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Mauleed, yours fail to take into account Salamanders players.

 

Both of them.

I planned on making my marines Salamanders, but never got around to painting them before their fluff was eradicated. Thank the Emperor I was too lazy not to use plain grey plastic.

Actually I would have prefered to see two multi meltas and one plasma cannon. Multi meltas are good for the job, same price as a missile launcher now (Sallies used to pay 15pts) and the zone of fear 12" radius even one of these has against players with tank armies is worth missing S9 for.

Ok you are stuffed at Avatar sniping, but multi-meltas were not intended as a complete replacement of las/plas

You actually intend to field walking marines with Multi-meltas?

No point in continuing the debate further.

I bet your car has the dealer installed undercoating, and you felt it was a good deal too.

If I didn't have undercoating on my car, the fumes from the confarbulose in the asphalt would rustify it.

Mauleed, have you been even reading my posts?

Your whole arguement against me is "a reasonable person wouldn't buy a Multi-melta"? Are you stupid?

All my comments where about the value of what you are getting now versus what the Devestator Box set gives you. Which, as pointed out, is a deal. What you get versus paying for it now is a drop. There is no other way to see it. The math doesn't lie.

I even stated the downsides in my initial posts. Yes, people are getting extranious heavy wepons, and yes the loss of the heavy weapon blister is stupid.

But is a strict value of what you get in the box set, you can't leave heavy weapons that are "useless" out. Forget the game for a second and actually look at what you are getting.

And just because a foot mounted Multi-melta is useless, doesn't mean people aren't going to use it. Hell, I have seen lists that include one or two of them do real well in GT's and RTT's. I wouldn't field it, but that doesn't mean some people don't fit them into their play style won't ever find a use for them.

And beside, even if you only get 2 Lascannons, 2 Heavy Bolters, and 1 Missle Launcher out of the deal that's still roughly 50 dollars worth of heavy weapons for 45.

Look, if you can't even fully express your arguement, I don't know why anybody would take you seriously in this matter.

Mahu, you are responding to textbook Mauleed baiting. Let it go.

Am I the only one going to buy this set? I can now make a dev squad, and kit out my two tac squads with heavy bolters. Sounds alright to me.

How many vets have lascannons and heavy bolters lying around?

I would definitely buy it if I didn't already have two Marine armies. Should Space Wolves rules come out that I like, I'll probably buy some then.



I dunno, maybe not many? I used to just order the bitz for making them in sets of five or so. Then I'd use the ones I needed, and have others laying around. I figured other people had spare parts. I just find that with all the Marines I've built over the years, I have tons of extra bitz.

I have a question, and two quick points.

Can you build all five devs to hold heavys, or is the sergeant solely a sergeant? It's minor, but getting five heavies out of the box is, of course, better than merely having four.

Point 1: has anybody every considered using plasma cannons and multi-meltas as plasma guns and meltas? It wouldn't be strictly wysiwyg, but it'd look cool, and those bitz are bound to be incredibly cheap. Obviously you woulnd't want to mix the two types in one army, but it still seems like one possible use for the models.

Point 2: while math of course includes the gathering of data and the decision making rubric of what numbers to use, I think most people associate math most directly to arithmetic.

I haven't checked Mahu's arithmatic, but if he made a mistake, it's in his premises (which are essential to logic, and those, techincally math.) Deriding his math skills would be an overly broad statement.

IMO, the box presents to about 90% of gamers the followings value: 2 lascannon devs, 2 heavy bolter devs, and one sgt/Missile launcher dev, plus some interesting but essentially valueless bitz. Given a current cost of roughly $45 for that lineup with current blisters, plus a sgt or ML from a tac squad, the new box is essentially no net savings. In essence, we're trading flexibility for a minor/no savings and some new bitz. As others have pointed out, this box set is great for somebody building a complete army, but it is less good for a veteran gamer adding a single heavy weapon to an old army.

While this is certianly yet another decision by GW to favor "new" gamers over "veterans," I would wager that very few veterans depend on GW stores or mail order for their purchases. I'd further state that between online retailers, FLGS, battlewagon, and the booming secondary market, not to mention old fashioned bitz trading, Vets will have little to now difficulty gaining the exact model they want. I'll certianly miss having the blister on the wall, much like I miss the old assault weapon marine blister, but I'll roll with it heartily.

Mahu, your math sucks because you didn't compare it to just buying what you actually needed in blisters. Sure, this box is better than the crappy present devestator box. But who was buying that anyway? The same people that think multimeltas on their marines are a good idea, right?

To me the value is not in how many heavy weapons you get for the $ (even then the math is close enough that it is a non-issue), but in that they are PLASTIC.

Well it's tough to argue with that.

I redid some of my heavy weapons, and for the lascannons I used the guard ones. Ridiculously expensive, but who cares about money, right?

I don't want to put words in Maueed's mouth, but perhaps this is the point he's trying to make:
"While the Dev box may be a deal to you for its "value", it is not a "value" to me because it eliminates choice and gives me things I simply doesn't use or need."

Even free crap is still crap.

Then the problem isn't in my math, it's your opinion of what the boxed set has to offer.

I already said almost everthing you have been saying, just I wanted to actually compare the value of the box set itself. Something that you would rather dismiss, because it doesn't fit into your opinion of what you want out of it.

Besides, count all the Heavy Weapon Marines you have in your Army currently and compare how much it would cost if you built your army with the blisters or if you built it with the new Devestator box set and see what happens.

But I agree, the loss of blisters has to be the single dumbest thing that GW is moving towards. I bet the majority of money I wasted towards GW has been one-off blister purchases that I thought was just cool.

But the concept of the Devestator boxed set, and the loss of blisters are two different subjects. Though one may lead to another, is there any proof that the Heavy Weapon blisters are going the way of the dodo, or is that an assumption. I know it has been documented that GW is moving away from blisters but has it been confirmed in this situation.

I personally like the Devestator Boxed Set. I am one that goes from one army to another, so when I get around to starting a new Space Marine Army, I know that the majority of my heavy weapons purchases come down to two boxed sets.

Well I care enough that I will carry on just fine with all the metal ones I have currently. If (when) I ever start over, again, plastic all the way dog!

Posted By mauleed on 02/08/2007 6:32 AM

You actually intend to field walking marines with Multi-meltas?

No point in continuing the debate further.

i thought Mahu was your victim today Mauleed, well if he doesnt taste nice and you want to try chew something else...

1. Didn't I mention the army was to be Salamanders (it isnt now)..

2. Didn't I mention that Multi meltas are NOT a replacemernt for las/plas in general.

That aside an army with multi-melta tacticals doesnt 'suck' it just doesn't squeeze every last drop of point effectiveness. you seem to forget that their is room between the two. A marine army could afford a bit of variety without destroying its chances of winning, swapping out a lascannon for a multi-melta somewhere does not equate to doom.

Playing devils advocate here, yes you do get +d6 at short range, Ap1 and a 5pt discount, but S9 and 36" range make up for that. Back in V3.0 it was a real sacrifce to have to use multi-meltas for Sallie tacticals, but the pill has become much sweeter since with auto penetrating and the price drop.

Regardless, I would rather field three lascannon tacticals and a multi-melta than four lascannon, and probably would even if the price went back to 15pts. Because I hate boring munch two tone armies.

I think the plasma cannon models look cool too, but I draw the line on adding them to an army. Were I advocating using them you would have a valid window of complaint - and I would deserve what I get. But multi-meltas do ok by me.

Posted By Polonius on 02/08/2007 8:58 AM
I have a question, and two quick points.

Can you build all five devs to hold heavys, or is the sergeant solely a sergeant? It's minor, but getting five heavies out of the box is, of course, better than merely having four.

Point 1: has anybody every considered using plasma cannons and multi-meltas as plasma guns and meltas? It wouldn't be strictly wysiwyg, but it'd look cool, and those bitz are bound to be incredibly cheap. Obviously you woulnd't want to mix the two types in one army, but it still seems like one possible use for the models.

Think of it like a standard marine boxset. You have five marine bodies, and six pairs of legs - the extra pair are kneeling. Then you get enough shoulders and heads for the entire unit of five.

Which arms and armament you add to which is up to you. You clould make them all standard bolter tacticals (if you got the bolters that are left over from every other boxset and equip another eight marines with the weapons provided.

Assault marines have a different pose to the rest and reinforced 'harness' chestpieces. But the other power armour plastic multipose kits: Commander, tactical squad, command squad, combat squad and devastator squad boxsets are fully interchangeable.

On Point 1 - Not recommended, hough combi weapons are a good choice for this, and nobody wants to use them.

Posted By Orlanth on 02/08/2007 1:20 PM

Playing devils advocate here, yes you do get +d6 at short range, Ap1 and a 5pt discount, but S9 and 36" range make up for that. Back in V3.0 it was a real sacrifce to have to use multi-meltas for Sallie tacticals, but the pill has become much sweeter since with auto penetrating and the price drop.

Um, I'm confused. Multi-Meltas are S8 with a 24" range. When used by footsloggers, they're incredibly easy to either avoid or to eliminate from range without fear of reprisal shots. No vehicle will allow you to get into range unless your opponent is stoned or deviates badly when deepstriking/podding.

They can serve somewhat as area denial if you infiltrate them into cover, but that's about it.

Posted By blue loki on 02/08/2007 1:45 PM

Um, I'm confused. Multi-Meltas are S8 with a 24" range. When used by footsloggers, they're incredibly easy to either avoid or to eliminate from range without fear of reprisal shots. No vehicle will allow you to get into range unless your opponent is stoned or deviates badly when deepstriking/podding.

They can serve somewhat as area denial if you infiltrate them into cover, but that's about it.

Basically true but...If the paper range of 48" was the difference between shooting and not shooting noone would pay extra for 24" plasma guns. If we argue that plasma guns are anti-infantry firepower with two/three quality shots, you get the same with a multi-melta. The very way las/plas is deployed speaks against you here.

This is the essential 'truth' that makes multi-melta acceptable.

The main problem is not so much 24" range, but S8. Whicle it is technically S9 as you get the same chance to penetrate you lose the extra 1:6 glancing hit.

Short range firepower overcomes this to some extent buit as you have pointed out noone will get within 12" of a multi-melta by choice unless they have a monolith or eldar. You can play on that - which was my original point on the previous page.  The real downside to this is that most armies no longer have heavy vehicles that cross the board. Defilers sometimes try, and Land Raiders (which are rare due to their stupid price tag). Thats about it really. So a multi-melta doesnt get to play scary very often.

The other trouble is that Multi-Meltas are near useless against tough targets like Monoliths and not very good against Falcons. The stuff you'd want them against, you can't use them against.

All very interesting, but game stuff aside how about this:

Plastic is easier to work with than metal!

Yay! That alone makes me want them, just like the terminators. Furthermore: new designs are more refined than old ones, I like the precision of plastic die cut kits better than sculpted ones anyway, it makes the figures have a better proportion and standardized look. Plastic figures also travel better and wear better too.

Face it, it's a better product, be happy!

I don't care what they cost, $40, $45, $50, whatever, hobbies are expensive.

Don't underestimate the value here. The other day I was playing Tau against Marines, and the other guy had a Crusader get immobilized in a forest. Even though it wasn't going anywhere, it had a 12" radius around it, in which my Hammerheads just couldn't go. Due to the arrangement of the terrain, I really had no way of getting after his army with that two foot wide circle there.

There's no question that a Lascannon is the Marines simplest and most flexible way to kill armor, but a Multi-Melta that hits pretty much always Penetrates (or at least rolls a Pen that gets downgraded).

I don't think I'd take a MM on a Tactical squad, but it's not that far from consideration. If the rules or costs shifted somewhat, as the DA Codex does, the MM could be a useful weapon in a hurry. Think about 5 Marines sitting in a forest, assuring that you can't bring a tank within 12" of it, and probably shouldn't come within 24"?  Drop them 12" up, using one of the 35 point Rhinos, so no need to Infiltrate.

Not as good as Las/Plas, sure, but when the rules prohibit you from taking Las/Plas...

www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php

Sprue pictures up on warseer.

Even better thasn I had hoped. Servo skulls - and all the best stuff on one sprue.

Wow folks. They put the Multi-melta and the Missile Launcher (the two HWs people need the least) on one sprue, and the Lascannons and Heavy Bolters (and oh yeah, the Plasma Cannons) on the other one. Very nice.


And even if they discontinue the blisters of HW troopers, you'd still be able to mail order them (albeit at an increased price).

And a Power Fist...

Not bad GW. Ed may not be impressed, but I am. If only you'd released this years ago.

I have to admit, that's a sharp looking kit. After the scouts I was starting to worry about GW plastics, but these are really pretty sweet. Why on earth anybody would need two plasma cannons is beyond me, but they'll make great conversion fodder (a topic that seems to have gone unmentioned.) You could build a DIY demolisher now, with plenty of MM and PC bitz for magnetized sponsons. They'll look great as battlefield rubble, and every ork player (both of them left....) have to be excited about new weapons to look. I'm going to miss the flexibility, but this is a sharp new kit.

Color me not impressed either. What is up with all the split barrels? To make them hollow? Do people no know how to use a pin vise to drill the barrels out? This kind of poor kit engineering is what baffles me. This makes me glad to have bitz ordered the LC & HB bitz I wanted instead of waiting for this... kit to come out.

I do like the extra bitz and wut nots on the ML/MM sprue, but not enough to get over a) the sticker shock b) craptacular multi part gun barrels (wtf?) c) that it's GW plastic riddled with unsightly injection pins and poor molding. d) death of being able to order exactly what you want instead of paying for extra options you never asked for.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 02/08/2007 10:04 PM
Color me not impressed either. What is up with all the split barrels? To make them hollow? Do people no know how to use a pin vise to drill the barrels out? This kind of poor kit engineering is what baffles me. This makes me glad to have bitz ordered the LC & HB bitz I wanted instead of waiting for this... kit to come out.

I do like the extra bitz and wut nots on the ML/MM sprue, but not enough to get over a) the sticker shock b) craptacular multi part gun barrels (wtf?) c) that it's GW plastic riddled with unsightly injection pins and poor molding. d) death of being able to order exactly what you want instead of paying for extra options you never asked for.

You're complaining about having to glue barrels together? I'm sorry but IMO that seems pretty trite. Yes, they could have included them as a single piece without a hollow barrel, but why not do them this way so we don't *have* to drill them out (plastic moulding requires separate pieces if you want an interior hollow area)? I think its a whole lot easier to glue to pieces together than it is to drill out a barrel.

It's become pretty clear that you're so jaded with GW at this point they'd have to send a Thai hooker over to your house along with the new box set for you to be impressed by it.

(High GW price aside) I personally think this is a fantastic new release for Marine players.