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Doesn't look bad at all to me. Nothing a few years of putting Tamiya tank model barrels together didn't teach me.

Posted By Phryxis on 02/11/2007 5:46 PM

I'm not begrudging anyone for being happy that a plastic set is finally out, but it's a poorly engineered one with unavoidable defects that we are being asked to pay a premium for. No thanks.

You remind me of those commercials for the special screwdrivers or can openers that purport revolutionize the process of driving screws and opening cans. They always open with some guy trying to operate a screw driver, and a voiceover guy says something like "tired of clumsy, conventional screwdrivers?" Then the guy in the picture makes some exaggerated, clumsy motion and then grabs his wrist in pain. "All those strained wrists and battered knuckles, OUCH!"

Yeah, wow. I'm always getting severely injured when I try to operate a screwdriver. Thank GOD for the Handi-zip Roto Drive.

It's like you're willing to be totally slowed around styrene cement, just to make your point. How hard is it to assemble a plastic model correctly? Hint: Not hard.

Somehow you're a total whiz with a pin vise, and you can drill out a barrel like shooting fish in said barrel, but when it comes to getting a decent fit, flowing in a bit of liquid cement, then giving it a once over with a file, it's the most incredible trial and impossibility ever.

I can count the times I've needed putty or green stuff to assemble an uncustomized GW model on one hand, and every one of them was a metal model.

Look... Both plastic and metal are going to have mold lines and imperfections to clean. The metal seamlines are harder and more time consuming to deal with, simply because metal is harder. If you have no trouble with metal, then you have no trouble with plastic. It's the same skillset, only easier.

I can count the times I've needed putty or green stuff to assemble an uncustomized GW model on one hand, and every one of them was a metal model.

Edit:  I thought back, and I realized I did do some putty fills on my Devilfish/Hammerheads.

Another steaming pile of idiocy from the forum's trolling angry incompetent! Good grief, you're like the mildly slowed guy in some slapstick movie that gets all over excited about going outside and in his exuberance runs smack dab into the door jamb/a telephone pole/some other obvious immobile object and knocks himself out.

Because, you know, you have to be a total wiz to competently use a pin vise to... drill a hole. Whoah. So hard! "RonCo, won't you make this easy for meeee! I am so incompetent at using a tinty hand held drill, can yew split the barrelz?!?! (instead of casting them in one peice?!?) ZOMG itz SO hard to drill a hole with a hand held drill!!!"

Then you go on to make retardedly easy to refute claims that you refute yourself! In addition to the Devilfish & Hammerheads see also: Land Speeders, Land Raiders, Leman Russ, Chimeras, Monolith, and many others I'm sure people have had problems with GW's poorly engineered kits. Oh, and as that MM fella illustrates (and as I already mentioned but you chose to ignore in your rush), there are cracks (on the inside diameter) where the plastic doesn't even meet, which to fix, will require puttying (and drilling out with a pin vise!).

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 02/11/2007 10:38 PM


Then you go on to make retardedly easy to refute claims that you refute yourself! In addition to the Devilfish & Hammerheads see also: Land Speeders, Land Raiders, Leman Russ, Chimeras, Monolith, and many others I'm sure people have had problems with GW's poorly engineered kits. Oh, and as that MM fella illustrates (and as I already mentioned but you chose to ignore in your rush), there are cracks (on the inside diameter) where the plastic doesn't even meet, which to fix, will require puttying (and drilling out with a pin vise!).

Anyone who has put together a land speeder knows that you need a sharp knife, green stuff, eleastic band and a serious quantity of foul language to curse the parentage of the people who designed the moulds.

The thing that irrates me is that people defend badly designed models and general incompetance by saying "it is a modelling hobby". Yes it is, but raising my blood pressure dealing with incompetance isn't my idea of a hobby .... so why do I keep drifting back to 40k ... some deep sense of inadequacy, low self esteem and need to punish myself?  Maybe it is in the vain hope that one day I will play a game with a fully painted army and NO RULE DISPUTES!!!! Sorry, just pinched myself as punishment.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 02/11/2007 10:38 PM

Another steaming pile of idiocy from the forum's trolling angry incompetent! Good grief, you're like the mildly slowed guy in some slapstick movie that gets all over excited about going outside and in his exuberance runs smack dab into the door jamb/a telephone pole/some other obvious immobile object and knocks himself out.

If that isn't a case of the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. There's a reason why Dakka is the laughing stock of the community, and it's got a lot to do with the brain-dead morons posting within it.

While kit quality by itself isn't really a problem, charging a premium price for the "Porsche" of miniatures which require massive amounts of work to construct is what drives the customers batty. Even the cheap Chinese BEN-DI knockoff Bandai kits don't generally need gap filling and elastic bands.

That would be like buying a BMW and then finding out that you need to do a lot of non-warranty work yourself to get the engine back to full performance.

So, let me get this straight: I have the honesty to admit to an exception to a general rule I've experienced in making GW models, and that makes me an idiot? Should I be more like you, and just spout selective vision as objective fact?

I've built hundreds, if not thousands, of plastic GW models and figures, from Space Marines to Crisis Suits, to Ork Trukks to Leman Russes, etc. etc. etc. On two of them I decided to use some squadron putty to fill in a seam. And you're gloating, and doing a cut rate impersonation of a flame...

On the first two Devilfish bodies I built, I filled a join on the side of the hull. On subsequent models, I knew it needed attention, and I was able to prep the model better and avoid the need for the fill. Somehow that totally invalidates all my claims, and makes me a dolt? No... It proves that I'm aware of the use of filler putty, I'm capable of using it when necessary, and yet I've needed it in only a tiny percentage of the builds I've done with GW models.

By comparison, I've also built many, many scale model aircraft, and I became used to filling, sanding, re-scribing panel lines. It was simply a given on every single kit, that the wing root would need work.



No, you don't. It's a very simple task, comparable to, though probably more time consuming and error prone, than doing a little file work to clean up seamlines.

I'm not saying that drilling out gun barrels is hard. It's just one of the many minor skills in building model kits. I'm simply pointing out that you're willfully obtuse when it comes to applying this skillset to plastic kits, and a total savant when it comes to metal kits. Drilling gun barrels? Why you can do that in your sleep, in a matter of picoseconds! Filing off a seamline? What a chore! How time consuming!



Is that your engineering degree speaking again? Or is that just an arrogant art history major speaking out of his depth? I wish I had some experience with the kits you're talking about... I mean, I've only built 3 Land Speeders, a Land Raider, 3 Leman Russes, 2 Chimeras and a Monolith. How would I have any idea what a struggle those kits are, having only built ten of the specific ones you're complaining about?

Do you need a winky face to understand that I'm being sarcastic?

The worst fit problems I've had were with metal on plastic kits (like the Exorcist), and Forgeworld addon kits (like the Vindicator). Even these could be taken care of with some prefitting, filing and other prep work.

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 02/11/2007 10:38 PM

Another steaming pile of idiocy from the forum's trolling angry incompetent! Good grief, you're like the mildly slowed guy in some slapstick movie that gets all over excited about going outside and in his exuberance runs smack dab into the door jamb/a telephone pole/some other obvious immobile object and knocks himself out.

Black!  Black!  That kettle is black, I say!!!!

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 02/11/2007 10:38 PM
In addition to the Devilfish & Hammerheads see also: Land Speeders, Land Raiders, Leman Russ, Chimeras, Monolith, and many others I'm sure people have had problems with GW's poorly engineered kits. Oh, and as that MM fella illustrates (and as I already mentioned but you chose to ignore in your rush), there are cracks (on the inside diameter) where the plastic doesn't even meet, which to fix, will require puttying (and drilling out with a pin vise!).

Meh. I didn't really have trouble with Leman Russ or Chimeras. The Land Raider is a bit tricky - but I got it working. I eventually dumped my Land Speeder for bits -  but it was the first vehicle model I ever assembled.

I don't think they're poorly engineered for model kits.

Compared to WM's Warjacks, Russes and Chimeras are dreams to assemble. The amount of work required to clean up GW plastic models compares favourably to the amount of time needed to trim flash from Confrontation models. Reaper models seem to be a bit better in my experience, but within the same general range.

As for the Multi-Melta, I'd need to actually use the kit in person to judge how it actually is. Plugging gaps with Green Stuff is super-easy and pretty much expected with multi-part models. I had to do so in three places in the Retribution Battleship I assembled last night. It wasn't especially traumatic.

Posted By Asmodai on 02/12/2007 8:40 AM

Compared to WM's Warjacks, Russes and Chimeras are dreams to assemble. 

What you talkin' about, Willis?

I actually find Warjacks and Russes equally easy/complicated to put together. Different skill sets (drilling/pinning vs. filling/filing) but comparable.

Oh, and in before lock, by the way.   

I find drilling and pinning a fit more difficult - but that may come from later of experience more than the innate difficulty.

Full head of hair...wow!

If I didn't already have a bangin' sig, I'd sig what you just said.

Phyrixis, you are wrong.

Wait, wait wait... so you mean to tell me that all those models I have built are HARD? Oh darn,... I guess I better stop buying and building them then. Thank you for informing me, otherwise I would have never known.

Land Speeders seemed pretty simple to me. A few rubber bands and some glue. So what was the issue again?

Many Land Speeders are warped so the hulls don't match up. This means that you either have to fill up the gaps with green stuff and a lot of filing - and still end up with it slightly uneven from side to side, or melt and partially recast part of the plastic.

About what?



Certainly it's not a perfectly fitting kit, but that's why you test fit. Warped parts are a hassle, but they can be bent back, they can be clamped, etc.

Perhaps my standards are just different. When you assemble a GW kit, they seem to make a consistent effort to place seams in places that are easily accessed with a file, knife or sand paper. This is why I scoff at Nyarlathotep's claims of "poor engineering." Try sanding the joint at the wing root of a WWII era scale model kit. You're trying to get into a concave shape, and sand the bottom of it. It's virtually impossible to get after it without hitting much of the surrounding surface. Also, the joints are between curved surfaces, and are often designed to follow a real panel line on the actual aircraft, so they're often curving in more than one dimension. By comparison, joints on GW kits tend to be straight lines, easily accessed for work, if needed.

So, ok, I'm sure that assembling and prepping a GW kit is harder than, say, not assembling or prepping it... But what are you comparing these kits to? I've built a lot of scale model kits in my life, and while there are certainly better detailed, higher quality kits available than what GW produces, there's really nothing that's any easier to build, without being a snap together type kiddie-kit. GW kits tend to be chunky, simple, easy things to assemble. I'm just not sure how it could be any easier, and still require assembly at all.

I must've gotten my speeders from the same batch Asmodai did. Perhaps this is all a simple case of YMMV.

I purchased and assembled four at the same time and they were all horrible. All required excessive trimming, not for mold lines, but for simple fitting. All required a healthy amount of greenstuff to fill in gaps. And all required the clamp treatment for nearly every join.


I love assembling miniatures in general, in fact it may very well be my favorite part of the hobby. I could sit and glue 40k and Hordes all day long. I also enjoy fixing and modifying minis with greenstuff, magnets, modular components, etc...

But those speeders tested the very edge of my patience. So much so that I probably will not be adding any to my Ravenwing when the new Codex comes out, even though I'd really love to.


(I also hate the new split barrels. I can deal with it, but I'd much rather drill 'em than have to deal with a gap.)

And I never had issues with Land Speeders. Glue, wrap rubber bands. Then when dry, glue and wrap rubber bands. Even when warped a little that worked. Just had to do it in stages. A lot like the tank kits I have worked on in the past.

It's funny coming from Nyarlathotep when he is always coming up with scratch building ways to do GW models. Seems like that is a bit more work to do some kit bashing.....

Posted By Agamemnon2 on 02/12/2007 6:59 AM
If that isn't a case of the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. There's a reason why Dakka is the laughing stock of the community, and it's got a lot to do with the brain-dead morons posting within it.

I think your Irony Detector may be in need of maintenance...

Posted By Phryxis on 02/12/2007 10:43 AM

Perhaps my standards are just different. When you assemble a GW kit, they seem to make a consistent effort to place seams in places that are easily accessed with a file, knife or sand paper. This is why I scoff at Nyarlathotep's claims of "poor engineering." Try sanding the joint at the wing root of a WWII era scale model kit. You're trying to get into a concave shape, and sand the bottom of it. It's virtually impossible to get after it without hitting much of the surrounding surface. Also, the joints are between curved surfaces, and are often designed to follow a real panel line on the actual aircraft, so they're often curving in more than one dimension. By comparison, joints on GW kits tend to be straight lines, easily accessed for work, if needed.

I'd rather they'd place their seams as far from sight as possible instead of their current "in your face!" approach. Then again, GW model part counts are so low there's often no real alternative. In their priorities, making them easily-built is more important than considerations like placement of seams and mould lines.

i have to agree with the speeders weren't too bad camp here.

I built four in the space of a few months.

No elastic (rubber) bands and a good bit of glue done the trick for me.

No green stuff either.

I found metal devs and hurricane bolter sponsons far worse.

Posted By Asmodai on 02/12/2007 9:38 AM
I find drilling and pinning a fit more difficult - but that may come from later of experience more than the innate difficulty.

Nah, it's because you're weak. j/k.  

Where are these mythical landspeeders? Really?

I have never encountered any modeller that has found these "a breeze" to assemble.

I know alot of really good military modellers, one who even worked for the heavy metal team at one point, and it seems everyone I have talked to has unnanimously agreed that landspeeders are the worst plastic kit (as far as ease of assembly and lack of major filling and modifications to make it work) that GW has ever produced.

So where do you people by these mythical kits at? I would love to have just one land speeder that does not require a huge effort to simply assemble, let alone correctly align.

Games Workshop: Space Marine Landspeeder - $30 USD

Phryxis: H'ok. So let me get this straight. You're saying that landspeeders go together fine with some rubberbands, clamps, filling, sanding and putty.

You are directly comparing aircraft kits to the landspeeder.  Aircraft kits have VERY thin plastic components, so it might stand to reason that this might cause more warpage than the 2-3mm thick components that GW uses...?

Does the fact that aircraft models need filling absolve GW from providing minimal warpage?

No problem. Let's look at other kits in that price range...

Bandai: MG RX-78-2 Gundam (Ver 1.5) - $32 USD
Tamiya: 1/35 Panzer Mk.IV Ausf.J - $30 USD
Fine Moulds: Jedi Starfighter - $22 USD (http://www.hlj.com/product/FNMSW-03)

Let's take it from the top:

MG Gundam kit (Did not build this pariticular MG, but others in the series) - rock solid assembly. Requires little sanding, almost no gap filling. Poly Caps for smooth articulation. Plastic is of tough ABS variety. Excellent finish out of the box. Plastic components are about 1mm thick with NO warpage.

Tamiya (Did not build this pariticular kit, but based off other Tamiya armor kits): Crisp fine detail. Some cleanup required. Possibly some warpage in the hull components. Minor filling needed. Plastic components are about 1mm thick.

FineMoulds: Very little flash, went together very smoothly. Needed no filling. Lots of fine detail.

Games Workshop Landspeeder: This is a poor example as it is one of the worst GW kits for warpage despite having pieces between 2-3mm thick. Lots of gap filling and clamping needed due to LATERAL twisting of the hull. - Poor design IMO - YMMV The Rhino is a better comparison with pieces between 2-3mm thick, usually little warpage that can be fixed by clamping the hull bits together. No gap filling necessary. It is clearly designed for durability, and as a result, iit has no fine details.

The fact of the matter is:

Games Workshop kits are -usually- no worse off to build than other kits. I have taken into account kit durability. The Gundam MG in particular is fairly durable, and can survive some hefty "playing/posing" sessions while making sci fi noises, but won't survive being thrown against a wall (not many kits will). The Jedi Starfighter as well is fairly robust. The Tamiya tank probably won't survive regular wargaming sessions with its loads of fine details, but is in the list for price comparisons only.

So, in conclusion, build-up wise, GW's pretty average. As a "luxury" branded item, they come across as very primitive compared to their other plastic model brethern, and very expensive for what you get.

While we are off topic I must add that my landspeeder has had filler and filing done on it, but it was not memorably difficult, quite the opposite really.

The only kit I ever have a memory of difficulty making it is the Vindicator. Ols school Rhino parts with metal pieces that do not fit. Mine is not so much assembled as extensively converted.

Landspeeders never made too much sense to me. If the imperium has antigrav tech to that level, why not give it to gaurd?

But anyways. The new box looks like another step in the plasticafying of all GW products, which I agree with.
It's also another re-release of a space marine unit, which makes me want to puke onto my keyboard.

"Hmmmmm...we've got the dread, but give them a venerable dread too. Oh, and plastic scouts. And a new tactical squad. And plastic and metal terminators. And make some new plastic terminators too. And a new rhino. And 6 iterations of every character- I want a librarian, chaplain and force commander with every possible kit configuration, damnit! And an Iron Hands boxed set. Aaaaaannnd....oh, do some more characters. And all of the special characters too. Edit, we forgot to redo chapter variants! Get to it! And some new devastators! Did we forget anything?"
*Sculptors sit glazed and numbed by the sheer number of power armoured miniatures they must complete. Outside, a lone ork player presses his nose up to the cold, freezing glass and sheds a tear*

Posted By Da Boss on 02/12/2007 3:15 PM
"Hmmmmm...we've got the dread, but give them a venerable dread too. Oh, and plastic scouts. And a new tactical squad. And plastic and metal terminators. And make some new plastic terminators too. And a new rhino. And 6 iterations of every character- I want a librarian, chaplain and force commander with every possible kit configuration, damnit! And an Iron Hands boxed set. Aaaaaannnd....oh, do some more characters. And all of the special characters too. Edit, we forgot to redo chapter variants! Get to it! And some new devastators! Did we forget anything?"
*Sculptors sit glazed and numbed by the sheer number of power armoured miniatures they must complete. Outside, a lone ork player presses his nose up to the cold, freezing glass and sheds a tear*

EXALT!

It seems that some people are getting their arguements confused. This isn't a modeling skills pissing contest.

The problem at hand which I believe Nyarlathotep was addressing and which was further clarified by fullheadofhair and Keezus is that considering the premium prices GW asks us to pay, you'd think the product would be of a higher quality. For what they charge, we really shouldn't have to putty, sand and file as much as we do. These aren't garage kits ya know.

Like many of you, I've built kits by other manufacturers and yes, those airplanes and gundams needed filling and sanding on occasion to look their best (but rarely for basic assembly), and sometimes there was even some warpage. But when I compare the price of the kit VS. the damage control required to remedy flaws in a kit  my 25 years of kit building tells me that something is amiss with GW's product, pricing structure, attitude toward their customers, or all of the above. 

I expect to fill and file my gundams or whatever, but I don't mind because Bandai doesn't overprice their kits. So filling and filing is inevitable with GW kits? Fine. Start including files, putty, and spare blades with the kits, and maybe their prices will be justified.

Posted By Bob Lorgar on 02/11/2007 7:33 PM

Ok...perhaps I'm completely blind.

But wasn't there supposed to be a set of kneeling legs on one of those sprues?  Is it there somewhere and I'm just missing it?

The box comes with the Command Legs sprue, which has the kneeling legs.

Posted By Orlanth on 02/12/2007 2:47 PM
While we are off topic I must add that my landspeeder has had filler and filing done on it, but it was not memorably difficult, quite the opposite really.

The only kit I ever have a memory of difficulty making it is the Vindicator. Ols school Rhino parts with metal pieces that do not fit. Mine is not so much assembled as extensively converted.

Which just goes to show you. My Vindicator fit together perfectly. Everything snapped properly into place. It barely needed glue, let alone filler and filing.

Individual experience with each model will vary greatly.

Except for Land Raider Crusaders - I've not yet met a person who didn't find the sponsons a PITA to assemble.

The 2 landspeeders I've assembled were just glue/rubber band type. Got them from the 3e box set.

Well, sure, they're one of the tougher GW kits (along with Hammerhead/Devilfish), but they're still easy kits to build in the grand scheme of things. Something like a P-38, with all the crazy nacelles, fuselage parts, etc. etc. There's just no way a GW kit can compare. I can recall building scale aircraft kits that required more time just in sanding than I've ever spent on assembling any two GW kits.



The three I built went together fine. That's not to say they were a total breeze, but I got through them without any major issues.

Perhaps I'm just more patient than some? I have no problem with taking a warped piece, gluing down one side, letting it sit for two days until it's totally cured, and then clamping down the other side. If you're willing to take the time, take each seam one at a time, that's one way to deal with warped or poorly fitting parts. You fit what fits, get it cured and done, then make more fit.

You can also put some cyanoacrylate glue inside to lock a cemented seam in place, and move on from there. I use that technique a lot on Rhinos.

The one thing I learned from all the kits I've made over the years is to never be in a hurry. If you've GOT to get that Landspeeder done for the weekend, it's gonna show. If I'm going to put hours and hours of my time into a model, I'll wait till next weekend for it to be done so it's done right.



I don't think anybody here is going to debate that point. Compared to a top notch Dragon or Tamiya kit, GW's stuff is pretty primative and overpriced. But, then again, Tamiya isn't also publishing a game to support their product, they're not having to do artistic design on their products, and they're also (I assume) selling a much, much larger volume.

I'm not saying GW is a world leader in injection molded kits or value for price. I'm just saying their kits are quite easy to assemble as these things go.



The Exorcist is similar. I had to hack the crap out of the Rhino chassis to get the metal parts to mate up correctly.



I understand that's the argument that some are making. I'm not trying to brag up my modelling skills, I just don't understand how people can have so much trouble with GW's kits, so the argument doesn't make a ton of sense to me. As I asked before, what do people expect? In the absolute best case, every seam/join you've got is going to need a once over with a file/knife/sandpaper. Honestly, that's about how it goes for me when I build GW kits.

Heck, I just got done doing a pair of Falcons, and I can only think of two joins in the whole model that needed any sanding at all (the bottom rear of the hull to the main hull, and the engine exhausts). Thats hard?