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You might want to change your gaming group where you are. It is amazing how each little clique develops its own culture.

- Greenie

Posted By skyth on 01/30/2007 2:38 PM
Hopefully moving to Rochester will help in that respect. People up there that I've talked with seem to be more interested in actual competetive lists.

That's the strange part. Looking at the pictures, and even some of the armies you played, it's not like they were all randomly selected, completely inefficient, typical GW 'Everything is Effective' pattern lists.

Some of them looked pretty good, but you're the one who got dinged. Very strange.

BYE

Sympathies, skyth...the link won't work for me, but it sounds like you were robbed. Out of curiosity, what was the average age like for the players involved? Having an opponent walk out in a huff and getting slaughtered on soft scores just because you had some wins are to be expected against some demographics, but a little disapointing for those of the age of majority.

Despite what most people on Dakka may think, Godzilla Nids are way more effective an army than assault cannon heavy marines, drop pod armies or almost anything in the Marine codex. People notice that Carnifexes are way undercosted compared to any Marine or Imperial HS choice. You can't stun a Carnifex, it can move and still shoot all of it's guns and one lascannon can't instantly kill it. Nobody is telling you not to take 6 to 8 Monstrous Creatures but you shouldn't complain if they wack you on soft scores. That is the price you pay for playing an uber army.

I find it quite silly that so many people don't consider Godzilla nids a powergamers army.

Agreed with Tau-Cent. Zilla is super-tough, and I am always suprised to find so many at dakka thinking it's not.

I think an anti-zilla tactica is actually in order... Maybe I'll get cracking on that since I've retired my zillas.

It's not all that hard to build an anti-Godzilla army. Unfortunately a pure anti Godzilla list tends to be a force that is unlikely to be able to take on all comers. In my tournament armies I tend to build a list that should at the very least get a draw against Godzilla nids. Most people build to fight against MEQ and this plays into the advantage Godzilla nids have at tournaments.

I don't whine when I get shafted on soft scores with my BA, I wouldn't expect a Godzilla nid player to whine either when playing such an army.

What's next IW, Mech Eldar, Mech Tau and Demon Bomb players crying about soft scores?

If you are going to powergame, you will have to live with bad soft scores.

This has inspired me to build up a nid list once again just for the variaty it offers. Marines have bored me to tears not because of thier list options but just the sheer number of 3+ saves in tournements. I am thinking hordes of gaunt variants with MC following behind.

In tourney play I am 11-0 with my godzilla nids. They are a very hard army that a take-all-comers list can't handle. It is so easy to win with them that I retired them.

Oddly, I played in a league with them where they knew ahead of time what they were facing, and I went 4-6.

I was not upset when I received bad soft scores with my Godzilla nids. But I came back to the next RTT with a little bug horde with 1 Hive Tyrant, and 2 HS Carnifexes and my soft scores still got tanked.

Some armies just end up building up bad reps, IW come to mind. Nids are starting to fall into that category also now.

Nids are pretty uber in almost any configuration at a tournament, especially against take all comers lists. Horde - Can't shoot ALL the little bastards before they tie you up, then when (if) you can clear them out, the slow moving hitters come and munch the scraps of  your forces. Nidzilla - HOW many 2+ save, t6, immune-to-instant-death wounds do you have? OMFG! "  The best most armies can do is try to clear objectives in the end gameturns, and pray for a draw.

I agree you got tanked inappropriately on your soft scores, but in a non-comp environment the only thing a good Nid general has to fear is another good Nid general.  

It's strange that everyone whines when they see 4 or more monstrous creatures. Especially when you think that thier equivalent are vehicles in other armies but you don't here any whining when that marine player takes four or more vehicles. People need to get over it. A Carnifex is basically a tank in the nid players build and a dakkafex a Tornado equivelant. I wouldn't soft score players of other armies for taking to many Tornadoes or to many skimmers. The other end of the spectrum would be a mass horde army of 150+ bugs and that would definatley get lower marks also. I feel for you bug players it's a no win situation and it really shouldn't be.

One has to have little to no understanding about the effectiveness of tanks compared to Monsterous Creatures to make such a statement.

-Vehicles can be destroyed in one shot.
-Monsterous Creatures can not be killed in one shot, they benefit from coversaves, and many have inv saves.

-Even if not destroyed, tanks can be stunned and rendered ineffective for 1 turn. This can be done repeatedly to prevent them from ever moving or shooting.
-Monsterous Creatures can not be stunned, they can always move and they can always shoot.

-Tanks can only fire one main weapon when they move.
-Monsterous Creatures can fire 2 weapons even if they move.

You essentially have to have little to no competitive tournament experience to think tanks are even close to comparable in effectiveness to Monsterous Creatures.

If I face a three Predator Marine army, I guarantee you, by the end turn two there will be three smoking wrecks on the board. No matter which one of my take all comers GT armies I am using.

If I face off against three Monstrous Creatures (usually 7 to 8 MC) there MAY be one or two dead Monstrous Creatures in the same time. Unless I design an army specially geared to fighting Monsterous Creatures.

I suggest you actually play in some top table GT level competitive games against Godzilla nids before comparing one to a Marine Tank or Landspeeder.

Posted By Lemartes on 02/01/2007 12:19 PM
 A Carnifex is basically a tank in the nid players build and a dakkafex a Tornado equivelant.

While I don't totally disagree with your general point, this is not accurate.  A tank can be taken out with a single shot.  Carnifex are much harder to bring down. 

edit: whoops, cross-posted.

In a Nid list tanks are thier equivalent and I am not saying thier the same by comparison but nids are bio constructs so they have wounds. Just like your statements that if things can be taken out in a single shot thier equivalent to a tank. Again it comes back to a fairness statement.



Quote ne has to have little to no understanding about the effectiveness of tanks compared to Monsterous Creatures to make such a statement.

-Vehicles can be destroyed in one shot.
-Monsterous Creatures can not be killed in one shot, they benefit from coversaves, and many have inv saves.



Monstrous creatures can be shot down with bolters and lasguns, tanks cannot. (except rear armor) Basically every weapon in the game can efectively deal with a MC. Regular power weapons are useless against a tank not so with MC. As for tournament experience I have one 12+ local FLAGS tournaments and have three RTT trophies for overall winner. 1 additional for paints. It's actually the players who come up against MC lists and get owned who cry foul after the fact and those who expect it who complement the Nid palyer for haveing a great list. When I play a tournament I expect to face at least one and plan accordingly. Play better.

I have had near pro-painted quality armies photographed and posted on the GW website that got below average paint scores at major tournaments when judged by my opponents. I am sure one or two sour opponents didn't like getting massacred and decided to take revenge by docking me on painting and brought down my overall score, but you live with it.  I have also seen other example of cheating with softscores at tournaments, where groups of people come together and dock everyone outside their group on soft scores. No point in whining about it, nothing you can do about it, expect go for Best General. Sometimes one gets great soft scores despite the army or under the Massacre system such high battle scores that they win Best Overall. That has happened to me at Tournaments also.

Basically every weapon in the game can efectively deal with a MC.

That is a joke right? Tell me that is a joke or your definition of 'effectively' is the polar opposite of mine.

And by the way, not every weapon in the game can wound every MC in the game. (let alone do it 'effectively')

 

If monstrous creatures got "shaken" anytime they took a wound, they would be closer to being on par with tanks. Right now they are clearly better.

It would take an average of 108 bolter shots at bs4 to kill a 4 wound, T6, 3+ save creature. Twice as many if they are 2+. I wouldn't call that an effective way to kill it.

I bet if a dakkafex were in 5+ cover a 6 man las plas squad could shoot at it in rapid fire range for 6 turns and not kill it most of the time.

Posted By Tau-Cent on 01/31/2007 9:42 AM

If you are going to powergame, you will have to live with bad soft scores.

Proving quite conclusivley that you don't understand what 'power gaming' is, or that you have somehow confused 'competative list' with 'power game', two terms which I can assure you are not interchangable.

BYE

I am going to assume that you don't consider Maxing out on a particularly good unit to be powergaming?

The guy has 7 Monstrous Creatures, the list is based mainly on the concept that most of his opponents list won't have enough of the right types of weapons to deal with such a situation. Unless you are the type of person that considers lasguns and bolters 'effective' against a Carnifex, you know that most take all comers list are screwed against such an army.

It's fine if he is your friend and you want to sooth his feeling. But I will call a spade a spade. Godzilla nids are a powergamers army. I personally don't have a problem with that, but clearly his opponents did.

The powergame list would have been much worse. Flying Tyrant, Raveners, only 32 spinegaunts for troops (4 squads of 8).

The people there don't actually understand what a powergaming list is. I brought my daemonhunters last year, and someone mentioned that that list was worse than the one I brought this year.

"...you know that most take all comers list are screwed against such an army."

Not true at all. I know a lot of Space Marine players that run around nine lascannons in their 1500 point 'take all comers' armies. They could smoke zilla Nidz.

- Greenie

9 lascannons? I would still bet on 6 Carnifexes.

Care to post a sample 'take all comers' marine lists that can deal with Godzilla nids?

Posted By Tau-Cent on 02/02/2007 5:07 AM
the list is based mainly on the concept that most of his opponents list won't have enough of the right types of weapons to deal with such a situation.

 

This comment makes no sense.  How many armies don't try to abuse your opponents limitations.

Hoard Lists bet you don't have enough anti infantry weapons

Mechanized bet you don't have enough anti tank weapons. 

Assault lists bet you don't have the firepower to destroy them quickly enough with shooting

Shooting armies bet you are not fast enough to make it into CC before being shot to pieces

Etc. Etc. Etc.

By not attempting to overwork one of your opponents weapon types, your guarenteeing that he always has enough of the right weapon to shoot you with. 

Qoute: I am going to assume that you don't consider Maxing out on a particularly good unit to be powergaming?


Then according to this statement everyone is a power gamer. I don't know of to many players who don't try to max out on thier best (effective) units and opt to go with thier worst.   Play better.  Every list in my experience has it's rock, paper, and scissors equivalent.  In my area Las/plas, Tornado, with Term assault cannons thrown in are destroying MC lists.  Thrown in some hidden fists with counter charge capabilities and it seems to do fine.  You shoot the little bugs first as they try to tie you up.  Once thier cleared you focus on the big ones.  You can basically ignore the shootiness of MC because most can't hit half the time and those that do you still get your saves.  The most effective on marines being the Dakkafex who has limited range so shoot him first.

Qoute: I bet if a dakkafex were in 5+ cover a 6 man las plas squad could shoot at it in rapid fire range for 6 turns and not kill it most of the time.

I bet if that were to happen the marine player would be tactically challenged. Let me paint a picture of how it would actually go. Marine player in most scenarios has range and shoots you for about 2 rounds prior to you even getting in range with that 18' devourer. Dakkafex finally finds his range and sits in cover most likely recieving a wound or two along the way. Marine player can then decide to either move into rapid fire range or to move back out of the Dakkafex's range. Now Dakka fex has to decide whether to move back into range leaving his cover or stay put and recieve incoming plas/las every round and recieve a cover save. Theory hammer is great but on the actual table top range with mobility make it a whole other game. The only time a shoot out scenario like this would happen is if the Fex is camped out on the objective.

Lemartes

I am not going to take advice from a guy who thinks lasguns are effective against Monsterous Creatures, or Monsterous Creatures are the equivalent of Tanks.

I don't need you to tell me to Play Better. My tournament record at GTs is far better than your local 'FLAGS' tournaments.

I personally have no problems playing against Godzilla nids. I don't need to play better, I have no complaints playing agianst them.  I like playing against tough armies and never dock my opponents on softscores for having a tough list.

Others clearly do think Godzilla Nids are powergaming. They are the ones that ripped him on his softscores.

Effectively is accurate because every weapon in the game can put wounds on a base carnifex. Tell me which ones cannot wound T6. It's called ROF. If you take 30-60 las guns hits you will recieve wounds that you have to save against. As for the GT I guess you can pee farther than me or just have the means to attend. I am sorry and I'll stop picking.(Trolling if you like)

By any chance do you think swimming is an effective way of crossing the Atlantic Ocean also?

Sure if you are Prince Namor.

- Greenie

Posted By Tau-Cent on 02/02/2007 7:01 AM
9 lascannons? I would still bet on 6 Carnifexes.

Did you bother to do any math to back up this claim, or are you just going to ignore the math like you did in your response on the relative survivability of AV 13 skimmers and AV 14 ground vehicles?

9 lascannons at BS 4 will cause an average of 5 wounds on a T7, 2+ save Carnifex, 3.33 if they are sitting in 5+ cover.  Now, if we're just dealing with 6 man las/plas squads, then six of those will cause 5.78 wounds at 24" out of cover, or 8.22 inside rapid fire range.  It's impossible to have more than 30 Carnifex wounds, so they should be able to deal with most of them.

I'm not sure why some people both complain that tanks don't have enough survivability, and then also complain that survivable tank equivalents are too powerful.

@ Lemartes

It takes 108 Bolter Shots to kill a T6 3+ save Carnifex.  So imagine this impossible scenario:

10 Man Tactical Squad vs. Dakkafex, cleanse mission (at least 18" apart), no cover, and the Marines get first turn.

Turn 1

Marines: 10 shots at carnifex

Dakkafex: moves forward and has a stroke: can't shoot or assault

Turn 2

Marines: move forward, 20 shots at carnifex

Dakkafex: trying to recover from stroke: can't move, shoot, or assault

Turn 3

Marines: 20 shots at carnifex

Dakkafex: after recovering from stroke, has explosive diarrhea: too embarrassed to move, shoot, or assault

Turn 4

Marines: 20 shots at carnifex

Dakkafex: cleaning up mess: no time to move, shoot, or assault

Turn 5

Marines: 20 shots at carnifex

Dakkafex: takes a shower: no time to move, shoot, or assault

Turn 6

Marines: 20 shots at carnifex

Dakkafex: slips in shower, lands on its head, dies.

The point of this sad little story is that only under the most ideal situation (i.e. your opponent lets you win) would a 10 Man Tactical Squad ever be able to put out enough bolter shots in 6 turns to be able to kill a Dakkafex, and that is just barely with 110 shots total.  Even if they get to double tap the entire game for 120 shots, they still take 6 turns to kill it.  If the Dakkafex shoots back it wins because every turn of shooting kills 2 Marines.

Before you go on about how it wouldn't be like that, the squad would have support, or a lascannon, or a plasmagun, remember that the point of the argument is that bolters are not effective against Godzilla.  The "ROF" that you need to be effective is possible only if your opponent wants you to win.