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For what has already been released... I see great potential. Yes the rules are very simplistic, but Rackham was very upfront about OD being a beginer/basic ruleset.

I went so far as to purchase another OD set. Combined with my buddies we are actually having some pretty fun games. The basic game gets alot better/tactical the bigger the board you use.

I think my view is this:

IF.... IF in a couple of months Rackham comes out with decent ruleset... they will cut into the 40k market. I know I will have a very hard time decidng between a $25.00 box of unglued/unassembled/untrimmed/unpainted firedragons and a $25.00 box of White Star Tacarm troopers that will complete and the only preperation be me ripping open the box.

Again this is all dependent on a good ruleset. The "preview" ruleset they have given us though definately has promise.

The reviews from you all look promising. But I might wait till the full rules are out....

Well my take:

Value: It is very good. 17 troops, 2 'dreadnoughts', terrain, dice, misc, all pre-painted for $60-$80. That is competitive with competing products. If you hate the pre-painted paint jobs then you still get pre-assembled and primed minis for basically no extra cost.

GW IG Squad/2 = $15 (Equivalent of the White Star troops)
GW Necron Squad = $30 (Equivalent of the Therian troops)
2 x SM Dreadnought = $70 (Equivalent of the combat striders)
Total = $115 at a discount
Battle For Macragge = $40 but no dreadnoughts so add $70 = $110

Gameplay/Rules: Good. It is an intro set aimed at bringing in new gamers and giving others starter forces. The rules are perfect for that goal. Even for intro rules they have some interesting aspects to them. The 'Babblefish' comparison is unfair. The few oddities are quaint at worst and cause little to no confusion. In a world of multinational sales I see no problem with them. They are certainly cleaner and clearer than many native English rules out there.

The advanced rules will be out in a month or two and we’ll be able to judge then how good the rules really are. Yes Macragge did include the full 40K rules but in a hobbled version (no color, no fluff, no modeling, no Kill Team, no missions) that would cause most folks to want to buy the full book anyway and any expansion of the basic Macragge set requires the Tyranid and Space Marine codices (another $40). It remains to be seen if AT-43 will require ‘codices’ but it seems they will do a similar function with the cards that will come with the purchase of each miniature set.

Popularity: Only time will tell how popular the game becomes and how long it stays around. Rackham probably has the biggest influence on that. If they support the game well it will have a real chance to become a big title. If they do not or if the advanced rules fail then it probably will wither and die. As for ‘easy in, easy out’ I agree but once a gamer has spent $200-$300 on forces it is not exactly a minor commitment even if no painting is involved. I would guess the ‘easy in’ aspect will counter the ‘easy out’. There are board games that are long out of print (Space Hulk a prime example) that we still play regularly because they are easy to get into and to which to introduce new players.

It will certainly take the advanced rules and a few more mini packs to tell how good AT-43 will be, but I think it is off to an admirable start.

{{{1. How does this game play?}}}

Well. The rules are fairly basic but have some interesting bits to them including initiative order movement. They are easy to teach to new players even in their entirety.

{{{2. What are the plans for additional troops and units?}}}

Rackham's site lists releases through April 2007. Basically a handful of new units including striders with modeling/weapon options, advanced rules, and terrain packs will all be out in the first quarter of 2007. Rackham has also mentioned at least one new army (the RedBlock?).

{{{3. When you say that the game has another book coming out, does that mean that the game is incomplete? Will the rulebook be something compareable to a codex, or a hard basic rulebook, }}}

AT-43 is not incomplete but it is just a starter set like GW's Battle for Macragge. It can be played and enjoyed as is but most folks who like what they see will want to get the follow-on products to add more options and depth. The advanced rulebook, from my understanding, will be a hardback similar to the 40K rulebook but we won't know for sure until more details are released. I have not heard anything about 'codex' equivalents being needed for AT-43 but we also won't know that for sure until later.

I think that people should not argue about the price too much. If you insist, please keep the following points in mind:

1.  Everyone's financial resource is different. Your $80 may mean very little or very much to me.

2.  The value of the goods depends on the buyers' desire. The Confrontation starter set, for example, may be a steal to someome. On the other hand, if you have no interest in playing Confrontation, even one penny is too much.

3.  All gaming companies have to make money. They are trying to aim at a mark where most people will feel that it is a bit too much but still want to pay to for it.

4. The price is different in various areas. In US, the cheapest online store sells the OD set at $56. In Europe, it may go over 80 Euro. I simply cannot explain why there is such a discrepancy.

Please remember that no one forces you to pay/play AT-43. If the game does not appeal to you, go find something that interests you. There is no point for you to keep on bashing this one.

>>4. The price is different in various areas. In US, the cheapest online store sells the OD set at $56. In Europe, it may go over 80 Euro. I simply cannot explain why there is such a discrepancy.

Two reasons; firstly because US sales tax (usually 5-8%) isn't included in the price quoted while Euro prices include VAT at 17-20%. Secondly because international exchange rate fluctuations take time to be reflected in retail prices.

Also social costs -- Euro zone businesses usually pay higher taxes that US and have to set prices higher.

If you check out the release section of the Rackham site (http://www.at-43.com/community_events.php?lg=EN&events=38) you can find some pics of a couple of the upcoming expansion packs. The paint jobs look much better than what the Initiation Set minis have even though the pics say they are of production models. I figured they were still studio painting.

But I just stumbled across a thread in the forum that the expansions will indeed have a higher painting quality than the Initiation Set. I guess that will explain the higher per-model cost of the expansions vs the Initiation Set. Should be interesting to see what they actually look like when they come out.

SERIOUSLY!

The "if you don't like it don't play" argument is RIDICULOUS and getting quite old.

Dakka is a discussion forum where we can discuss things. The people that like AT-43 have just as much right to post as those that dislike. Where we break down is when we start ignoring other people's opinions.

For example, if everyone that didn't like AT-43 just DIDN'T post negative reviews on this thread, and all you had were POSITIVE reviews, then the curious gamer might think that its the greatest thing since sliced bread and definetely want to pick it up....but they may end up being disappointed. Some people value different aspects of a game, and having a balanced thread with pros and cons and negatives and positives is MUCH more informative then just "SPACE MARINES ROXXORS!"

If you want that crap, you can always go to Bolter and Chainsword or Portent.

And for the record, I found the negative and positive feedback to be equally helpful and informative, and helped me decide that I will not be picking up the starter box until more of the rules and units become available.

There's a difference between having an opinion and holding forth on a position. The various reviews of AT-43 on here are opinion, derived from experience. Boggins up there has a position, and as his selective quotation illustrates, he doesn't seem to have any intention of shifting on it. His input to this thread is hysterical polemic and that's never useful to anyone except himself and whatever silly little agenda he has convinced himself he is persuing.

 

 

Nobody mines a negative review of the product, so long as you have experience with it.

Telling me it sucks and the models suck when you havent picked up the box, nor played the game doesnt tell me anything useful.

Well, it tells you the poster is an idiot, which is somewhat useful.

You haven't been around Dakka much, have you?

While I generally agree that people need to move on if something's not compelling to them, Cruentus wasn't wrong to say certain members of this forum don't apply the same logic to all things GW. In fact, it becomes kind of a personal crusade with them. So if someone wants to make AT-bashing their crusade, I don't know why that behavior is any different than the GW-bashing that is more than tolerated here. The same goes for criticizing someone for posting opinions about AT-43 without having all the information. This happens all the time here with GW stuff, and I think Web forums of all types would have a hard time generating traffic if speculative opinions were eliminated. Reactionary uninformed rants are the very lifeblood of the Web.

Getting back on topic, I've seen the miniatures and the Firetoad is the only thing that jumps out at me. They'll need to have some pretty compelling miniatures coming down the pike for me to even consider it, because I'm not that impressed by what I see in the boxed set.

And who is to say I haven't seen the game, the rules, or the minis?  Oh, and here is a review by a friend in my gaming group (unsolicited, who picked up the game).  Looks like I wasn't an uninformed as some people assumed  :

"I will be playing my first game today, but having read through the rules
here are my first impressions :

Huge disappointment.

Maybe my expectations were too high, but I really wanted to like this game.  The fluff is nearly non-existent.  And once again instead of springing for a decent English translation you get that stilted computer driven auto-translation -that just sucks whatever enjoyment I might have been able to derive from the narrative description of the game.  A background story is very important to me as that's what sets the 'stakes' on the outcome.  Without being invested in the outcome, you're just pushing plastic around on the table

It is basically a squad level game with descriptive cards for stats -a
Confrontation/40K hybrid is the best shorthand I can give.  The package is very misleading as it turns out the rulebook in the starter set is NOT
complete.  There are some stats that are not even addressed and apparently will be released later (morale immediately comes to mind).  So $70 and the damned set isn't even complete.

Once again Rackham's miniatures are second to none, as good if not better than GW.  They're painted to a really decent table-top standard to boot. 

Bur Rackham has to get over their Anglo-phobia (or are they just too cheap?) and get a better translation system in place.  They're right across the channel from a nation with the longest, most inspired English literary heritage in the world; I can't believe this is the best they can do.  I have no doubt the Assemblée Nationale would outlaw this game if an English version had been translated this badly into French."

 

Hey man, everyone can have an opinion. If you do not like AT-43, cool.



Here is the problem I have with your post though. The rulebook in the starter "Initiation" set is complete. There just is no other way to argue this. Racham has been very open to the fact that the Rulebook in the OD box set is a beginer/basic "Initiation" ruleset. It is VERY complete. Please people stop saying it is not. Yes there is an advanced ruleset that will come out later. This does not make the current "Initiation" ruleset incomplete.



Dude I do not know what rulebook your buddy read, but the OD "Initiation" Rulebook was written fine. It did not come off as a translation at all.

Posted By methoderik on 12/29/2006 6:56 AM
Dude I do not know what rulebook your buddy read, but the OD "Initiation" Rulebook was written fine. It did not come off as a translation at all.

Sigh.  When English speakers cannot recognize bad English when they read it, the time has come to the turnip-cart upend.  Come, my brothers, let us leave this place of broken dreams!

The missions, and thus the rules, seem perfectly clear to me. The intro 'story' is appalling, but its only a few paragraphs.

I can recognize bad English just fine thank you. I said it was written fine, and did not seem like a bad translation. Was it proper, perfect English, No. What rulebook is? But please, I beg you, continue on and leave this place...

I just realized I misspoke in my review that started this thread (and will edit the post now). The AT-43 rules are NOT the same as the download. The download is only 12 pages and is missing all of the missions and the rules that get introduced during those missions. Anyone looking ONLY at the downloaded rules is going to be confused.

The rulebook is certainly not in perfect English, but so what? It is perfectly readable and understandable. Is it too difficult for anyone to understand the phrase, "The unit’s cohesion is respected." means "The unit has proper cohesion." or "The unit is within cohesion range."? Yes there is some odd phrasing but in no case do the oddities make the rules unclear in my opinion. Moreover, there are not that many instances of odd phrasing. There is not even one odd phrase per page. I can understand that odd phrasing may bug some people. But frankly I would rather have the Rackham rules than some other game rules that are in perfect English but still confusing.

Saying that AT-43 is incomplete I think is simply unfair. Yes the cards have information on them that is not used. How is that 'incomplete'? That's like saying because all the units are not used in all the missions the missions are incomplete. So if Rackham provided simplified cards that could not be used with the advanced rules that would make the game complete?! It is a complete and playable game. I've been playing it all week and will be playing a custom scenario today using two sets.

Compared to some of the other prepainted games coming out, is this game better, or worse, or is the pre paint phase just another fad?

I haven't played this game, but from what I can see it is what it is, just another one off. I don't see a real " Hook" to it that makes it anything more or anything less. What about this game would compel me to go in and pick it up, besides the added, " oh and the guys are painted" ? What justifies the price for the product? It seems pretty steep to me, and for not much.

As well as this, which one of the new prepainted games really seriously looks to be worth getting into?
I was disappointed by the Star Wars figures, as well as thier lame mini's combat rules, and I've not looked seriously at WOTC products ever since.
I bought into Mongooses SST and I liked that game fine until I felt burned that they decided to pull it as a viable game, and would really like to say that I was all the better for it, but I still can't help feeling screwed.
It wasn't my fault that they had a bad following, but so told,they as well are supposed to be bringing this out as a prepaint.I see this as well as a hook to try to help bring life into the already dying gaming market.
Is this what I get to look forward to as a viable option for gaming?
Will this game be around for more then a year, and be able to keep ones attention?

{{{What about this game would compel me to go in and pick it up, besides the added, " oh and the guys are painted" ?}}}

Well that's a good question. I guess...nothing. I am a big sci-fi fan and AT-43 seems to have the look and concepts I like so I am hoping the advanced rules and follow-on units will provide a good alternative to 40K with pre-painted minis (and of course they have announced four months worth of follow-on products). That of course all remains to be seen. I have a lot of friends who enjoy gaming but have zero interest in modeling. As a result I have to buy and build all the forces if I want to get them to play a game. AT-43 could solve that and in fact one friend already bought his own set. But with just the Initiation Set I would have to say it is just a mildly interesting game and doesn't provide anything particularly special besides the pre-painted minis...and a potential for greater things.

I do think AT-43 deserves some extra notice because it is the first 'real' miniatures game to provide quality pre-painted miniatures. It also shows an attention to detail and level of presentation and production that is not that common in the wargaming world. Even the intro rules are more detailed than any of the 'collectible' game rules out there and, I think, even those who do not like the paint quality will admit AT-43 is way ahead of the collectible stuff in both mini and paint quality.

Whether AT-43 gains a following will depend on the quality of the advanced rules and whether or not Rackham can stick to a reasonable release schedule. If either of those fail I suspect the game will ultimately fail as well.

As for Mongoose it is my understanding that Starship Troopers is not being abandoned. In fact it will get a major boost with pre-painted minis in the later half of 2007. The minis are supposed to be identical to the existing ones so you can mix and match the 'normal' minis with the pre-paints. They are re-sculpting the Skinnies as well. I do not know if the troubles with the game have had more to do with game sales or Mongoose's own ability to support the game on a proper schedule. Personally I liked the rules a lot but hated the minis so I haven't bothered with it.

Mongoose also has their new Battlefield Evolution game that will be out in a month or two. It also features pre-painted minis. It will follow a similar pattern to AT-43 in that each mini pack will come with simple rules and they will release a full rulebook in mid 2007.

Rumor has it that their Babylon 5 game (A Call to Arms) will get pre-painted minis in 2008 along with updated rules.

If you don't like AT-43, maybe Battlefield Evolution will be your thing.

Orstarwarsminiscrap

I saw the figs at the FLGS about a week ago. Actually pretty nice, as Torgoch said. Probably as nice as most of the better-than-average stuff I see in the store regularly. One guy was clearly repainting his golems, but it looked mostly like adding highlights and the like.

I didn't see the game played (I was in the middle of a WM game), but the people playing/demoing seemed pretty excited by it.

I'm probably not going to go for it for the same reasons I didn't go for SST: I didn't see it as being different and popular ENOUGH to differentiate it from the slew of games out there. Not even so much an issue of money as players: I know I can find people to play WM, 40k, and Battletech in my area; after that the odds drop precipitously.

It still smacks of "toys" to me rather than "hobby". I play Confrontation, but I have little to no interest in this so far. The poses of the first figs look pretty bad, they are pre-painted, and very toy-like plastic. It just does not stir up anything in me. It took all the good of Confrontation and made it bad, and if the rules end up like Confrontation, it will just not be worth playing. It's just a boardgame to me, not a Wargame so far, and I am not a boardgame guy.

And I have my opinion because I had much higher hopes, which have been dashed.

It might be good for what it is, but in my mind could have been much much better.

Respect on your opinion. I would only ask: Isn't it early to cast that type of judgement with only the preview/initiation set so far being released?

That is usually what draws you in, and this just doesn't. At some future time I may change my mind, but I still just don't see any reason to get into it. The only way they really could is by making metal figs for the game, and unpainted.

For me I see considerable value in the set, you get two dreads and 17 infantry models and five terrain pieces all in hard plastic, assembled, primed and painted, all for $50-80 (depending where you purchase and how good a deal you can find). Which is around if not a little more than the price of many big box board games. The figures themselves look good enough to use as is, but it's certain to be a painless operation to run them through some soapy water and either completely repaint to one's liking (they're already primed) or just add touch-ups and extra detail.

I'm guaranteed to get this to lure non-gaming friends and family into miniature games, all whom are very much turned off by the huge capital and time investment of traditional tabletop wargames. Hopefully that will get them (eventually) interested in the traditionals too.

We just finished a game of about 1,100 points per side (using the point lists posted on the AT-43 forum) using two sets of OD.

We used the two room maps and placed them together on the long side. The White Stars were attacking two generators and the Therians were defending. The White Stars had all of the available forces in play organized into five units. All WS forces started off the map but all came on during first turn.

The Therians had almost all their available forces minus a few Golems and only one Wraith organized into four units. Two units started on the map, one arrived on turn 2, and the Wraith arrived at a random entry point on turn 3. The Therians got a reinforcement unit of three Golems upon elimination of any Therian unit.

The game went seven turns and took about two hours. The White Stars won but it was close. All the WS's had left was a damaged Fire Toad and one unit of six Steel Troopers. The pivotal point of the game was probably when an attack by two missile launchers impacted and killed the damaged Wraith. Without that luck the Therians probably would have won. What is really funny about that is we hadn't been able to hit anything with the missile launchers in any previous game!

Overall it was a good time and playing with larger forces is a lot more fun than the single set!

The only problems that came up were whether you can fire on a unit engaged in close combat and can troops block the movement of Striders. We played it that you could fire into a CC and any of your own units would take hits as normal for a fire corridor. We also played it that troops did block Strider movement. Although we suspect the advanced rules will have some sort of overrun rule for Striders moving onto enemy units.

I think it'll get a lot more interesting once snapfire and other advanced shooting rules have been introduced, but i really like the fact accuracy is dependent on range as well as skill. How did that play out at larger distances than in the intro missions?

On my reading you can shoot into combat, as you described.

White Star forces do better than the Therians at long range so it is best for them to hang back if possible. A good WS tactic is to shoot and then back away. The game overall felt better than 40K even with the simple rules. The flexibility to shoot and move; move and shoot; shoot, move and assault; rush; plus being able to fire at multiple units with special weapons all makes for a lot of tactical options.

The initiative sequence really starts to matter with more units in play. It is a great device. As one side starts to loose units they lose flexibility as well as the other player gets more activations in a row. It also very simply simulates lack of tactical flexibility with larger but fewer units over smaller but more numerous ones. There is a sweet spot in there but the process adds greatly to the game. Why 40K hasn't done something like this long ago is beyond me.

We also discovered that just a small force of Therians can ruin the WS player's day. My opponent popped up a three Golem unit (one with a Sonic Gun) and got 4 kills in one shooting attack on one of my squads and then charged in and killed 2 more. I wiped the unit out next activation but that was a real surprise!

Adding some sort of overwatch/snapfire rule would be really nice and would only enhance the tactical feel of the game.