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Against anything without psychic defense, Lash is still really nasty. It is a very powerful effect on a powerful model.

Unfortunately the rest of the army kinda sucks. But, such is life. No more playing chaos for a while for me.

Posted By Blackheart666 on 09/09/2007 4:58 PM

Posted By zaqzaq on 09/09/2007 4:24 PM
Even SAFH marines can have a psychic hood.

correct. it's just broken enough to make sure the people with the weaker lists in tournaments get herded into Nidzilla, Mecheldar and SSMAFH like they are supposed to be.

Forgive the newbish and OT questions but....

SAFH? SSMAFH?

I have no idea what either of these mean.

Shooty Army From Hell

Shooty Space Marine Army From Hell (I assume)

The lash does not put chaos over the top IMO.  It's a nice piece of wargear that chaos players should make use of and that everyone won't be so afraid of once they've all seen it a few times.  Drop pod armies were so scary 2 years ago and now they're niddle rung at best.  The lash armies still are going to play second fiddle to MC, Mech Eldar, and SAFH marines.  As will everything else until new codexs are written. 

In my games, the lash has been absolutely game-breaking.  Japanese players have a different style of play to be honest that would cause most NA players to call them newbs, and part of it is due to how the rules translate and their purist attitude.

At any rate, the lash completely used and abused my opponents.  The command squad and terminator squad that was pushed far out of useful range every turn, the assault squad that deepstriked behind terrain away from the defiler, lashed into the open, blasted into oblivion.  The devastators moved behind the building they were hiding in, getting pinned, failing the difficult terrain check to get back in successfully as a squad, spending another turn getting in, only to get pushed back again.  Then there's the poor dark reapers and devastators that get lashed within charge range of my brutal infiltrating chosen for a first-turn charge.

I'm able to neutralize units I can't kill easily, kill units that worry me, and in general just screw everything up for the enemy.  I've lashed terminators into range of my plasmaguns, blown them apart, then lashed them out, sometimes pinning them but continuing to move them about.

I need to get back to the states and see what goes on there, but I feel the power is rather unfair.  Movement-affecting spells in fantasy are extremely powerful, and until now in 40k we've had nothing much like it, and now we see why moving the enemy can be so strong.

-Spellbound

Well, I run a list with a prince and a sorcerer both with the lash and have some experience playing with it and letting people play against me and my other armies ( i have enough to know how guard, necrons, marines and eldar can fare against it) however, I do not run my list as a tourny army or use the lash to its full effects.

I'll admit that it does seem like the "all powerfull" power, however i have found some major ways to avoid its use. 

1) TRANSPORTS!!!!  if you run a shooty list, no matter what it is, use your vehicles to your advantage.  If there is a daemon prince, block its line of sight.  Granted you cant kill it now, but it cant hit your heavy weapon squads with the cheese whip.  On top of that, with daemon princes scaled back the way they are from the last codex, a librarian/necron shooting/guard heavy weapons/bright lances can easily take them out. 

If its a char in a squad its a bit harder, but just hit that squad first.  If its an independant char. you run into a little bit of a problem.  The only logical way to deal with this issue is to kill everything else and block los with vehicles.

2) NO LONGER invincible gods.  Chaos overall has been scaled back on power, bumped up on resiliance, and tweaked so each one fills more of a niche like eldar.  again, heavy weapons can take out daemon princes easily, (3+ sv 5+ involn if they are slaneesh) just nuke em.  If they run a lord the best thing they can get is a daemon weapon.  just hit it with your best combat ability and screw em over. 

3) ITS SHOOTING!!!!  if you tie up both of the whips (if they run two) which is what I do with my necrons (scarabs on the sorcerer and wraiths/destroyer lord on the daemon prince) they cant use the spell.  I understand this is easier said than done, and that chaos is vicious in combat (i run an all combat army) but it is possible and i have done it to my own army.

4) FINALY! all you need to remember is other armies have in my opinion equal abilities...

ELDAR: undestroyable tanks

NECRONS: warp around in and out of combat... oh, isnt that basicly the same thing but better?

IG: huge numbers and huge tank (i run close to 300 guys in a 2000 pt army)

SPACE MARINES: too many configurations to mention... A librarian that can re-roll ALMOST ALL!  rolls, 6 heavy weapon squads, 6 dreadnoughts...

NIDS:  monsterous creatures that dont die (you should just kill the daemon prince/sorcerer asap)  and endless swarms

ORKS:  ... just need a new codex... but have mass numbers of vehicles to block line of sight cheaply.

All im saying is yes, its powerfull, its usefull, you have to know how to deal with it before the game starts, but its fairly easy to deal with and no worse than some of the other abilities that other armies have.

Guard should have enough infantry or tanks to ignore it if you try.  If you

Well, I run a list with a prince and a sorcerer both with the lash and have some experience playing with it and letting people play against me and my other armies ( i have enough to know how guard, necrons, marines and eldar can fare against it) however, I do not run my list as a tourny army or use the lash to its full effects.

I'll admit that it does seem like the "all powerfull" power, however i have found some major ways to avoid its use. 

1) TRANSPORTS!!!!  if you run a shooty list, no matter what it is, use your vehicles to your advantage.  If there is a daemon prince, block its line of sight.  Granted you cant kill it now, but it cant hit your heavy weapon squads with the cheese whip.  On top of that, with daemon princes scaled back the way they are from the last codex, a librarian/necron shooting/guard heavy weapons/bright lances can easily take them out. 

If its a char in a squad its a bit harder, but just hit that squad first.  If its an independant char. you run into a little bit of a problem.  The only logical way to deal with this issue is to kill everything else and block los with vehicles.

2) NO LONGER invincible gods.  Chaos overall has been scaled back on power, bumped up on resiliance, and tweaked so each one fills more of a niche like eldar.  again, heavy weapons can take out daemon princes easily, (3+ sv 5+ involn if they are slaneesh) just nuke em.  If they run a lord the best thing they can get is a daemon weapon.  just hit it with your best combat ability and screw em over. 

3) ITS SHOOTING!!!!  if you tie up both of the whips (if they run two) which is what I do with my necrons (scarabs on the sorcerer and wraiths/destroyer lord on the daemon prince) they cant use the spell.  I understand this is easier said than done, and that chaos is vicious in combat (i run an all combat army) but it is possible and i have done it to my own army.

4) FINALY! all you need to remember is other armies have in my opinion equal abilities...

ELDAR: undestroyable tanks

NECRONS: warp around in and out of combat... oh, isnt that basicly the same thing but better?

IG: huge numbers and huge tank (i run close to 300 guys in a 2000 pt army)

SPACE MARINES: too many configurations to mention... A librarian that can re-roll ALMOST ALL!  rolls, 6 heavy weapon squads, 6 dreadnoughts...

NIDS:  monsterous creatures that dont die (you should just kill the daemon prince/sorcerer asap)  and endless swarms

ORKS:  ... just need a new codex... but have mass numbers of vehicles to block line of sight cheaply.

All im saying is yes, its powerfull, its usefull, you have to know how to deal with it before the game starts, but its fairly easy to deal with and no worse than some of the other abilities that other armies have.

Guard should have enough infantry or tanks to ignore it if you try.  If you

This is interesting. Care to elaborate?

The first problem is that the game is converted into centimeters - but not really.  It's not 2.54 or even 2.5 per inch, they just for simplicity's sake double all the numbers - so models move 12 cm. instead of 6", etc.  This causes a number of different effects.

1)  When the English version calls for forces to be deployed 12" from the table edge, they assume a 4' wide board, leaving 24" between forces.  In Japan this is of course shortened to 24cm. deployment zones.  Add to that the fact that models move shorter distances and a model will never make it across the board, whereas in a normal US table, any infantry model starting at the edge of a 12" deployment zone can reach the other side with 6 turns of forward movement, provided they're not interrupted.  Japanese "ideal" table width is 1m., which still leaves troops slightly further than 24" [comparatively, since it's 52cm and not 48] and they're still moving only 12cm. a turn.

2)  ALL weapon ranges are shortened.  A model carrying a missle launcher only shoots 96cm. instead of 48", so even on a 1m. wide board, they're very likely to not reach the other side of the table if they're back towards the edge, whereas on a US table you can't avoid it.  Most tables are actually more than 1m. wide, so you're often out of range.

 

What this amounts to basically is that EVERYONE advances.  Because your weapons will be out of range otherwise, everyone has to move a little bit to get into effective range.  "Firefight" range is ridiculously close and if you want to assault, you have to HOOF it every turn to get there.  It's actually very unfair for most assault armies that don't use infiltrate because they've got much further to go and move slower getting there.  Also in objective capture missions, units that we would otherwise spend 3 turns shooting with before moving towards the objective will be out of range the first turn, and in order to make it by the 6th have to spend a lot more time moving and a lot less time shooting. 

Thus, Japanese armies tend to be a lot of "balance".  You can't depend on assault because you'll be shot to pieces and will take a long time to make it there [thus assault is left to fast attack choices and infiltrators], and since everyone is advancing most units are geared towards short-range firefights.  When I came with an Emperor's Children army based on infiltrating and tearing them apart, I was shocked to see everyone moving TOWARDS me.  And if you make a really serious long-range shooty army, they will probably not enjoy the game as they try to advance on you and just get blown to pieces.

Lash of Submission really screws with their armies then because they depend a lot on moving forward to get into range, and are expecting you to do so as well.  Also, 40k is fairly new in Japan as compared to fantasy, and since in fantasy there's a LOT of moving around in and around enemy units, they kind of expect the same in 40k - a big melee of shooting and assault and grappling for the objectives in a fun and interesting back-and-forth game.  Pushing those units back 2d6" so they're out of range to shoot and in range of your heavy weapons takes a lot of the game out.  I kept one guy's command squad out of the game entirely just with one sorceror with the lash, and in another cackled maniacally as I clustered his terminators together and pushed them out of range, then shot them with plasma cannons. 

On the other hand they handle rules disputes more gracefully than anyone.  "We don't agree?  Ok, let's roll."  They come to this decision after like ten seconds of debate usually, and it's refreshing to see.

-Spellbound

That's really interesting how just one tiny change has such huge tactical repercussions. Thanks for the details, Spellbound.

Honestly, I think anyone using Lash/Lash is looking at it the wrong way.

(and I REFUSE to call it that stupid Fzor-whatever).

Las/Lash is a waste. Your Daemon Princes are TOUGH, but they could be SO MUCH TOUGHER.

The truly broken combo is 2 D=Princes. One Slaaneshi with a lash & the other Tzeentch with Warptime and (choose your favorite). I like Gift of Chaos, Doombolt and... err... I forget the name (I'm at work with no codex handy)... the Assault 3 shot...

Of course, you have to put wings on both.

Deploy them apart, but not too far... about 6-8 inches on each side of the center of the table (or on each side of your first "mark.").

Fly both up 12" and LASH your target towards the Tzeentch Prince.

Now, there are a lot of suppositions on this... You might not get to do that until Turn 2, or you might have to give up first turn so the enemy is close enough, etc... but it's effective.

What's that? Your Space marine Commander is attacking my Tzeentch Prince? With a Power Fist? Oh, NO!!!!!!

Let me just roll my 4+ invulnerable saves against those VERY FEW hits you'll manage to succeed with...

Now, come to chaos and be my SPAWN!!!!!
(or)
Hey... Didn't these organs used to by INSIDE your armor?
(or)
Heh heh... Your Commander just made a squishy noise.
(or)
What? You have a Trygon? Let me just use that ability from when I casted WARPTIME earlier and reroll all my failed Hits & Wounds...

We've had great success with a single lash in our tests (my gaming group). FAR better than 2 Lashes...

Also, you have to remember that Lash has other uses.
I Pulled a MEGAFEX out of cover once & OBLITERATED it with Lascannons from 2 full sized squads of... well... Obliterators.

"Oooh. That Fex has 4 Wounds and a 7 toughness...

Watch this..."

Lash is not broken, but it IS close to that point. The 24" range is almost GREAT... almost.
2d6 movement with a successful pshchic test? I'm going to average 7" on my rolls. I have to have the spells target CLOSE to where i want him to bo for it to be successful.


...and, as far as creating a a shield wall of lesser creatures to avoid the Lash... I don't think it'll work. As i said, I don't have the codex with me, but I think the wording of it kind of intimates otherwise.

Also, unless you can show me a FAQ that states otherwise, in my group, we decided against allowing the Lash to be used on models in HtH.
Here's why:

At one point in the description, it says that the Lash may be used in the shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon.
...ANOTHER ranged weapon.
In order to have ANOTHER ranged weapon, you first have to have A ranged weapon. Therefore, the Lash counts as a Ranged weapon (and you can't use those to target a unit in combat).



Eric

I finally got to play against it in Baltimore and w/o all the debate of how nasty it could be, Greg Sparks used it in the most non questionable rule interpretation. Despite me having Eldrad on the table, he got the power off 2 out of 3 attemtps. One attempt he Lashed a Guardian unit towards his Greater Demon and the other was against my Seer Council who were holding a loot counter at the end of the game. He even let me move my own models. He just rolled 2d6 and pointed the direction in which I needed to move the models. I ended up losing the main objective of the game, but it was not due to shrewd readings of the ability. While I believe he could have been more devilish with the ability (as he fielded 5 Obliterators), he opted not to and the ability was a very nice complement to his army. I hope to see more 'sporting' uses of the Lash. We'll see at a local event...

But the possibilities for abuse are both game breaking and amusing!

Charged by my Beserkers? Fzorgle! You will be charged again next turn by my Furious Repeating Charge!
My Oblits are stuck in combat with Scarabs? Fzorgle! Not when the Scarabs love the great taste of leaving combat to jump into dangerous terrain on the lava tables.
I have been charged by your Slugga Boys? Fzorgle! I think you'll find they prefer to stand in a circle front of my Defiler.
And let's not forget that if normal targeting rules are superceded, you can always fzorgle independant characters out of attached units and into harm's way.

Why would normal shooting rules be superceded? And, if an IC is part of a unit, why would be be singled out? The IC and the entire unit would be affected.
Page 52 of the BGB states:
"Unless specified otherwise, psychic abilities are subject to the usual Shooting rules, so the Psyker must be able to see the target, all attacks must be directed against a single target unit, etc."

Please note that the phrase "etc." is part of the quote, and NOT inserted by me. I would take that to mean that "shooting" into melee with a psy power is taboo since that is one of the usual Shooting rules. Unless the power specifically states that it can. I see no such endorsement on the Lash, except that it is used in the Shooting phase instead of the model "using another ranged weapon".

For example, under "Gifts of Chaos" it specifically states that the psyker model may be in CC, as can the target, and the psyker can still use the power.

I'm still of the opinion that the armys most effected by the lash have the best tools for getting rid of it. Any tau or IG line could kill both princes first turn without really wasting an inordinate ammount of firepower and since this does little to the top tier armys themselves I don't see a huge issue. The only high tier army it does much too is necron destroyer lists but given their rarity i don't forsee that coming up to much.

Sarigar wrote:I finally got to play against it in Baltimore and w/o all the debate of how nasty it could be, Greg Sparks used it in the most non questionable rule interpretation. Despite me having Eldrad on the table, he got the power off 2 out of 3 attemtps. One attempt he Lashed a Guardian unit towards his Greater Demon and the other was against my Seer Council who were holding a loot counter at the end of the game. He even let me move my own models. He just rolled 2d6 and pointed the direction in which I needed to move the models. I ended up losing the main objective of the game, but it was not due to shrewd readings of the ability. While I believe he could have been more devilish with the ability (as he fielded 5 Obliterators), he opted not to and the ability was a very nice complement to his army. I hope to see more 'sporting' uses of the Lash. We'll see at a local event...

I always have the opponent move their own models out of politeness, but I will sometimes say "move them this way - and cluster them together." Nobody seems to have a problem with that. The only time I actually have someone pack in like that is if I have something ready and waiting to shoot them with template weapons.

-Spellbound

It's called Lash. The other term is stupid.

Use Lash, not what fanboi idiot X came up with as a 'fun' term to whine, bitch, and moan about.

I don't use Lash, because it sucks.

Warptime (also known as Warptime) is superior.

You're an angry, angry poster, Stelek. I fail to see how your post is helpful, and it's definitely lacking in social graces. Criticism is fine, but in this case it's off-topic (saying the power sucks isn't exactly advice on how to use it) and confrontational.

I'm not sure what kind of chip you have on your shoulder, but keep that attitude away from Dakka. This is a warning.

Thank you.

DAAAYYUUUM, Looks like you just got *FZORGLED* by the mod!

And how can you say warptime is better? Fzorgling has utility in about every aspect of the game. Controlling movement and objectives, and clustering troops together to suck up templates, I don't see how you can go wrong. The demon prince may not be as good in this respect as he can always be singled out, but a Fzorglelorcerer would be able to use his IC status to shield himself from being attacked, while still being in the best place to fzorgle.

Wow Iorek, so many things to say, but they're just not worth speaking.

Pretty red color.

Your welcome.

whitedragon wrote:DAAAYYUUUM, Looks like you just got *FZORGLED* by the mod!

Yeah. Funny guys around here.

whitedragon wrote:And how can you say warptime is better? Fzorgling has utility in about every aspect of the game. Controlling movement and objectives, and clustering troops together to suck up templates, I don't see how you can go wrong. The demon prince may not be as good in this respect as he can always be singled out, but a Fzorglelorcerer would be able to use his IC status to shield himself from being attacked, while still being in the best place to fzorgle.

I think Warptime is better because of the way I play. I think Lash is horrible because you can see it coming, and you can deal with it.

So far, I've never seen a Chaos army with 80 guys moving forward to cover the Sorcerers, probably because it isn't a good army.

So, what am I to worry about? It's a gimmick. In a year, everyone will be used to it, and will be able to deal with it.

I'm ahead of the curve? I can beat it and enjoy seeing 300+ points worth of guys running around trying to get my armies to move, and not actually doing what Chaos HQ's do best which is crush you in close combat.

I think Warptime is better because of the way I play. I think Lash is horrible because you can see it coming, and you can deal with it.

Care to explain why this doesn't apply to Warp Time?

I can beat it and enjoy seeing 300+ points worth of guys running around trying to get my armies to move, and not actually doing what Chaos HQ's do best which is crush you in close combat.

I would assume that those 300+ points worth of guys are going to be doing things other than babysitting the Sorc. If you're moving into Lash range, then you're moving towards the enemy--is there something else a stompy unit should be doing?

One of the things that makes Lash so awesome is that you can use it to create h2h combats that block line of sight to the people behind. 1st turn of the game, a super expensive devastator squad gets pulled into charge range of some infiltrating chosen. The chosen charge, and block line of sight while they chew through the devastators, crushing them on the next turn in time to summon daemons, terminators and all charge in with the raptors or whatever other unit was using the assault as cover. It's like using the other guy's troops as expendable Rhinos for terrain.

I use a Daemon Prince (not always with lash) and a sorcerer with Lash and every time, the sorcerer gets someone deep striking next to him or charged by a fast attack unit. People really put effort on killing him, and that allows the rest of you army to do their job.

Phryxis wrote:

Fzorgle = Lash of Submission (in case that hasn't permeated Dakka yet).

I was at the FLGS today, and a couple guys there said they'd played a game against one another, one with a dual Fzorgle list.  Neither of them seemed too blown away by the effects.  I was skeptical, but it prompts me to ask:

Has anybody gotten some Fzorgle experience under their belt, and formed an opinion?  Is this thing as broken as I (and others) have been shrieking, or will it turn out to be less?

it's not enough to make up for the glaring deficiencies of the rest of the army list.

I'm still painting my CSM armies.. but as far as playing... I'm switching to nids until Chaos gets an army worth playing again.

"If you can't beat them, field more Genestealers than they do."

Asmodai wrote:Shooty Army From Hell

Shooty Space Marine Army From Hell (I assume)

yes

SDEAFH - Shooty Dark Eldar Army From Hell
SIGAFH - Shooty Imperial Guard Army From Hell

etc etc.

Iorek wrote:You're an angry, angry poster, Stelek. I fail to see how your post is helpful, and it's definitely lacking in social graces. Criticism is fine, but in this case it's off-topic (saying the power sucks isn't exactly advice on how to use it) and confrontational.

I'm not sure what kind of chip you have on your shoulder, but keep that attitude away from Dakka. This is a warning.

Thank you.

Saying that the power "sucks" is no more or less helpful than the endless whining about the power (of which fzorgle came out of). It's also no more or less confrontational and angry than most of the postings on this forum (re: I won't play against this army, glorified proxying etc.)

IMNSHO you're trying to mod on someone that you've had a personal issue with in the past.

And THAT is an attitude that needs to be kept away from -everywhere-.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:

I think Warptime is better because of the way I play. I think Lash is horrible because you can see it coming, and you can deal with it.

Care to explain why this doesn't apply to Warp Time?

It applies to all psychic powers.

Warptime has proven itself for what I use the DP's for.

Lash hasn't.

I can beat it and enjoy seeing 300+ points worth of guys running around trying to get my armies to move, and not actually doing what Chaos HQ's do best which is crush you in close combat.

I would assume that those 300+ points worth of guys are going to be doing things other than babysitting the Sorc. If you're moving into Lash range, then you're moving towards the enemy--is there something else a stompy unit should be doing?

Blackheart: Triple-posting ftw?

"No more or less helpful"? Perhaps you've forgotten that said whining posts came attached to descriptions of what Lash could be used to do.

As for "no more or less confrontational," I consider "fanboi idiot X" to be a fair bit more confrontational than the examples you've given.

Stelek:

It applies to all psychic powers.

Warptime has proven itself for what I use the DP's for.

Lash hasn't.

Doesn't that mean that what you said earlier isn't actually an argument against Lash?

I meant the Sorcs themselves...wasted points as all they can do is Lash. If you think they're a threat in close combat...I wanna play my IG against you, they take Chaos Sorcs down pretty easy in CC--and that's pathetic.

A Lash Sorc is a mere 125 points. Overpriced for their mediocre CC ability, to be sure, but reasonable for mediocre CC ability + Lash.

Then of course, there is the babysitting units...and what happens when they're beaten off. Just give up, I guess, since putting all that effort into Lash makes the rest of your army very suspect in the 'holding our own' department.

I don't understand where you're getting this whole "putting all that effort into Lash" thing from. You don't need to put any effort into Lash: take your ordinary army, add a Lash Sorc. What effort? The rest of the army doesn't need to be any different from what it would be otherwise.

Let's see, a standard config of dual Raptors/Sorcs and 2 expendable Rhinos costs:

220
220
145
145
035
035
==
800 points

Which two Smurf assault squads can whittle down to nothing, for a little more than half the points.

How's this good? Seems craptastical to me man.

Wait, did you just construct a craptastic babysitting force and then declare it craptastic? Wow, big surprise. This is a strawman. You field a Chaos army that you consider natsy, and it has plenty of foot-sloggers. Why not use 800 points of that instead, hmm?

Also, who needs dual Sorcs? One is sufficient. The other slot can go to your DP of doom.

I get yelled at when I tell people to learn to play, and I'm not telling you that. I just think Lash is so obvious, and so dodge-able, that all I can assume is there's alot of theoryhammer going on on the internet and not enough Warhammer going on in local stores, cause I *tried* to lose to Lash armies and found I couldn't because for some reason

How does that prove anything? You've already told us that you can't lose ever.

Samwise158 wrote:One of the things that makes Lash so awesome is that you can use it to create h2h combats that block line of sight to the people behind. 1st turn of the game, a super expensive devastator squad gets pulled into charge range of some infiltrating chosen. The chosen charge, and block line of sight while they chew through the devastators, crushing them on the next turn in time to summon daemons, terminators and all charge in with the raptors or whatever other unit was using the assault as cover. It's like using the other guy's troops as expendable Rhinos for terrain.

I use a Daemon Prince (not always with lash) and a sorcerer with Lash and every time, the sorcerer gets someone deep striking next to him or charged by a fast attack unit. People really put effort on killing him, and that allows the rest of you army to do their job.

What happens when they figure out to just shoot your assault troops dead, and let the Sorcerer lash you while you pummel the pathetic Chaos rabble into ruin?

How's this for fun.

I intentionally sacrifice my assault troops to your assault troops, bringing ruin to both our assault forces.

This doesn't deter me from shooting your army dead, since Chaos isn't a big shooty army and everyone else is.

Assault with your remnant assault troops and Chaos Sorc? If I'm not Tau, you'll lose. If I'm me playing my Tau, you'll get picked off at some point.

All around, I think the whole kit and kaboodle in one egg basket is always bad for armies.

Please note that in a Tournament situation, now that the 'shock' of Lash has worn off...Lash armies are gonna get beat down alot from this point onward.

Since I was referring to the fanboi idiot who came up with that word to whine, moan, and bitch about a really poorly written power in a extremely poorly written Codex; I don't really see any reason not to make a stand and tell them I don't want to hear it.

They need to suck less, and Lash won't be as big an issue which is all alot of people can talk about on other sites. I don't want to see it here. There's enough whining about the Falcon, but at least that pissing match has some kick to it!

Stelek, it doesn't matter how justified you think you are in branding someone a "fanboi idiot" based on a jokey term he coined. I may or may not agree with you (note that I'm not using "fzorgle" myself), but the simple fact is that the rules of etiquette that are in play on this forum do not allow you or me to say it. Live with it or leave.