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True, but are you changing game/rule balance for fluff reasons?

By allowing this, you are making some armies more powerful, and not others

Posted By yakface on 06/20/2007 12:10 PM

Page 62 of the rulebook specifies that only infantry may embark on a transport unless the transport's rules specify otherwise.

Models with Jump Packs are Jump Infantry and therefore are not allowed to embark on vehicles.

What about Dante who in the new 'official' BA codex has two unit types.  He is both Jump Infantry and Infantry.  Crazy, huh?

I think that's a typo since they list 'unit type' in two different places.

Maybe they'll correct it when the PDF hits the net at the end of August.

It's clearly a typo but I don't want to digress about how crappy the codex is.

But RAW would state that he can be stuck in a drop pod and also be deployed on the board in escalation.

And if you're logic about sticking ICs with squads before the game starts could Karrandras infiltrate a unit of Harlequins or guardian storm squad with an Autarch or Eldrad in it?

Btw, i agree with being able to associate ICs with squads before the game starts. Its a very logical way of doing it.

Posted By Reecius on 06/20/2007 9:45 AM

My friend runs an infiltrating command squad with a chappy with a jump pack to get an extra few inches of reach and set up a first turn charge.

The unit infiltrates 12" away from an enemy unit, they move forward 6", the chappy jumps 2" beyond the furthest model, plus has an extra 1" for his base, then charges 6" giving you about a 15" range, easily enough to engage an enemy unit and get a first turn charge. It doesnt always work if you are in difficult terrain, and often the chappy clears his kill zone leaving him out in the open, but against high Ld enemies not likely to run away, it gets them locked into combat right away.

You could use an IC in a pod with a jump pack to do the same thing and give you more reach out of the pod, or detach him and let him run rampant.

I cant think of a rule off hand that prohibits a model with a jump pack getting in a pod. I could be totally wrong though.

p. 15 of BBB- "All models in a unit move at the speed of the slowest model."

p.62 BBB- "Only infantry may embark in transports unless the transporting vehicle's rules specify otherwise." 

edited:  sorry, I was a little too eager to throw my $.02 in before I read the rest of the posts...

Reecius- your friend who runs that Cmd Sqd w/ jumppack guy isn't playing by RAW (and some would say he is cheating).  Surprised people haven't called him on it if he does that regularly.  But, for the rest, I see that my quotes are now redundant as they have been covered already...

Yup, and i feel stupid for bringing it up like it was a great idea! Oh well, thanks for clarifying, and next time he uses it, ill let him know that it is not kosher. it always seemed abusive anyway.



And that was sheer speculation on my part about the possibility of an IC getting in a pod with JP. I should know better than to run off on a wild tangent without checking the book to see if it is even allowed within the rules.

However, on that point, i see nothing prohibiting an IC capable of deepstriking from joining a unit before the game starts (under this house rule) and deepstriking together as a unit. The only real benefit to that though is protecting the IC from being shot the turn he drops in.




That is a pretty different situation. We were talking about placing units in reserve together. That is altogther different from starting units together on the board, although you can deploy an IC as starting the game attached to a squad. However, IIRC, the BGB states that infiltration is lost if all members of a unit do not posses the baility. Unless Karandras' rules tates that any unit he joins gains infiltrate (and i dont htink it does), then it doesnt hold water.

Basically what Reecius said. All models would need to have the same special rule you are using for the particular movement mode/ deployment method for this to work.

Taking your example you'd need to have Infiltrate on every IC and for the Unit for it to work.

Take CSM (I know their rules better than the Eldar at the moment.)

A Chaos Lord has Infiltrate.
The LT also has Infiltrate.
A unit of CSM has Infilitrate.

The Lord and LT may both join the CSM unit and Infiltrate as long as the mission allows it.

But I don't think I've answered the question posed by Yak...


Yes I would allow the placement of an IC into a unit per the IC rules, even if in reserves, and allow for ONE roll to be used for the entire combination.

To me (uh oh, DIG is about to say the word logic..), logically, before a battle a leader would choose where to be and what unit to be with! Every WH40K Novel I've read has supported this logic being transferred into the 40k Universe... so yes logically (uh oh he said it again, and he's speaking of himself in the third person) I would choose to allow it for any army.

But again... and I have posed this question 3 times now... rules are only partially on fluff, but need balance.

If you allow this 'advantage' to armies that often use IC's and transports, you are providing an advantage to certain armies, and not others. Thus upsetting the 'balance'.

Which is why Yak asked if one would allow this to be used as a blankey rule for every army.

It's a opinion based question. If you are not for it then your answer would be a resounding "no".

I feel that this would best be applied to every army out there, not just the Space marines and their brethren.

Keep it fair guys. This is all fine and dandy to say you space marine character can get into the transport with his troops but what about other armies? Can a dark eldar lord join a squad of warriors on their raider? Can a farseer join a squad of banshees in their waveserpent, or dragons in a falcon? If you are going to break the rules as they are for marines, you'll have to do it for everyone to keep it fair.

Phoenix, You should read the entire thread. Nobody's saying that we should only let SM's do this.

I am sorry, I didn't make my point clear.

I am assuming it would be a rule for all armies, not just drop pod, and not just SM.

But my point is, for some armies this ruling means "YAHOO!", for some armies it means "Cool...", for some armies it means "eh..so what"
So even though it is 'applied' to all armies, it only makes *some* armies better.

For example, lets say that SM army was playing a Nid army, and this ruling was going to be used. It would (greatly?) help the SM player, but not help the Nid player at all; eventhough it is applied 'fairly' to both armies.

As I mentioned earlier, it is like expanding Rending to work on a 5 and a 6. Sure it applies to all armies, but that same Nid player is a whole lot happier than the SM player

Just because a rule is applied to all armies, doesn't make it a 'fair' ruling. Now, I am not sure how many armies would benefit a lot, how many a little, and how many almost none... but I think it is an issue to address.


Some rules decisions are made for game balance reasons; when you change those rules it effects the game balance; even if the change 'makes sense' according to fluff.

Coredump:

I definitely agree that some armies benefit from this change more than others.

I am curious, what would you do if you were running a tournament that was using Escalation and had to make a ruling?


1) Would you say that all ICs (without attached retinues) can't use Drop Pods at all unless they are somehow in reserve and show up at the same time as a drop pod? This leaves DA and BA ICs out in the cold of having no way to show up in a Drop Pod (not to mention the Emperor's Champion in BT armies).

2) Would you say that BA and DA characters only can attach to units before the game only in order to use Drop Pods? This then leaves BTs as the only marine chapter unable to completely arrive via drop pod (because the EC can't take a retinue).

3) Would you allow all marine ICs without retinues to attach to units before the game only in order to use Drop Pods? This obviously allows regular marine armies to do without Command Squads in order to allow their ICs to land via Drop Pod.

4) Would you allow all ICs in all armies to start attached to units in reserve?



I don't think there is necessarily an easy answer (they all have pros and cons). I'm just curious as to what someone with a dissenting opinion would choose to do and why.

This one gets my vote. Kinda sucks for DA/BA players, but most armies have some rule that's unfortunate for them. For tournaments, I dislike changing rules, in the absence of a contradiction.

I don't see how the 'effects' of this to one army vs another are relevant. There are plenty of blanket rules that make some armies better than others. Not every army have access to "melta" weapons, skimmers, transports etc.

Granted the situation arose from SM Drop Pod armies but that's where the decision would need to be made. In an effort of fairness you grant this decision to all armies and then so be it. I don't see how it would need to make all armies "better" in order for it to be "fair".

No one is trying to make the SM 'better', they are trying to come up with a decision on how to handle a particular situation. Big difference.

Because we're talking about modifying the rules, in order to grant a couple armies the ability to do something that, by RAW, they cannot do. The question was whether, as a tournament judege, the rules should be amended.

Most armies have differences, yes. But those are designer-introduced differences. Like them or not, it's the ruleset we've chosen to play by. But most of the time, when going to a tournament, you won't come up against a legitimized house rule that gives one or two armies an extra advantage, not included in the basic rules.



On the contrary: the proposed "handling" of this situation does indeed make things "better" for DA & BA players, by effectively writing in a rule for their benefit.

But at the same time, by sticking with the RAW in this case we're effectively saying that only vanilla marine chapters (and Space Wolves) have the ability to bring a fully drop pod borne force, something that is pretty clearly not correct by the designer's intent (I think a vast majority of players would agree with that statement).


That's why I kind of lean towards allowing BA & DAs (and the Emperor's Champion in BT armies) to join dro pod units before the game but only those armies and only in the case of drop pods.

While it is a little inconsistent the ruling affects the fewest number of armies as possible but still allows DAs & BAs (and Templars) to field full Drop Pod armies if they want (something I think most players would agree should be allowed).


The stance I'm thinking of is less of a tournament judge springing this ruling on players but more of a tournament organizer making a ruling before the tournie that makes the most people happy about playing in the tournament.

Look out side the box. It's not improving more than fixing. Is bringing those particular armies up to speed with the other books. If that means to one that they're now better then I guess so be it. But realize that others are going to see it as the effected armies are "catching up".

And again as Yak and I have pointed out several times this is an opinion as to how we would handle it if we were organizing a tournament BEFORE the situation arises in said tourney. We are by no means saying that this is RAW. Yak is a smart guy and has been able to take ideas such as my idea for a Dakkadakka style FAQ (Yak FAQ) and this is one of those situations that I believe would benefit from a revision. Not to give the Dark Angels or Blood Angels MORE of a benefit but to at least FIX an obvious problem.

I have been thinking about this. And what it comes down to is... I don't know.

I know *how* I would decide, but I really don't have enough familiarity with enough races/codices to be able to judge how much of a difference this will make. Or how much of a difference *not* doing it will make.

I know that it will make the BA DA armies stronger, and I know it will have absolutely no effect on the Tyranid army. But that doesn't necessarily mean it should not be used.

I brought up my 'objection' not because I felt the ruling (any of them) were not correct; just that people seemed to feel that if they make the ruling available to all armies, then it was a fair decision.

Yak, you last post is the kind of logic I would want to use to make the decision. Letting some armies be playable, without making other armies be overpowered. I just don't know enough to tell if what you suggest accomplishes that.

I'm gonna agree w/ Yak's ruling on this one. It makes sense, I don't think it is that overpowering as SM's can do it already and it looks like an oversight to me on the part of the design team to not allow it for DA/BA/Emp. Champ.

Off topic: Yak, if you are ever up to SLO to visit Matt Reid, let me know, I'd love to get a game in.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Maybe we could find someone from the boards that may be able to test it out? Anyone know of anyone running a tourney in the next month or so?

Et tu, Yakface? Yup, we're saying that. And it's something that BA/DA players would be aware of, and have to plan for accordingly. Just because it's a) inconvenient and/or b) inconsistent with other dexes, doesn't mean we arbitrarily change it. I'm pretty sure GW didn't mean for Ogryn to be utterly worthless, but I'm not asking for "Immune to Instant Death", even though it was handed out to special characters in the new dexes like candy. Nor do I beg for a SoB statline for my stormtroopers, who deserve it.

We have the RAW. The RAW provides that, for whatever reason, these armies aren't given quite the same options as normal SM armies. It may well be an oversight, in which case GW can exercise their "newly announced" FAQ policy to fix it.