu wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:It's a Codex from the 90's.

Yes, this is what I was getting at. In other words, it's no longer reliable fluff. GW's respect for canon should be pleasing to a devotee of Tzeentch.

I imagine the number 10,000 isn't neccesarily valid but the idea of calling forth 'dead' Rubrics and binding them in new armour tombs is still valid enough.

Not that I would be upset if it did change... and change and change and change and change... AND CHANGE AND CHANGE AND CHANGE AND CHANGE.

Edit: In the book A Thousand Sons the exact count of the Legion on the Planet of the Sorcerors is 1242. Ahriman calls that number 'A tenth of the Legion'

If I'm not mistaken, in ye olde time, the Space Marine Legions where supposed to be 10.000 strong - not more and not less.
So this figure would make sense... well if you discount the fact that, yes, they would have lost quite a few of their own before the curse: Some stayed loyal, a lot where killed by SW and so on. Ah well, maybe it is just the appeal of big, round numbers :-)

Manchu wrote:One also wonders what happens when they lose sorcerers.

Not necessarily, as they could be brought back easily. Look at Lucius for instance. He's a pretty good example, although he serves Slaanesh and not Tzeentch. Every time he dies in a duel the guy who defeated him slowly turns into Lucius, and is then forever trapped in his armour

Also, i find it somewhat ironic that the Thousand Sons, who serve the God of Change, are forever kept from mutation and changes in their bodies. In this regard they truly embody Nurgle, God of Stagnation, but without the plagues, flies and other "gifts" he gives to his followers

Tzeentch is also fond of irony.

Tzeentch is also very much God of Scheming, Hope, Conspiracy, Magic and Ambition.

Why wouldn't Tzeentch be pleased with Ahriman's incredibly ambitious gambit to unleash the greatest spell in history while scheming to bring it to fruition with a group of conspirators right under Magnus' nose? In order to realize the grandest hopes and dreams of the Legion to free itself from self destructive chaos-induced flaws in its geneseed. It's a scheme worthy of the Architect of Fate. Ahriman truly takes fate into his own hands and that's no doubt why Tzeentch was pleased enough to literally save his life when Magnus tried to kill him.

It's a point emphasized over and over in the Libra Chaotica: Tzeentch. Tzeentch loves schemers.

And of course, he was no doubt wryly amused by the ironic result of the Rubric which I'm sure he saw coming a mile away even as he granted Ahriman the power to go through with his insane scheme.

I might add, Tzeentch already has an infinite amount of everchanging Daemonic servants, perhaps he wanted a change so he pulled the strings to get himself some Ghost Marines. After all 10,000 years is just the blink of an eye to an entity that existed before time began and will exist after time has ended.

Why hope, Obama jokes aside?

Manchu wrote:Why hope, Obama jokes aside?

That's the raw emotion Tzeentch is born from, just as Khorne is born of Anger. Think of it in the purely survivalist terms, Hope in the sense of refusing to accept fate and hoping to change it. The drive to evolve, improve. To hope for better. Hope leads to ambition, ambition leads to change.

It's omni-present in every mortal in the galaxy in varying amounts. In the hearts of those with the strongest desire to prevail Tzeentch whispers his insidious promise: The means to life eternal for those unwilling to accept death and oblivion as inevitable. Tzeentch wants you to question... to question everything. Everything can be changed. Tzeentch always ensnares his servants from the ranks of those who hoped to change their world. It's a theme that they really built on in the book A Thousand Sons. Magnus hopes to do so much, to realize his ambition to give every human the gifts he has, to change the galaxy. Tzeentch can't resist that.

Is that Liber Chaotica or you own spin?

Manchu wrote:Is that Liber Chaotica or you own spin?

"The emotion Tzeentch is born of is, perversely, Hope". Direct quote.

He's called by the title "The Herald of Hope" in Liber Chaotica.


It seems weird and all because the Chaos Gods are supposed to be evil right?

When you think about it it makes sense. All of the Chaos Gods are reflections of raw emotions in mortals. The four most powerful Chaos Gods represent the most powerful emotions. Anger, Hope, Despair, Desire.

Let me put it another way. We know the Chaos Gods are all built solely out of the emotion of mortal souls.

Change isn't an emotion. Nor is ambition or magic or knowledge. What emotion are they all born of?

Tzeentch is indeed born of hope.

As a buddhist might say "Hope is the cause of suffering."

I would say 'Ambition' is the emotion there. It is above and beyond simply wishing for something, it's planning and working toward your goals by changing what needs to be different. A persons Ambition is what gets things done not their 'Hope'. I'm not saying that Hope isn't an emotion but it's a rather mild one in comparison; like this:

Sulking is to Anger as Hope is to Ambition and Attraction is to Lust as Neglect is to Apathy.

I don't know about that. I think Hope is a stronger emotion (and word) than ambition actually.

Regardless, Tzeenetch is the god of ambition too.

I guess hope is just a bit ambiguous. For example, isn't desire a sort of hope? Doesn't it especially seem to be the case in regard to ambition, another "emotion" tied strongly to Tzeentch? Ambition is just the desire for advancement, after all, not merely the hope that one will advance. Similarly, Nurgle is not summed up in the word "despiar"--quite the opposite, as He gives hope to those who despair of physical suffering and mortality.

I think the problem is that you (and apparently Richard Williams) are hung up on the word "emotion." This simplistic emotion-god corollary fails in each case. Rather, the Ruinous Powers are more accurately associated with urges. You can see this even in the way you're describing Slaanesh: S/He proceeds from desire, which is not itself an emotion but rather an urge or motive or even "instinct" would be a better word than emotion. Similarly, Khorne does not proceed from anger--although rage-driven violence is a common expression of devotion to that Power. Rather, He is the urge to violence, the bezerker bloodlust. You don't have to be angry to take a billion skulls for the Skull Throne. You can see how Khorne and Slaanesh are "opposites" in this regard--She Who Thirsts desires to embrace, to apprehend, to possess; the Blood God by contrast wants to terminate, to destroy, to render non-existent.

And so we come to the other dyad in the Chaos Pantheon: rather than representing hope and despair respectively, Tzeentch and Nurgle personify humanity's paradoxical craving for both dynamic and static existence. As I already mentioned, the Plaguefather offers hope in the face of the change from life to death--by allowing the subject to embody biological entropy, rendering him impervious to physical hurt and immortal in the face of aging and disease at least. Meanwhile, the Shaper of Fate could be said to offer a sense of despair regarding the endless deceit and conspiracy that ultimately render truth impossible.

One could go either way, but as said before 'Hope' has too much of a positive conotation to be associated with a Choas God. Also I read it as: "Gee, I hope I get a new bike for Christmas" vs. "I'm going to cut grass and shovel snow until I get that bike or die trying!" YMMV.

How about:

Slaanesh: Desire to Possess
Khorne: Desire to Destroy
Nurgle: Despairing of Change
Tzeentch: Embracing/Instigating ("[actively] hoping for") Change


Or, to pair them with verbs:

Slaanesh: seduce
Khorne: attack
Nurgle: rot
Tzeentch: mutate

Nitros14 wrote:It seems weird and all because the Chaos Gods are supposed to be evil right?

When you think about it it makes sense. All of the Chaos Gods are reflections of raw emotions in mortals.

Emotions taken to an -extreme- I might add. Not just simple emotions. They do feed and grow off of basic emotion, but they themselves are the extremes of their represented emotions. Bloodlust from Bravery, Despair from Hope, Sickness from a Cure, Gluttony from Hunger, Opression from Justice (If you remember the "Good" Chaos God from older fluff). these are just basic examples, but it presents the idea well enough. The Chaos Gods feed off of the basic emotions, and then create from them the negative extremes. So yes, they are evil, as they pervert the good-willed and honest emotions of sentient races and turn them into the darkest extent of those forms.

Yes, Hope has a positive connatation in western society but you have to ask why? Certainly, the Imperium of Man is on side with Buddism is saying hope just causes trouble. They don't want the want their unwashed masses hoping for a better lot in life. The just want obediance, and productivity out of them. Too much hope gets in there and your got another rebellion on your hands possibly even some Tzeentch cult activity.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
"We" (especially current Americans ruled by hope-monger Obama) automatically assume Hope is a "good" emotion. If you put asside preconcieved connotations and just use raw logic you can see how is isn't neccesarily. Hope is wanting something more than you have: this can cause unhappiness with what you have.

Manchu wrote:I guess hope is just a bit ambiguous. For example, isn't desire a sort of hope? Doesn't it especially seem to be the case in regard to ambition, another "emotion" tied strongly to Tzeentch? Ambition is just the desire for advancement, after all, not merely the hope that one will advance. Similarly, Nurgle is not summed up in the word "despiar"--quite the opposite, as He gives hope to those who despair of physical suffering and mortality.

I think the problem is that you (and apparently Richard Williams) are hung up on the word "emotion." This simplistic emotion-god corollary fails in each case. Rather, the Ruinous Powers are more accurately associated with urges. You can see this even in the way you're describing Slaanesh: S/He proceeds from desire, which is not itself an emotion but rather an urge or motive or even "instinct" would be a better word than emotion. Similarly, Khorne does not proceed from anger--although rage-driven violence is a common expression of devotion to that Power. Rather, He is the urge to violence, the bezerker bloodlust. You don't have to be angry to take a billion skulls for the Skull Throne. You can see how Khorne and Slaanesh are "opposites" in this regard--She Who Thirsts desires to embrace, to apprehend, to possess; the Blood God by contrast wants to terminate, to destroy, to render non-existent.

And so we come to the other dyad in the Chaos Pantheon: rather than representing hope and despair respectively, Tzeentch and Nurgle personify humanity's paradoxical craving for both dynamic and static existence. As I already mentioned, the Plaguefather offers hope in the face of the change from life to death--by allowing the subject to embody biological entropy, rendering him impervious to physical hurt and immortal in the face of aging and disease at least. Meanwhile, the Shaper of Fate could be said to offer a sense of despair regarding the endless deceit and conspiracy that ultimately render truth impossible.

I definitely think you're misunderstanding me. It's not that they are that emotion or that it's a simple corrolary. They're obviously much more than that. Those emotions are simply the base, the starting point. They take and pervert that emotion, they take it to the extreme where it becomes, as you say, a base urge. But they all DO start with the basic feelings in mortals, don't take me the wrong way and think that's all they are.

Obviously 'desire' is too simple to describe Slaanesh. Certainly to play semantics you can say 'Oh you're desirous of change or killing or stagnation' but I meant the word strictly in the sense of possessing. That is the start point, the basic instinctual feeling (the emotion if you would be so kind as to accept the word in this sense). Like all the Chaos Gods Slaanesh takes it to the absolute extreme and perverts it.

Khorne IS born of anger, but he's so much more than that. The irrational urge to destroy comes from the basic emotion of anger. Khorne takes it to the absolute extreme where all that matters is destroying and terminating.

Nurgle begins with despair and fear. Fear of dying, despairing that you must die. But in the Warp it's taken to the absolute extreme and becomes not HOPE in the face of that despair but APATHY. Nurgle gives you no hope at all, I strongly disagree with you on this point. What he gives is the power of ACCEPTANCE of death and decay. The satisfaction of a static existence. This is very different from giving hope.

Tzeentch begins with hope and curiosity, it's present in every mortal being. That is not to say Tzeentch is a positive wonderful god. Tzeentch takes the desire to evolve and improve and hope for better and turns it into the extremes that he represents. Ambition, Desire to Control, Conspiracy, Change and Change for no reason but to Change and Selfishness to the absolute extreme. Tzeentch does not offer despair regarding deceit and conspiracy, I don't think any Tzeentch follower has ever felt that. Where did you come up with that? Those who are closest to Tzeentch believe in infinite possibility. They see the strands of possible futures fly out before them and believe that they can know everything and control everything. Ahriman, who is extremely favoured by Tzeentch, believes that the Warp can be controlled for his benefit, that he can know everything, that he can outwit Tzeentch and become all powerful. His hopes and ambition are nigh infinite and in his selfishness he cares nothing for Tzeentch. For that reason he embodies everything Tzeentch is and that is why he is so favoured.

Those who worship Tzeentch believe everything is possible and there is nothing that cannot be changed.

Now I could see where you could think there is despair, because Tzeentch is a God of absolute selfishness and patron of liars. So yes he lies without end and perhaps to the those who do not have any affinity for him they might well feel despair due to the endless deceit and conspiracy.

But that is to misunderstand Tzeentch and the worldview he and his followers operate under. Tzeentch is the Architect of Fate, not meaning he has any respect for fate but that he changes it at will, that HE is the puppetmaster. For Tzeentch, of course Truth doesn't exist, because remember everything can be changed. Truth is no exception, Tzeentch and his followers believe they can change Truth and reality itself at will to suit them because they believe everything is possible and their own potential is endless. It's the original emotion of hope taken to its absolute farthest extreme. The belief that for them specifically, everything can be changed to benefit them positively because they're infinitely selfish, self-confident and controlling. The sort of self-confidence that Tzeentch worship engenders allows no room for despair or self-doubt, certainly not for 'Truth' which is like everything else: infinitely malleable. And to be free from the control of any other, one must change and change until Change is your only master, for nothing neither God nor mortal can control that which has no form.


So yeah. That's the long version of "Tzeentch: Hope".

Nitros14 wrote:What he gives is the power of ACCEPTANCE of death and decay.

This is very well put and illustrates my position nicely. I'm not playing semantic games but rather trying to point out that assigning a single word for an emotion (and is something like "hope" even an emotion?) to the Chaos gods or even to just their inception in mortal experience projected into the Warp is utterly misleading. The way that you have shown that Nurgle offers acceptance of decay more than hope of avoiding death is a great example of the many levels of complexity that underly the Ruinous Powers. Isn't that acceptance a kind of hope? Clearly, using these kinds of words requires some careful thought and work at defining them. But all this has little to do with human feelings, motives, urges, and instincts being "perverted" in the Warp. What is frightening about the Warp Gods is that they offer something all-too familiar--not an extreme of what we experience psychologically but rather the physical manifestation of that experience (think about the metaphysical existence of daemons on this note). I also see a contradiction in your ideas about Tzeentch: you're trying to incorporate infinite possibility and endless change ("having your cake") at the same time as complete knowledge and absolute contol ("eating it, too"). I'm afraid it doesn't add up as you've described it. Unless Tzeentch really is, first and foremost, the Master of Irony.

Yes, I agree it is a little bit misleading. It's trying to simplify what would otherwise take a lot of paragraphs to explain. I agree entirely that there are many layers of complexity to the ruinous powers. I disagree to an extent on it being perversion. It is in fact a perversion because it removes the rational part of the human mind that holds these psychological urges in check and instead lets the urge run wild to the farthest extent it can. It's twisted beyond what any sane being would allow.

Manchu wrote:I also see a contradiction in your ideas about Tzeentch: you're trying to incorporate infinite possibility and endless change ("having your cake") at the same time as complete knowledge and absolute contol ("eating it, too"). I'm afraid it doesn't add up as you've described it. Unless Tzeentch really is, first and foremost, the Master of Irony.

Excellent point. The way I see this is it's not a contradiction for a reason. They don't actually have complete knowledge or absolute control but they seek and obsess on it. It is the ultimate goal but one that can never be achieved in the dynamic Universe of constant change they live in. Tzeentch schemes constantly to gain more control of the change of existence and more knowledge of its nature (Throwing Fateweaver into the Well of Eternity?), as do his followers, but no absolutes are possible in a world where everything can change.

Note again, the difference between believing in and having the ambition to obtain such a goal and actually obtaining it. The goal will keep Tzeentch scheming for all eternity but of course he can never achieve it. Is it rational? Of course not. This is the Warp, where rationality is gone and all that matters is acting on insane urges (Commanding legions of Lords of Change to record Fateweaver's every word?). Tzeentch is most certainly insane, but he embodies, as you say, urges. So for that reason there's no fundamental inconsistency.

Perhaps it is irony of a sort, but Tzeentch is certainly not the master of it. It's the irony of His existence.

That's very well put!

So um, this thread went sorta off topic. I do think a Rubric Marine can be repaired if the power armour was recovered, since Tzeentch Sorcerors could summon the escaped soul out of the warp (Tzeentch willing) and rebind it to the armour, per fluff. Even in Theroy, whatever that is.

I like Theroy this time of year. Quite a pleasent breeze.

I'd imagine the practice of soul binding is like looking for a needle in a needlestack. It would depend on how powerful the sorcerer is as to how easy the task would be, but it can't be easy. The things dwelling in the warp covet souls above all else and don't relinquish them readily.

There would certainly have to be many thralls sacrificed to stave off the attentions of lesser beasts and complex wards setup similar to the throne room on Terra to prevent a cascade of warp spawn flowing through the open channel while bringing the soul from the warp into the armor.