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Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 03/30/2007 4:27 PM
Oh for heavens sake..... go read the AT-43 rules and then use the thing between your  <snip>!</snip>

Meow!

Someone needs a nap, maybe?

Sheesh!

It was kind of a rhetorical question.

Remember reading the part where I said I actually liked the current version of Confrontation?

(Maybe the thing between your ears isn't so good at reading comprehension, or perhaps there's a short term memory issue?)

Anyway, I don't recall ranting and raving either, just stating an opinion...

I'm more than willing to give Confrag'Narok a shot, as the rules will be available for free. All I was saying is I'm not quite sure how they're going to pull it off to the satisfaction of both "Skirmish" and "Large Scale Battles" players.

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 03/30/2007 4:27 PM

@Hobbyists
Nice being a hobbyist, but in the end they are not going to pay the bills of the company.... there are too few of them. So.... the company has to invite in also the not so elitist gamers too.

Really? GW and Privateer Press both do a lot more business than Rackham within the hobbyist market. I think there is room to grow laterally. Whether it's the best business move or not depends on data I don't have access to.

I personally love playing the game. If the ruleset is good, the models look nice, and it happens to be a wargame (no kidding), then I'm in. I could convert and buildthings all day - when it comes to painting, I tend to shy away, simply because I don't have a steady enough hand to execute the minute strokes I see made on many, many models. When it comes to painting time, I tend to prime, slap on about a half-dozen colors in two layers, and call it a day.

That said, prepainted is a bit of a godsend. I still consider myself to be very into wargaming, I just lack the patience and the skill to create beautiful models like so many of the talented individuals on this forum can and do. I don't care about Golden Demon level paintings, nor do I care that my models may have a very slight color mistake, where perhaps some of the black from the Guardsman's helmet sloshed over the light brown face of the soldier. None of that matters in the grand scheme of things.

I'm not trying to cut at those of you whose skills are so insane that you can pump out miniature versions of people - eyelashes, pupils, freckles and all - more power to you for being good at something you're passionate about. I'm the same way with my AP Studio Art class, just not for small delicate plastic models that require the precision of a surgeon.

CK

I am really happy that some of you are not running any company in the business.....

I think the prepaints have their place, especially with older gamers like myself, who have the money, but not the time to convert/paint a force, although they do prefer painted miniatures.

My issue is that the armies are all one color. It would be like GW saying that instead of a thousand Space Marine chapters, there are just Ultramarines. So every Space Marine army would be Ultramarines. If AT-43 catches on, will it be any more fun to play with unpainted minis, opposed to a light blue army vs. another light blue army? I mean yeah they are painted, but all faction armies will look the same. Time will tell, I suppose.

And it seems that many other gamers out there regularly game with opponents that have fully painted armies, but at the four or five shops I have frequented over the years, the majority are the silver horde.

I have debated over getting the Damocles box for a few months now. Still not sure. I still hold out hope to have the big Imperial city game board and a full army of converted Orks rampaging through it.

But if 40k has taught me anything, it is that hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

engine

It´s always the same.... as soon as a small company shows up all flock to it and call it the rebel... if the company starts to get bigger and changes some stuff it becomes the badass..... Who´s next? Privater Press, when they will release the Warmachine plastics?l

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 04/01/2007 9:59 AM
It´s always the same.... as soon as a small company shows up all flock to it and call it the rebel... if the company starts to get bigger and changes some stuff it becomes the badass..... Who´s next? Privater Press, when they will release the Warmachine plastics?l

It wouldn't matter if they released plastics, their sculpts would still suck, and fanboi's would still hail them as gods for their terrible game.

It really isn't all that terrible.

In fact, it isn't terrible at all!

But, as always, opinions vary.

Have you actually played a game of Confrontation (v3.0)?

Back OT, Rackham is gambling big-time with this move.
By all accounts, the vets are annoyed.

There is no guarantee that this somewhat radical departure they've decided upon will do what they want (need?) it to do.

I want to be optimistic.

(In fact, I need to, as I've spent a LOT on them in the past 2 years!)

But, pre-painted articulated plastics?

Yes, I've played C3 quite a bit. I think it is a far better game than Warmachine, on every level. I also felt that 40k and just about any other miniature game I've ever played (maybe not that wierd 3rd edition of Warzone, though) were better than WM. As you say though, opinions vary.

I'm really bummed about this change in Rackham, but really, it's hard to say exactly how bummed until we see the full rules restructuring and the new models. It might not be as bad as I'd like to think it will, but then I'm a total pessimist and have zero faith in any miniature company anymore.

Well, try AT-43 rules and you will get a partial taste of what is to come....

Yep, and no likey. Ah well, more minis for ebay. Along with my Warzone stuff, and Vor stuff, and...

What I liked about Confrontation was the small unit sizes and attention to detail in the game. Are we sure Rakham just didn't get bought by Hasbro and put under the Avalon Hill banner?

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 04/02/2007 12:28 AM
Well, try AT-43 rules and you will get a partial taste of what is to come....

if that is what we have to look forward to in the future. someone just shoot me now.. I would rather place bamboo under my fingernails and drink muratic acid..

Please drop the AT fancrap and move on.. your point is fully horse flogged..

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 04/02/2007 12:28 AM
Well, try AT-43 rules and you will get a partial taste of what is to come....

I have, and to be honest, it's ok, but it's nothing special. There's no flavor to it anymore, and the models aren't anything to write home about. Don't get me wrong, they're decent, and by far the best pre-paints in the industry. But the models are sub-par to GW models I feel, and the rules, too. So why should I be interested in a game that, on every level, isn't better than what's already out there? Especially when 40k has an established fanbase and that means I don't have to coax every one of my opponents into buy new models and rules and trying out a game? I didn't mind doing that with Confrontation, because the rules were better, the models were better. Can you honestly say the same with AT-43? Do you think C:AoB will be any better? I'd like it to be, but I have serious doubts if you and Rackham are using AT-43 as the litmus.

40K rules are better than AT-43, sorry but you never have played it if that´s your opinion. I just wonder why many 40K players are flocking to AT and lauding it for it´s better system.

I am not worried.  I gave up GW to move solely on Rackham's line a year ago.  I have been watching the English Rackham forums, and feel confident that all the questions I have are being asked right now.

I feel the Rackham will make the right decisions for them and us at the end.  I am actually looking forward to the army books and box sets.  It will be alot  easier to get more people to join the game and leave what is current behind, for awhile at least. 

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 04/02/2007 10:00 AM
40K rules are better than AT-43, sorry but you never have played it if that´s your opinion. I just wonder why many 40K players are flocking to AT and lauding it for it´s better system.

As novel as at-43 is, and  crappy of a ruleset tht 40k is, I still think GW has a lead over Rackham.

Yes, there are many things in at-43 that make alot more sense (LOS issues being the foremost to spring to mind) they still dont translate well, without some liberal use of making a judgement call on what a french translated rule says.

They badly need a translator whose first language is english that know wargame mechanics.

So in some ways, I can still agree that as flawed as 40K is, it is indeed still better than AT-43.

Where is this mythical flocking away from 40K to AT-43? Where are the lauded appraisals of this game?

I was one of the first to rabidly consume this alternative to 40K here reporting on its news, and to be honest, I am quite underwhelmed by AT-43's showing for itself.

It works well, but it is by no stretch of the imagination competitive with what GW offers as of yet. Which is to say that it might be in the far future, but in the near future, I have my doubts. Not with the lack of lauded appraisals I am seeing, nor by what I am seeing when I play AT-43 myself.

The English version of AT-43 barely reached North American and the full rules for the sub-fraction have not even published in English. Any yet, people made the conclusion is that the rules for AT-43 is subpar to WH40K. If you don't want to look into another system, that is fine but don't presume that you knew AT-43 well.

There are also those people who are still so fuzzy about unpainted or pre-painted minis. I hope you people should realized that the game industry is driven by profit. If I can produce a game with pre-painted minis that sells and gives me profit, I don't give a damn about the existing players who insists in unpainted minis and who only consist of a small portion of the market. If you can't stand this, go take a hike and get into another game and stop complaining here.

As far as I understand, there are still unpainted metal minis for Confrontation. Any reason why you cannot have both types in your army or allow you opponent to field pre-painted minis.

For those who ignore the fun aspect of table top gaming, you should not be here at all.

This message is not directed to any particular person.

Posted By wildger on 04/02/2007 10:40 AM
The English version of AT-43 barely reached North American and the full rules for the sub-fraction have not even published in English. Any yet, people made the conclusion is that the rules for AT-43 is subpar to WH40K. If you don't want to look into another system, that is fine but don't presume that you knew AT-43 well.

While I understand it wasnt directed at me, I feel inclined to reply to this portion of your post.

Fortunatly, I can make any assessment I want, because I fully play both systems. Thus, I feel I am quite qualified to make educated judgements based on how a game plays, how easy it is to understand, etc.

The english version of the rules have been on the internet from the rackham site for download for months, even before the game was released. The full english version of the seperate rulebook has been in the states for awhile as well. Long enough to know that AT-43 has a long way to go to make those rules clearer and more well written than even the shoddy 40K rules are.

Anything else you would like to add?

I wonder if all those unsold box sets of At-43 in my local shops are because of the 40k players flocking to it, or because of all the lauding going on.

Sorry, but I have played AT-43. My roommate is one of their miniature pimps. It's ok, but a diversion, like a boardgame.

Confrontation was never all that solid. As many ambiguities as any GW product, and that was never fixed.

I still have yet to see people playing it in a store around here other than when the store demoed it.

To Hellfury, I am very interested in knowing how you get hold the english version of the UNA army book and Therian army since you cannot even order them directly from Rackham. The english version of the Advanced AT rulebook was shipped out last week or 10 days ago to N.A. Only those who directly ordered from Rackham got the rulebook in their hands. Yes, I guess that you feel that the book has been here for a long time. The verson on the website gives you some basic mechanics of the game but does not cover anything else. You know the subfaction army list for the therian? Can you define what relay does or know how to bring in a Hekat? Nevermind. If you are not interested in AT-43, just say so. No need to say that it is subpar.

Posted By wildger on 04/02/2007 11:33 AM
To Hellfury, I am very interested in knowing how you get hold the english version of the UNA army book and Therian army since you cannot even order them directly from Rackham. The english version of the Advanced AT rulebook was shipped out last week or 10 days ago to N.A. Only those who directly ordered from Rackham got the rulebook in their hands. Yes, I guess that you feel that the book has been here for a long time. The verson on the website gives you some basic mechanics of the game but does not cover anything else. You know the subfaction army list for the therian? Can you define what relay does or know how to bring in a Hekat? Nevermind. If you are not interested in AT-43, just say so. No need to say that it is subpar.

Did I say anything about army books?

No.

I said rulebook. As in the rulebook.

Did I say advanced rulebook?

No.

I said rulebook.

The rulebook is also contained in the AT-43 set. Which I have also had since the middle of january.

Did I say that I was not interested in AT-43?

No.

Can you respond to what  I actually said as opposed to paraphrasing me out of context?

lol man you have issues... that or you just have not been here for... the last decade on rackham? maybe both >

Funny thing is like everyone now seems to say Rackham was losing money and doing very very bad with just a 2 or 3 painters as their fan base... whatever.

Believe on what you want because if Rackham says at-43 is having a HUGE sucess they should know. Its very hard to built up good reputation but losing all credibility only takes few mistaques. Rackham has lost all credibility IMHO.

 

I think that you misunderstand me or most likely I use the wrong words and did not explain myself well.  Pre-painted minis definitely has a market that cannot be ignored.  Yes, some players get disappointed but, as far as I know, not the entire confronation line is going pre-painted. You can still continue to paint up an army.  Correct me if I am wrong. If this new move by Rackham is going to bring in more players and make the game prosper and help the company generate income, why complain so much against it?

I do not say the AT-43 is a hugh success.  However, if it is all unpainted, I don't believe that it gets the interests it had today. 
 

To Hellbury, I guess I made a big mistake on my part. I am sorry.

It has also become clear (well, at least to me!) that Rackham is going to "Streamline" and "Simplfy" the rules to the point where "Confrontation" will basically cease to exist.

A slight exaggeration on my part, probably, but it certainly looks that way.

Soon to be gone - any sort of "contested" dice roll in combat.

To me, this is a major loss.

Did it "slow" the game down? Maybe.

Did it add a lot to the game - definitely!

It doesn't even look like they'll be any type of armor save either, so you'll just be picking up arm loads of figs and dumping them back in their buckets?

Faster? Sure.

Fun?

Well, it remains to be seen, but it isn't looking likely.

The good news (?) is, I think Confrontation WILL survive among a large group of players, probably as a modified 3.5 (with fixes to the LOS and Bullseye issues). And I think it will be a long time before the majority of players "give up" on it.

CONFRONTATION: AGE OF BATTLES sounds like it might be an OK Battle game (ala Warhammer), but not so OK a Skirmish game...

I think it's too early to say exactly what will happen to the game, without knowing the specific changes they'd make. Speculation is a fun sport, but it is folly to take for sterling the ephemeral currency of the estimate.

There was a time, not long from now, when people couldn't imagine playing 40k without armor save modifiers, the movement stat or overwatch. Certainly, there are those who lament their loss to this day. But despite the lack of all of these things, some people find the game to be a worthwhile endeavour.

Myself, I'd never buy anything non-metallic from Rackham, which also includes their rulebooks, so I suppose my opinion is moot. If they stop making metal figures, they'll lose my patronage of their products, but that's anecdotal evidence, not solid proof.

Since I have access quite early to the english/french and german version of the rules I do know them by heart now. And I really have to wonder abou some statements.

@Hellfury
You know the OD rulebook? Have you ever read the Advanced Rules? There´s quite a difference between both books.

I'm not that close a follower of the industry side of the business, but I have to wonder if this gamble on prepainted is Rackham trying to jump on a bandwagon that just isn't there.  Mongoose's decision to go with pre-paints for Battlefield:Evolution hasn't exactly been met with tremendous enthusiasm.  In fact, Mongoose had such a bad response to the initial pics of their product that they had to refit the entire thing and do another round of painting. And 8-10 minis for $25 isn't exactly a gateway price for a miniatures game.

I think Battlefield: Evolution will be the bellweather for whether or not a prepainted wargame can really survive without a secondary market (like RPG's for D&D miniatures, or fans for Star Wars games).  And then we'll see if Rackham has hitched its wagon to the right star.

Posted By Duncan_Idaho on 04/02/2007 1:31 PM

...I really have to wonder abou some statements.

@Hellfury
You know the OD rulebook? Have you ever read the Advanced Rules? There´s quite a difference between both books.

Ill wait to pass judegement next week on the advanced rulebook when I see it, but if it is translated as bad as the one I have from damocles, then Ill probably pass on it quicker than a speeding bullet.

Sorry, I only have enough room for one badly written game already. It wont matter how well written the AT-43 rules are in french if it is as badly translated as the damocles book is.

Sugar-coat the wording on questioning peoples intelligence all you like and wonder all you want about statements, but everyone has an opinion. Some people opinions are more educated AND informed than others, however.

I havent seen the advanced rules, but judging by past experience with damocles, Ill say that I wont get my hopes up too high for the advanced rules as I did for Damocles.

I will however, give yor opinion the benefit of the doubt, even though it is quite obvious that you are biased.

Posted By Agamemnon2 on 04/02/2007 12:48 PM

There was a time, not long from now, when people couldn't imagine playing 40k without armor save modifiers, the movement stat or overwatch. Certainly, there are those who lament their loss to this day. But despite the lack of all of these things, some people find the game to be a worthwhile endeavour.

Hey! That's me!

I also lamented the loss of a "true" psyker  phase, the ability to throw grenades and terminator armor that was worth a damn.

And no, I never thought 2nd edition was perfect, but, as always, GW swung the pendulum too far in the opposite direction with 3rd.

I like a certain amount of "complexity" in my games.

Really, all Rackham had to do for Confrontation was:

1) Fix/Streamline the Magic and Divination system
2) Publish army books so as to:
    a. Get their background into one place, instead of all over the place
    b. Adjust/Fix the points values for troops, as its been a while and the balance out     a little

Rag'Narok, on the other hand, NEEDED a major overhaul. Making that game something closer to WFB is probably a good idea.

I hope everything turns out OK. I really do.

Posted By Agamemnon2 on 04/02/2007 12:48 PM

Myself, I'd never buy anything non-metallic from Rackham, which also includes their rulebooks,

 

Oh, SNAP!  

Sigged!