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There is a difference between "criticism" and " bashing". There are a few people that are here only to do that.

Anyone that actually "likes" something GW puts out, is a "fanboi".
People that criticize are "haterz".

There can be a middle ground, but the internet tends to gravitate people to opposite poles.

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OK, all right..... Apparently I need get a little more in depth here..

"That, boys & girls, is called 'INFLATION' and there really isn't a lot any of us can do about it."

Compare GW price rises to the rate of inflation over the last ten years. Inflation is *not* a major part of GW price rises. Gas prices are also far more volatile than the normal consumer rate of inflation and made a bad comparison.

I wasn't making a comparison (and considering I graduated high school in 1987, it would be 20 years). I was, however pointing out the fact that due to rising fuel prices, etc. the cost of everything has gone up over the last 20 years. I still have GW models from the late 80's - early 90's that were lead pewter (which, by the way is not only illegal to use in the US of A, but quite a bit cheaper & easier on the molds). The point I was attempting to make is that, it simply costs more, all the way around, to produce everything, whether it is a loaf of bread, a new car, or a new GW model,

 

"They are in this business to make money and since they have been doing it for more than 2 decades, I'd say they are doing a good job, at least as far as that goes (and I don't want to hear about stock reports or values, it really doesn't matter to most of us)!"

If not profitability, what do you use as the criteria for 'making money'? If GW's stock collapses, then whether you say they're doing a good job or not, there won't be a company to produce the game (or, more likely, it'll be bought out by Hasbro and 40K will switch to the Clix system).

You're also a bit overly cynical. There are better ways to make money than the miniatures wargames industry and GW isn't really a monolithic company. Many of their employees could make more money in other fields. It's not far to say that an enjoyment of the game isn't a major part of GW's corporate mindset.

 GW has been around for quite a while now, and I don't honestly believe that even if thier stock collapsed, and they were picked up by Hasbro, etc., that the new owners would change the system as radically as you are suggesting.

As far as there being better ways to make money, there sure are! The bottom line, however, is that is what the people in charge of GW are there to do. They do have to answer to someone when it comes time to explain the figures at the end of the fiscal year. So, that combined with what can only be described as them losing touch with thier consumers (as far as the direction the systems are going), leads me to the conclusion which I pointed out. I love my job & I run a VERY successful tattoo studio in one of the most expensive areas of the USA, but if I walked in the door tomorrow and started tattooing for free, just because I love what I do, I'm reasonably sure that I wouldn't last very long. I, much like GW , and probably everyone else on this board, have bills to pay. So, as much as I love to tattoo, I am still in it to make money, unfortunately.

 "they'd realize that the magority of gamers can't afford to drop $300 on a new army"

Actually, I think most GW players can, and have spent that. My IG army cost way more than $300 (around double that actually).

Most of the people I've met over the years, have 1 or 2 armies. which they have peiced together, slowly, over time. It has been my experience that there are very few people like myself out there (I do know a few). I personally have over 7000 figures from GW, 15 playable armies of at least 1500 pts, with the magority of them exceeding 5000 pts, as well as forgeworld & armorcast extras. On more occasions than I would like to admit, I have dropped $300 - 400 in one shot, on a new army. I make excellent money ($250/hr) and am blessed that I can do this while keeping all of my other expenses taken care of. Please don't take this the wrong way, anyone, but how many GW hobby enthusiasts do you know that can say they can do the same?

"Here's my idea, instead of complaining constantly about the state of the GW empire, why don't we, the hobbyists, get together and offer them some solid suggestions on fixing the problems, instead of complaining constantly? Just my $.02..........."

People have offered suggestions. Quite helpful ones too. There's dozens of threads on this board alone full of them.

I 've read them.....but has anyone from GW read them?

Here's the paradox. You can't offer suggestions without criticizing. To offer a suggestion to fix what's broken, first you have to accept that it's broken.

Well, I'm not saying that it isn't broken, nor am I saying that critisism is a bad thing. What I am saying is that instead of the typical, witty banter about "how badly such n such has screwed up the latest codex", or "how could they possibly expect us to pay $XX for the new whatever", or "how do they expect me to build my super army if I can't have 15 of those nifty kill everything guns in my new army", why not drop the negativity and start something that would, potentially, make sense, and make a difference.

I, personally, really like the new DA stuff. I like the way the new codex is laid out, & I was really impressed with the new plastic (and metal) figs.

I really enjoy playing, collecting and painting GW games. I have no intention of stopping doing so - although I'm not collecting as much as I used to. (Which is 50% price and 50% having a two year or longer backlog of unpainted models).

I'm not going to close my eyes though and drink the Kool-Aid. If I see something I don't like (or something I like for that matter), I'll comment on it. You're free to care or not care as much as suits you.

As far as "closing your eyes and drinking the Kool-Aid", no one is asking you to. All I was trying to do was potentially rally a little support for a gaming system that we all love to some degree or another, and then maybe, just maybe, figure out a way to give it a push in the direction we'd like to see it go in.... My job's half done, if I already have your attention! Thanks!

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Posted By Toreador on 03/20/2007 9:41 PM
There is a difference between "criticism" and " bashing". There are a few people that are here only to do that.

Anyone that actually "likes" something GW puts out, is a "fanboi".
People that criticize are "haterz".

There can be a middle ground, but the internet tends to gravitate people to opposite poles.

Well if you reply to the "bashers" then you only lend credence to their statements.

Its best to just ignore the comments that are outright over the top and continue on with the discussion as if the comment was never said.

Thats how discussions that normally would be quite informative can remain on topic without a thread whose subject is about "why there is a distinct lack of rumours from GW" devolving into a discourse in the "difference between critique and bashing".

But hey, we all go off topic. I mean, this very post is a post regarding off topic posts....

I do also happen to agree that people generally gravitate towards diametrically opposed views.

Ahh, the Dark Angels Codex.

How absolutely uninspired. How totally ho-hum.

Now the rumors forums are speculating about the next big thing. Oh yes, a Blood Angels update in White Dwarf. Ooooh. Ahhh. What's next?

White Scars?

Crimson Fists?

Imperial Fists?

Blood Raven?

Rainbow Warriors?

Space marines and more space marines. It's GW's best sellers. So of course, in their infinite wisdom, it's all space marines, all the time. And it's killing the hobby.

Their business depends on variety. There was a local 40k Tournament this weekend. 9 of 14 players were Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines. It was absolutely boring.

Maybe they're finally realizing this and they're rethinking their business. Maybe that's why there aren't any new rumors.

The reason there are so many marines? People like marines. Blame the consumers.

Well.... AT-43 has some people at GW scratching their heads.... Allessio was overheard several times saying that if Rackham gets it going in full swing 40K for the first time will have some real competition. GW is not that igorant as some people want them to be.

And folks over here in Germany are more and more voting with their feet.... not one day goes by with not one 40K player switching to Warmachine or AT-43. Actually the local GW-Store closes this year for good.

Posted By Toreador on 03/20/2007 6:17 PM
Playing armchair company head works really well too..... we know little of what goes on behind the scenes.

 

Doesn't matter what goes on behind the scenes. That just ultimately amounts to excuses. What matters is what goes on in front of our eyes - and that is price rise, price rise, price rise and zero new game development.

 

Actually, I think most GW players can, and have spent that. My IG army cost way more than $300 (around double that actually).

I just dropped £117 on a Black Tree Design dwarf army, which isn’t far of $300.  That level I can accept.

GW want to charge me over twice that, for an army that would consist mainly of not-very-variable-pose plastics.  

Bite me, GW.

AT-43 might be an interesting and potentially competitive game for 40K, but not yet it isn't. YOu must not discount the fluff dude! Its all in the fluff.

As far as WHFB is concerned, I've never liked those miniatures, proportinally they are crapola! I think Rackhams fantasy miniatures way exceed GW in that respect!

The reason why Fantasy is doing better than 40k is simple - the ruleset has not been neutered like 40k.

Fantasy: Infantry have different movement rates
40k: Infantry has standardized movement (discounting jump infantry and bikes, since fliers and cavalry are more analogous)

Fantasy: Magic Phase
40k: Uh... some armies have Psykers?

Fantasy: Psychology
40k: Everyone has high Ld, easy ways to get high Ld, or don't use the Ld statistic.

Fantasy: Save modifiers
40k: AP system

I'm sure if everything in Fantasy had standardized movement, only a third of the armies had access to magic, everyone had high Ld or ignored psychology, and most weapons killed outright (or not at all), then Fantasy would be about as successful as 40k V4.

... but Fatasy duznt have Spase Marinez! How can you lik a game taht dunt have marinz?



In fact, I have a hard time thinking of any army in WHFB that has the same weight as Marines have in 40K. Chaos used to, but not so much anymore. At my FLGS, there are some Tau, some IG, and a couple of Necron players, but a good 80 to 90% of the armies are marines (either Impi or Chaos); while almost every fantasy player has a different army. Admittedly, there aren't as many WHFB players as there are 40K players, either; but I personally own 9 different armies of 2000 points or more, and regularly switch between them. There really isn't one particular army that I feel is a certain, destroy-all-comers favorite.

Posted By Waaagh_Gonads on 03/20/2007 7:15 PM
snippity snippers

Suprisingly WHFB is going great guns here in Australia, has well written rules, excellent plastics and very competative, well rounded lists where close to every unit is acctually worth taking in the last few army books.

The 40k team needs to have a good look at what WHFB is doing right and jump on the bandwagon.

here's the catch gonads, there is no dedicated 40k or whfb team. they all share the work and do crossover quite frequently now. Or, at least that is what I heard. Maybe that is why it's getting a bit thin blooded.

I do dislike how 40k went. I think Chambers had some good ideas, and I hear there was a lot more to it, but I think overall 40k has been watered down too much. It is a lot faster play, and more forces can be put on the field, but it seems more limited tactically than it used to. There are a lot of things better with the rules than they used to be, but overall the game just doesn't "feel" as good as it used to.

And it's not because it isn't hero hammer. Never liked that anyway.

WHFB still has a stong following around here, but certain armies are a lot worse than others. High Elves and Dark Elves come to mind. There is a lack of balance in spots, but overall most of the lists can be competitive.

When I started playing, Squat bikers escorted my buddy's Dark Angels, who were supported by mole-mortars, all of which were taken out by vortex grenades of doom [/old fart]

While people are still playing fantasy moreso than 40k, are they buying the figs? Bombot (and Witterquick has made similar statements, along with N667) makes a valid point; a fantasy army can be had for cheaper than GW pricing. Even going with a mix (say, cheaper plastics for some units, and Brand X for others) turns out to be less expensive than a full-blooded citadel force.

Personally, I think what hurts the most is the entry price. I know they tried to fix that with BFSP and BFM, but most 40k and Fantasy players seem to want to do 1500-2000 (40k) or 2000+ (fantasy) sized armies. I'm sorry, but after the 100th goblin or 35th guardsman, it's easy to get frustrated, especially when both games de-emphasize list diversity (i.e. having lots of different kinds of units/guys). That's where games like AT-43 and Reaper's plastic may have GW beat...

Wait, how did we get on this topic? Okay, rumors...um...I heard Jervis was producing an Album with Rick Rubin, some kind of Souza-meets-The Game mash-up. Should be out around the same time they release plastic Valhallans. I hear the plastic baneblade will come with your choice of ring-tones: They Might Be Giants, Ashanti or Panic! At The Disco. There's some talk of having a cross-over game for WHFRP and White Wolf's Pimp: The Backhanding. You heard it here first!

Ennui people, ennui.

Maybe there are simply less rumours around because more of us are becoming cynical old tossers who don't give a fig any more?

Seriously who these days other than the die-hard fanboi gives a flying fig if Dark Pixies will get the Flying Crotch of Doom, or that The Emperor's Bum Boys will get +2 to their Ass Cannon?

It's all a bit "meh" nowadays...

Or maybe I'm just getting old and the mildew is finally getting to my brain?

I know, I know: "If you don;t like it so much get off the forum"....

I'm going, I'm going ...

You're a grumpy old fa...

Wait, nevermind.

Mmmmmm.. mole mortars. I still have my old thudd gun template...

I think the rumours are out there, but most right now are for WHFB. Most people aren't very excited about Apocolypse, as who really wants to play big games when they don't like to play the little games. Other than that there isn't much too get excited about for 40k as Chaos and Orks are a while off yet, though I know a lot of Ork players are as excited as a 24 hour party squig.

High Elf, Dark Elf and VC players are getting into quite a tizzy about their books being on the way, with rampant rumours flying around Warseer. But not many people care over here.

The price has always been a factor. I remember back in 1st edition when people complained that the 4 fig packs were $5 and how they could get Grenadier or Old Glory figs so much cheaper. There were always a lot of stand in figs. It's always been that way, and I don't think it will ever change.

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 8:30 AM
The price has always been a factor. I remember back in 1st edition when people complained that the 4 fig packs were $5 and how they could get Grenadier or Old Glory figs so much cheaper. There were always a lot of stand in figs. It's always been that way, and I don't think it will ever change.

Indeed.  But add many more years of inflation-busting price rises and more competitors emerging to gleefully scoop up the disgruntled gamer and you have a falling GW revenue line.

 

Man, I remember saying to my friend about 15 years ago that the only thing that will stop GW’s price rises is the emergence of some decent (operative word there) competition.  It’s fairly obvious really.  Unfortunately for GW, that day has come and they don’t seem to have noticed.

Posted By Toreador on 03/21/2007 8:30 AM
Mmmmmm.. mole mortars. I still have my old thudd gun template...

I think the rumours are out there, but most right now are for WHFB. Most people aren't very excited about Apocolypse, as who really wants to play big games when they don't like to play the little games. Other than that there isn't much too get excited about for 40k as Chaos and Orks are a while off yet, though I know a lot of Ork players are as excited as a 24 hour party squig.

High Elf, Dark Elf and VC players are getting into quite a tizzy about their books being on the way, with rampant rumours flying around Warseer. But not many people care over here.

The price has always been a factor. I remember back in 1st edition when people complained that the 4 fig packs were $5 and how they could get Grenadier or Old Glory figs so much cheaper. There were always a lot of stand in figs. It's always been that way, and I don't think it will ever change.

What's a VC player?  Venom Cannon?

Vampire Counts, methinks. That's what I mean at least. It could be a player from Vancouver, or someone who likes Victorolas, I suppose.

Yep, Vampire Counts.

It's funny to search UK financial sections about GW. Long lists of low profits and warnings ever since they went public. The most "profitablity" they seemd to have was with LOTR, but that time is over.

Posted By Toreador on 03/20/2007 9:41 PM
There is a difference between "criticism" and " bashing". There are a few people that are here only to do that.

Anyone that actually "likes" something GW puts out, is a "fanboi".
People that criticize are "haterz".

There can be a middle ground, but the internet tends to gravitate people to opposite poles.

That's true...it's a crime...but rather true.

The next thing out is the warhammer fantasy scenery. Last year at this time it was cities of death. I'm really looking forward to it. There is also a Lord of the rings set for moria coming out. There are also several releases for fantasy in conjunction with Nemisis campaign. Next army book is High elves, next codex is chaos of some sort or another. Times for releases who knows. And by the way the DA codex is fine. You can still play deathwing or ravenwing or you can use them together. Its the best combo punch in the game! If you cannot see how to make DA an amazingly powerful army you just are not trying. the fact that they reduced razorbacks to 50 points makes them worth taking. rhinos are cheaper, you can telport your 1/2 your termies in on the first turn. the support squadrons are really neat. You are all just hating again for no reason. The psyker power for th librain alone is awesome a flamer template that has the possibility of being strength 10 ap 3. And plastic space marines are plastic space marines gasp the horror. The sculpts are fine.

"Don't give in to hate, that path leads to the Dark Side."

shhhhh JackB
you're pointing out all the qualities, not the flaws
they're going to tear you a new one!

Posted By syr8766 on 03/21/2007 8:12 AM
.

Wait, how did we get on this topic? Okay, rumors...um...I heard Jervis was producing an Album with Rick Rubin, some kind of Souza-meets-The Game mash-up. Should be out around the same time they release plastic Valhallans. I hear the plastic baneblade will come with your choice of ring-tones: They Might Be Giants, Ashanti or Panic! At The Disco. There's some talk of having a cross-over game for WHFRP and White Wolf's Pimp: The Backhanding. You heard it here first!

Jervis and Robin Dews were going on a reunion tour with Bolt Thrower but they got in a bar fight with Andy Chambers and Tuomas Pirinen  in Leeds and Jervis lost his thumb.  Rick Priestly has retired and is currently selling meat door to door in Wisconsin, no one knows what became of Gav Thorpe,  but no one really cares either

I used to sell meat door to door, but was told by the police that I was soliciting sex to old people.

potaytoe, potahtoe.

Posted By Hellfury on 03/21/2007 3:48 PM
I used to sell meat door to door, but was told by the police that I was soliciting sex to old people.

Christ, they don't make cleanser strong enough to scrub that image from my brain!!

This summer, the Meat will inherit the Earth.  A man without a past meets a woman that no amount of beef will satisfy.  Together, their love will be braised in its own juices.

Little Death of A Salesman, in Color.  Rated R for strong sexual content and pervasive male nudity.

Posted By Jester on 03/21/2007 5:20 PM

Posted By Hellfury on 03/21/2007 3:48 PM
I used to sell meat door to door, but was told by the police that I was soliciting sex to old people.

Christ, they don't make cleanser strong enough to scrub that image from my brain!!

This summer, the Meat will inherit the Earth.  A man without a past meets a woman that no amount of beef will satisfy.  Together, their love will be braised in its own juices.

Little Death of A Salesman, in Color.  Rated R for strong sexual content and pervasive male nudity.

Ah, the first GW snuff film. Excellent.   

I hope the reason for the silence is that their entire staff is spending its time punching Jervis Johnson in the face.

I'd go for that. Now thats a mental image I would like to cherish.

Posted By Phryxis on 03/21/2007 6:55 PM
I hope the reason for the silence is that their entire staff is spending its time punching Jervis Johnson in the face.

Wouldn't that then be just Jervis punching himself in the face, or are you including beancounters?

"Stop hitting yourself Jervis! Stop it, you naughty boy! Stop hitting yourself!"

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Wow, I really didn't need that visual. I mean, better than Fat Bloke in a ball gag and dressed like Zardoz, but even so. Sorry folks.