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Posted By Green Bloater on 05/31/2007 2:29 PM
Graham got the boot because the Templars codex was considered a failure. So is DA, and even moreso. Sometimes you have to cut out all the garbage before you can grow again. Off wif iz 'ead!

  I suppose that GW should hire YOU instead? 

This post reminds me of a scene from Pee-Wee's Big Adventure:

I say we kill him!


I say we hang him, then we kill him!


I say we stomp him!

Then we tattoo him!

Then we hang him!

And then we kill him!

Posted By Mithrax on 06/01/2007 5:08 AM
This post reminds me of a scene from Pee-Wee's Big Adventure:

I say we kill him!


I say we hang him, then we kill him!


I say we stomp him!

Then we tattoo him!

Then we hang him!

And then we kill him!

...and of course the punchline (from Jervis)...."I say we let him go."

I think it's presumptuous for us to place disappointments on the shoulders of one person.  It's more than a little cruel to then suggest they be fired. 

Jeese!

 

 

Only for lots o $$$ and I only take work as a consultant. Sorry.

How bout options? Will you work for stock options? No cash just a stake in the fruits of your labor?

Jervis should stay, he's got my vote. He's part of the old guard, when Games Workshop was full of gamers for gamers. I REALLY doubt that mindset has passed him by. Pointedly, Dark Angels was a bit lackluster...look at Blood Angels though

Is he working on the Chaos Codex? If so, that'll show those of us that really follow the game just how much thought he's putting into it.

Right.

- Greenie

(I work for cold hard cash only )

Posted By Green Bloater on 05/31/2007 2:29 PM
Graham got the boot because the Templars codex was considered a failure.

What a brilliant move.  Any idiot realizes that the reason why Templars were so popular in 3rd ed was because their rules were a big log of stinky government cheese.  If indeed the games designer's job is to write balanced rules then they basically canned Graham for doing his job.  On the other hand, if the the games designer's job is to sell models, game balance and playability be damned, then I guess it makes sense.

Of course this leaves me wondering what the hell Jervis is doing.  If I was a games designer who valued my job I would have given Deathwing 4 assault cannons per squad.  For free.  The fact is that with this new reverse codex creep their sales are going to disappoint more than ever.  I can definitely see the upcoming Chaos release performing much worse than expected and Jervis getting the boot.  Then they'll make another 180° and by the time the Space Wolf codex rolls around you'll see drop pods with assault ramps and assault cannons.  For free.

I think saying that Graham got the boot b/c of Codex BT not doing too well is an over simplification and doesn't bear on Jervis' prospects for the future.

Jervis has been able to include DA as part of a plan - short term pain for long term gain - which should insulate him from the effects for a couple years.

I think who Tom Kirby likes, and who does his grocery shopping, picks up his dry cleaning and waxes his shoes each morning for free has more to do with who gets kept and sacked.

>>I think who Tom Kirby likes, and who does his grocery shopping, picks up his dry cleaning and waxes his shoes each morning for free has more to do with who gets kept and sacked.

That's true in every company.

I agree, Jervais is the Old gaurd and should stay. He is the firendly face of GW. I remeber getting into the hobby and it was Jervais and Andy chambers I always saw as the face of Gw. Part of me still does.

He is a real gamer with tons of fluff knoledge. they can get rid of him or try and blame him. The Da codex was not that bad. Ok they got ris of 1 ass cannon per termie squad, so what, It did actually fit the fluff. Keep him, get fat bloke back as WD was actually worth buying then.

Having played Epic: Armageddon, I know that Jervis can design good games. Sounds to me like his plan for 40k can only really be properly realised by doing another version of 40k with a Ravenig Hordes-style set of army lists, as I doubt that powering down the new releases will lead to a corresponding increase in sales of old previously underpowered armies. I hope for his sake that GW have the patience to keep him in charge till then.

Posted By fellblade on 05/31/2007 6:50 AM
Yeah, I had no idea that Jervis was upper management, with any kind of authority. I thought he was just a relic of the early days that had disappeared into the depths of Specialist Games, quietly hiding in a relatively safe environment, forgotten by upper management and quietly whiling away the centuries. Sort of like the coelocanth. Then suddenly management realizes that profits are falling, market share is shrinking, and lots of gamers seem unaccountably to be P.O.'d at Games Workshop, so they trawl the depths of the human resources pool looking for anyone whose file is more than 5 years old, and find this amazing creature from the dawn of the time! So they drag poor Jervis back to the surface, and force him to front for the current management's stupid decisions if he wants to keep his health benefits & retirement plan.

This is exactly the way it seems to me too, Jervis is fine as a designer, the specialist game show he still knows how to do that. Right now he is just the talking head for the higher ups, he is like a birthday pony, GW trotts out for the special occasions to distract everyone away from scrutinising the guys actually running the show.

 I say keep Jervis around, even tho I'm not a fan of this latest codex, I dont think it was horible by any stretch of the imagination. Besides who are they goona rel\place him with if they did can him?

Fire Jervis, HELL NO!

I actually sat down last night and read through most of the stuff in the last White Dwarf and actually enjoyed it. Most notably was his Standard Bearer article about putting the new BA List in White Dwarf.

Know what, it was well written, explained how and why they did it (because they wanted to and thought it'd be awesome and convinced the bean counters to let them).

And you know what, what is REALLY wrong with the new DA list, and the new BA list?

They didn't lose any flavor they simply lost power gaming options. Or at the very least, their power gaming options changed drastically, with the DA getting the shorter end of the stick as far as power gaming.

But you know what, what do people *female dog* about the most with 40k? Marines, MEQ's, their inherent advantages and abuses that exist with them. What's the problem with Codex Marines? Too abusable because you get all the power of MEQ's for dirt cheap prices and the customization to gain benefits with no real detriment to your army. Maybe "Codex Not Marines" armies fail because so many MEQ armies get cheap Las/Plas squads which render tanks ineffective or hampered; maybe always deep striking terminators with two assault cannons is a bit much. Really, I never saw the "customization" of Codex Marines used to add actual "flavor" to Terminators. It was always 5 Termies with 2 Assault Cannons or 2 CML's. Or the "flavor" was the squad was bumped up to 6 Termies, not because of any reason other than the fact that it makes it harder to take the unit below scoring. That's not "flavor" that's power gaming.

With the restrictions placed in the DA and BA lists, it limits Marine armies in ways that make it fair against other lists that aren't Godzilla Nids or Mech Eldar. If Chaos goes about the same way and removes the stupidly good and abusable options that exist in the current dex; it'll go a long way to fixing the problem of "MEQ armies" and "Not MEQ armies" as far as power and balance.

Do I think that Dark Angels can stand up to Godzilla and Mech Eldar? Godzilla, probably not. Mech Eldar, possibly with the right setup and decisions on combat squads and mission. Can they be fair against Mech Tau? Yes, actually, I think they can; Same against Templars and other armies.

Can you say that about Codex Marines?

Sure Blood Angels can be maxed out on, but they're no where near as abusable as they were before; and they were one of the most abusable loyalists codex's there was - which says a lot considering how good Codex Marines are.

I mean people don't say that the Nid Dex isn't "flavorful" or is bland or is an example of the game being ruined; but from what I can tell those lists are way more "samey, bland, and cookie cutter" than the DA or BA are now - 3 Dakka Fex's, Flyrant, 2-3 Gun Fex's with VC/BS, and then "other stuff" where "other stuff" is a mix of a few units depending on the points level of the game. And you know what, if there was a Tyranid Redux codex and they got rid of Elite Fex's - people would *female dog* about the lack of variety or "flavor" being pulled from the list.

You want to fire Jervis after the DA book and the BA list, yet we haven't even seen what Chaos is like (let alone who wrote the thing), or Orks after it. If the game is going to be "balanced" by Jervis and made into something better than it is now, he at least needs some friggin time to do it. I mean really, if it wasn't for Godzilla and Mech Eldar (and Marines with certain combos) then there really wouldn't be such a problem with Dark Angels. Fix or limit those problems and suddenly things are becoming better for the game.

Trick question. So here's a trick answer: yes, but it won't do any good.

So Voodoo Boyz, when you do think they'll fix Mech Eldar?

Switching in horses in mid-stream was a bloody stupid approach to the problem. Since Codex SM and Eldar are already out there, you need to bring other stuff in line. As it stands Dark Angels are fair and fun against Tau and Guard, but suck horribly against Eldar and regular Marines. Since Eldar isn't going to get fixed until the next edition change, they should have made DA competitive with it and brought Tau and Guard and Orks into line with Codex Space Marines, Nidzilla and Mech Eldar.

Posted By Asmodai on 06/05/2007 7:27 AM
So Voodoo Boyz, when you do think they'll fix Mech Eldar?

Switching in horses in mid-stream was a bloody stupid approach to the problem. Since Codex SM and Eldar are already out there, you need to bring other stuff in line. As it stands Dark Angels are fair and fun against Tau and Guard, but suck horribly against Eldar and regular Marines. Since Eldar isn't going to get fixed until the next edition change, they should have made DA competitive with it and brought Tau and Guard and Orks into line with Codex Space Marines, Nidzilla and Mech Eldar.

But Tau and Templars were already out which don't really stand up to nidzilla or mech eldar either.  So the problem still stands no matter which way they go.

Marines may get a redux which fixes their problems as far as being one of the top armies.  As far as fixing Mech Eldar and Nidzilla, yes we're stuck with them and that won't change unless they get reduxed or FAQ'ed, or something.

Of course the rest of the armies will be balanced and perhaps those two builds will just remain as shining examples of brokeness; which tournament organizers can actively build scenarios around to hamper them if they end up dominating too much.  Or GW could build some kind of counter to each army into specific builds of other lists to help counter act the problems.  Necrons are a great example of an army which really does screw over Mech Eldar (I love my shiny new army BTW).  Chaos may be a great answer to Zilla Nids if people can take 9 Oblits, a DP, and whatever else for troops (say 1ksons) who would have the stupid firepower to put down Nidzilla and MEQ lists, but would lake the volume of firepower to put down hordes or IG masses of guns, etc.

Beefing everything up more and more just screws over other armies in the process.  If they're careful they may be able to actually balance the game out with the codex's that we currently have out being available.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 06/05/2007 5:58 AM
Fire Jervis, HELL NO!



They didn't lose any flavor they simply lost power gaming options. Or at the very least, their power gaming options changed drastically, with the DA getting the shorter end of the stick as far as power gaming.

But you know what, what do people *female dog* about the most with 40k? Marines, MEQ's, their inherent advantages and abuses that exist with them. What's the problem with Codex Marines? Too abusable because you get all the power of MEQ's for dirt cheap prices and the customization to gain benefits with no real detriment to your army. Maybe "Codex Not Marines" armies fail because so many MEQ armies get cheap Las/Plas squads which render tanks ineffective or hampered; maybe always deep striking terminators with two assault cannons is a bit much. Really, I never saw the "customization" of Codex Marines used to add actual "flavor" to Terminators. It was always 5 Termies with 2 Assault Cannons or 2 CML's. Or the "flavor" was the squad was bumped up to 6 Termies, not because of any reason other than the fact that it makes it harder to take the unit below scoring. That's not "flavor" that's power gaming.

With the restrictions placed in the DA and BA lists, it limits Marine armies in ways that make it fair against other lists that aren't Godzilla Nids or Mech Eldar. If Chaos goes about the same way and removes the stupidly good and abusable options that exist in the current dex; it'll go a long way to fixing the problem of "MEQ armies" and "Not MEQ armies" as far as power and balance.


I mean people don't say that the Nid Dex isn't "flavorful" or is bland or is an example of the game being ruined; but from what I can tell those lists are way more "samey, bland, and cookie cutter" than the DA or BA are now - 3 Dakka Fex's, Flyrant, 2-3 Gun Fex's with VC/BS, and then "other stuff" where "other stuff" is a mix of a few units depending on the points level of the game. And you know what, if there was a Tyranid Redux codex and they got rid of Elite Fex's - people would *female dog* about the lack of variety or "flavor" being pulled from the list.

QFT

100% agreement with Voodoo Boyz, He speeks the truth.

I do not agree with what Voodoo Boyz said because it is from the perspective of someone obviously biased against SM.

- Greenie

Tau should get a massive boost, no doubt about that.

Posted By Green Bloater on 06/05/2007 1:15 PM
I do not agree with what Voodoo Boyz said because it is from the perspective of someone obviously biased against SM.

- Greenie

I have nearly completed (as in build, based, painted) well over 5k points of Ultramarines, who have essentially became my de-facto army for 40k as I've grown to loathe playing Orks over the past year and a half.

I use the abusive, cheesy, over the top army list in tournaments and I've won some local stuff with it - And I'm taking that same OTT army to Games Day's RT tournament at Baltimore.

Hypocritical? Yes, but I want to compete on even footing with Zilla Nids and actually try to win the thing, mainly because I said I was going to go for that.  After this, I doubt I'll be running that type of army much anymore.  I will likely try out a fluffy UM list or just use DA rules for UM for a while. 

I bloody freakin LOVE Space Marines (hurr!).

Okay I was wrong. Sorry about that and thanks for clearing it up for me.

- Greenie

Thank you VB, thank you.

Cue the DA haturz in T minus 3.. 2.. 1...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I don't think they should fire him.

I say that mainly because I prefer to reserve judgement when I don't have all the information. I don't know what hes responsible for, and what he's not. I thought the Eldar Codex was solid. The first half of the Blood Angels Codex in WD leaves me feeling positive for some reason.

But there are major issues...

I think there's a desire to tighten up the rules, which I think is a good idea, but the result ends to be simpler rules that are still full of holes. I tend to think this is mostly on Jervis, but I am not sure.

The real need is for better, smarter rules, not for simpler rules. Codex Dark Angels is a classic example of this. I think the Dark Angels list is mostly fine, it's a competitive balanced list. There's just odd crap throughout it that annoys me.

From what I understand, he did Codex DA, and some other cat did Codex Eldar. Considering how much better I think Codex Eldar is, I have to wonder why the guy that did that book isn't in Jervis' job right now, especially given how tricky a good Eldar list is to write.



Yes. Big time. I mean, once in a while, you can be that enthusiastic. Say, when a new edition of the rules comes out... Or when you finally get off your ass an release Codex Orks... But EVERY month he's just gushing about something, and doing the same song and dance. He does a little bit about how old he's getting, he talks about how hard he and his pals work, he talks about how utterly, mindbendingly special the GW hobby is... Eventually it starts to get a little insincere. We all enjoy the hobby, Jerv. Settle down. If you love it so much, why don't you marry it?



My suggestion to them would be to consider parallel systems. "40K Advanced" or "40K Skirmish" or whatever it has to be... Uses the same models, but has a different system. That way people can keep playing normal 40K, but then they've got all these other books to sell, some nifty counters, whatever. They sorta did that with Kill Team, but they didn't push it all that much.



Uhhh, what now? First off, have you seen the full Codex yet? Without the full rules, without points costs, it's very hard to judge.

Plus, what's not abusable? Predictably sized DC all with Rending? Assault Marines with 2A? Have you noticed Dante and Mephiston?

Maybe you've seen something I haven't, but they still look pretty brutal. Not that I mind... I've got an army of them.



Honestly I think "balance" is a vastly overblown issue. There are certainly a few broken lists, and a few lists that really need help... It's not perfect... But it's pretty good. The real issue is the quality of the rules, the polish on them, and the sophistication of the game. The issue is a need for responsive FAQs and better clarity.

Yes I've seen the full codex for the BA. At 1500 Points, the army is pretty balanced. Taking Mephiston and a Chaplain for the maxed out Death Company leaves you with very little else to make an army with. Assault Marines as troops is good, but to be competitive you have to min them out and just take 5 with a Power Fist, otherwise you can't take other stuff. Combat Squads hurts assault units, take too many of them and you lose out on fire support. This wasn't quite the case with the old BA list where you could still pack plenty of Las and Assault Cannons while keeping some really powerful assault units that had to be avoided (including a big death company).

Sure you can do a lot with the BA's, but cheesing it isn't as bad as the old list I think. I've faced some pretty crazy BA lists before, I'm not as afraid of the new army.

And I don't think Balance is a tiny issue. Not when 4 or so armies are so much better than the rest of them that they have a marked advantage in most match ups, let alone issues where certain armies are so crappy that they have a disadvantage in most any matchup.

Posted By Phryxis on 06/05/2007 8:47 PM

So do you roll the dice by blowing the game up and potentially fall flat on your face, or do you try to patch the game and keep the bleeding to a minimum?

My suggestion to them would be to consider parallel systems. "40K Advanced" or "40K Skirmish" or whatever it has to be... Uses the same models, but has a different system. That way people can keep playing normal 40K, but then they've got all these other books to sell, some nifty counters, whatever. They sorta did that with Kill Team, but they didn't push it all that much.

 

I proposed that here a while back.  I know what Macragge is trying to do, but IMO 40K needs a proper lead-in skirmish game using 40K miniatures (sorry Necromunda). That'd allow them to go head-to-head vs. some of their competition (see how Privateer and Rackham like that) AND provide something to hook players that doesn't get boring after a few games. 

Here's what I envision:

- Everything you need to play in one rulebook -- rules, atmospheric fluff, complete army lists and tons of scenarios

- *Similar* rules, but altered to operate for a skirmish game (so the game stands on its own, but someone "graduating" to 40K will recognize some basic mechanics)

- Rules for experience and campaign play, a la Necromunda and Mordheim to encourage continuing play (and more miniatures purchases)

- No separate miniature line -- army lists use (limited and selected) units from existing 40k armies (one idea is to include special datafax cards for the new game in the regular boxed sets for said units)

- Title the game "Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader" for old time's sake

So what would that accomplish? 

- Gives GW a real offering in the skirmish space of the industry

- Provides a more compelling, replayable intro game for 40K than Macragge

- Requires very little additional shelf space in stores

- May even boost sales of boxed sets to vets who want to "dabble" in a new army with the new game

I realize GW would be concerned that players might stop with "RT" and never graduate to 40K.  That's a concern, no doubt.  But I question how many players try Macragge, get bored with it and never graduate to larger games of 40K.

You're right, it might be a way for them to inject some life into their product line while avoiding a complete blowup of 40K.  But I'm not in charge there. 

Maybe their afraid of balkanizing the player base?  One of their main selling points is their popularity and the relative ease of finding opponents.  If they were to split 40K up it might lead to more difficulty finding opponents who play your particular "flavor" of 40K.

Care to share with the rest of the class?



I think that might be part of it. I also get the impression from everything I read that they can barely keep up with the pace of product development they're on right now. It seems crazy to me that they can't do more, hire more, etc., but I dunno... Everything takes twice as long as it seems like it should take in software, so maybe it's the same in publishing.

I'm guessing they just don't have the time to think about this sort of stuff. They just flail around, trying to keep their heads above water.

Abby and Phryxis: I agree with both of you. They probably are concerned about fragmenting the player base, although IMO it shouldn't be at the top of the list of their concerns. And they do seem barely able to keep up with current games development. The only rumors we hear about new game releases are re-releases like Talisman and Space Hulk.