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Option B. I'd let my opponent fire his Bolter at full range with his Reaper Autocannon after movement.

40K rules are very loosely written to begin with. I won't go into RAW with their rules until they actually take the time to properly write the rules.

You don't need to waste time and sense on a RAW explanation to conclude that Terminators cannot use their bolters at full range when moving.

Reasoning they can fire Heavy Weapons with no problem, yet there is an issue firing Rapid Fire weapons is..... intuitive rules writing????

JohnHwangDD wrote:Normal Termies shouldn't be taking Combi-weapons that RF anyways, so this should be moot.

So how do loyalist terminator commanders with combi-plasma fire? Any players (particularly Death Wing I'd guess) care to share? Or does the loyalist termi entry specify (i.e. stable platform = always stationary (how I used to remember it being))?

- Salvage

Sarigar: No, not 'intuitive rules writing'. Just the same sort of reasoning that results in the conclusion that heavy weapons may be used while moving carefully applied to rapid fire weapons.

Option A, but the rule should be changed.

I play my loyalist combi-plasma as I play every other rapid fire weapon. When my pod land I can only rapid-fire up to 12 inches, if I walk I can only rapid-fire up to 12 inches. If I stay still I can fire once at 24". I wish the rule was different, but it's not. Until there's a rule that states loyal terminators can move and fire rapid-fire weapons at their maximum range, I won't play them as such.

IMHO, no shooting by Chaos terminators on the move up to 24". The rules are pretty clear. I'm just happy those guys can charge, since IIRC, they couldn't before.

A.

The rules are very clear.

ender502

In a tournament - which I don't do - I'd have to agree that A seems to be the RAW.

I voted for B, though, since that's how it would likely get handled in my basement. If they can move and shoot a heavy weapon at full effectiveness, I'd be hard pressed to argue that they couldn't do the same with a bolter.

I say likely because I haven't gamed with my chaos-friend for a long time. I may get a chance to confront this issue next week, though.

I'd laugh at people telling you you can't use rapid fire weapons and charge on termies but you can fire heavy weapons and charge.

Main rules say you cannot fire rapid fire weapons.

Codex rules say you can fire rapid fire weapons if you are in terminator armor.

Counting as stationary, not there. It's an oversight, but frankly I've never heard of anyone saying you can't rapid fire terminator plasmaguns if they moved.

Seems silly, GW will force you to allow it at GT's, and if it's a friendly game why are you rules lawyering?

*shrug* Seems like an acrimonious post with no purpose.

Stelek wrote:I'd laugh at people telling you you can't use rapid fire weapons and charge on termies but you can fire heavy weapons and charge.

You clearly can fire rapid weapons and charge. It states that in the codex discription of terminator armor. The point is that it doesn't say that you can move and fire rapid fire weapons at full range. So by RAW, chaos terminators with combi bolters (rapid fire weapons) would have to remain stationary inorder to fire 24". That is the crux of the debate here.

Obviously, Termies should be erratta'd to be S&P. That would solve things for everybody.

Yes, but GW doesn't write FAQ's anymore. If they did, it would eliminate a lot of problems and with the problems a lot of complaining from us.

You guys are starting to convince me that Terminators cannot move and shoot their bolters at 24".

I still think it's stupid that non-deepstriking terminators have such a weak basic weapon with which to march down the table.

But it may very well be what was intended.

I love that it's 35 v 35 down the middle. It was skewed one way or another before.

Oh I know what RAW says, I know what GW enforces.

Which is RAI. So why is this a subject?

I guess I'm wondering if it's so important in friendly games, that people aren't misunderstanding the concept of friendly games?

Stelek wrote:Oh I know what RAW says, I know what GW enforces.

Which is RAI. So why is this a subject?

I guess I'm wondering if it's so important in friendly games, that people aren't misunderstanding the concept of friendly games?

This "topic" is a series of polls I've created (see the sticky post at the top of the forum for links to rest of the polls) to get an understanding of how people play the game of 40K regardless of the RAW.

I personally find it very handy to get a gauge of what percentage of players I encounter are going to expect to play the game a certain way. That way I can adjust my expectations properly and also know where and when I am likely to encounter rules issues in a game (and therefore avoid them before they start).


As you can see from the poll results at the top of this thread, the vote is currently split exactly down the middle of the road 50% choose to play one way the other 50% choose to play the other way.

That lets me know that in a tournament I can expect roughly half of the players I run into to think they can move their Chaos Terminators and fire their bolters up to 24" and the other half of players I run into will play the opposite way.

Personally I find that type of information useful, but if you don't no big deal, just ignore these threads I make.

Was just wondering--I bet if you polled 'pigs fly' or 'pink sky' you'd get a similar split.

But not every issue is a 50/50 split and that's the whole point of such a poll.


Often people say: "Everyone I've ever seen plays this way."

But without some sort of poll like this you never really know. Obviously the sample group is very small and biased, but even so I think you can draw some useful conclusions from them.

I'd let people shoot them 24" at me (but would not play mine that way in a tournament).

Anyone think of another unit in the game that can move and fire heavies but not rapid fire? (e.g. bikes or jetbikes or Tau jetpacks?).

Just seems slowed to me that a machinegun would cause problems for a moving tactical dreadnought but an autocannon wouldn't.

Slow and Purposeful

I voted "B", even knowing it's against RAW. It isn't an issue for me, as all of my Wolf Guard Termies have either Storm Bolters or Assault Cannons.

If I were to model any Wolf Guard Termies with, say, combi-plasmas, then I'd use them as "A". If I were to then run into another player using Combi-weapons on Termies I would discuss with them how they wanted to play it.

By the way, I'm really enjoying all of these topics. Most of them so far are situations I haven't run into before so it's nice to see what I might have to deal with.

IHMO this was not a typo.

Chaos terminators are 25% cheaper (or loyalist are 33% more expensive) also, you only need to take 3+ in a unit.

I think that is explanation enough as to why they can't fire combi-bolters 24" after moving.

I challenge anyone to give me a decent explanation why chaos termies are no 'nerfed' because I actually think they are still a steal at 30pts.

I may have missed something, but...

1) The description in the BGB for rapid fire is very clear; if you are 12" or under away from your target, you must fire twice, if you are from 12.1" to the weapons max range, you can only fire once, and then only if you don't move.

2) The entry for the Chaos Terminator Armour just as clearly states that they can move and fire heavy weapons, and move, fire, and assault with heavy and rapid fire weapons. (Clearly, if you are assaulting you are within 6" and therefore the argument here about firing once at maximum range after moving does not apply).

The fact that they stated "heavy" weapons in one clause and "heavy and rapid fire" weapons in the other clearly indicates that all other rules for rapid fire are to be followed, or else the sentence would say "heavy and rapid fire weapons" in both halves of the sentence.

So, to cut a long story short (too late ), I vote A. You cannot move and then fire rapid fire weapons at over 12"

Viperion

yakface wrote:
Except for bikes, Dark & Blood Angel terminators (who have the same rules as the Chaos Termies).

But my point was simply that the loyalist marines can fire with their storm bolters before charging in. I know it isn't "rapid firing" but you seemed to imply that the Chaos Terminators were getting something extra that their loyalist counterparts weren't getting, which may be technically true (with the old SM codex wording, of course), but in pratical terms the loyalist terminator armor is far superior because they carry storm bolters which don't suffer from this rapid fire issue.

Not that it matters, but yes Chaos termies have an advantage b/c they get two twin linked shots instead of two shots at under 12" (meaning before charge)

Loyalist = 1.33 Hits Per model shooting SB
Chaos = 1.77 Hits Per model CB

Again, that doesn't have anything to do with anything here as far as the vote goes, but I don't think it is fair to say that loyalist armor is 'far superior' because how often are you shooting termies from more than 12" away? Sure it happens quite a bit but not as often as you are shooting from less than 12" and then charging in to HTH.

Longshot wrote:I'd let people shoot them 24" at me (but would not play mine that way in a tournament).

Anyone think of another unit in the game that can move and fire heavies but not rapid fire? (e.g. bikes or jetbikes or Tau jetpacks?).

Just seems slowed to me that a machinegun would cause problems for a moving tactical dreadnought but an autocannon wouldn't.

Much as I appreciate the casual use of the word 'slowed' (God Bless Dakka, and Merry Christmas), it can almost make sense. Firing any kind of automatic rifle at range takes careful aim, so even on an advanced exosuit you need to remain stationary. However when firing assault cannons (which are only 24"), cyclone missile launchers or reaper autocannons the terminator can get away with firing at range because the recoil/ mass is irrelevant and he just has to let it rip. Note that cyclone missile launchers and reaper autocannons are both multi-shot weapons, they aren't aim and fire more like let it rip and see what happens.

And as far as bikes and Tau suits are concerned, those specifically say in (even the BGB I think) that they can move and fire with no penalty, with no mention of termie armour, which someone has probably mentioned upwards.

It does seem stupid to me tactically that they are limited in their use, but it also maintains the theme of the chaos book with a reliance on close combat and fire fight ie lots of special weapon-esque weaponry in HQ, Troop and Elites, and puts all those icons and combi-weapons to good use.

TL Bolters at 12"? This thread is making me want to paint up Chaos again.

Like many people, option A is correct but just screams wrong. So, despite liking a RAW approach (esp being a big fan of board games) I will go with B - it just seems more right.

I don't understand:

The Rapid Fire rules on page 29 of the rulebook say: "An infantry model armed with a rapid fire weapon can shoot twice at targets up to 12 [inches] away. If an infantry model has not moved, it may instead fire once at targets over 12 [inches] away, up to its maximum range."


The lastest Terminator armor rules say (page 86 of the Chaos Space Marine Codex): "Models in Terminator armor are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons."

These quotes seem mutually exclusive of each other.

The first one has to do with what your Rapid Fire options are when you have or have not moved and in relation to the distance from your target. The second quote has to do with what you may or may not do AFTER firing the rapid fire weapon...not before... (I'm ignoring the Heavy Weapon info, as it is inconsequential to the discussion at hand).

Let me explain.
The first one says that I can shoot you twice if you're 12" or less away, regardless of my movement. It also says that, if I don't move, I can shoot you up to 24" away. It says nothing about assaulting or terminators having special rules about this. As a result, it doesn't matter. Termies follow the same rules as everyone else.

The second quote (and let's ignore "rapid fire AND heavy weapons and presume they meant "rapid fire OR heavy weapons," just for the sake of discussion, since that is not the matter at hand) says that Terminators can assault after firing Rapid Fire weapons. It points this out because no other unit in the game has this ability unless they have a special rule allowing it.

NOTHING in the quoted rules allows option B. It only allows option A.

Seems like a no-brainer, to me.



Now, that being said, the RAW for Terminator armor:

The lastest Terminator armor rules say (page 86 of the Chaos Space Marine Codex): "Models in Terminator armor are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons."

This seems to indicate that this is their intent for ALL Terminators, not just Chaos. The wording is generic enough to cause potential problems when playing with/against Termies whose codex does not allow it. If I was playing AGAINST them, I'd allow them to do it. If I was playing them myself, I'd hope my opponent was sensible and generous enough to allow it without a problem, but I'd be prepared for possibility of them not allowing it.



Eric

After looking over the rules I tend to agree more with the "They can not fire once over 12" camp. The rules are clear and it appears (given the low points cost for Chaos Terminators) That this was the intention of the rules developers. This issues seems to be more of a 'The rules slightly change and I didn't notice this change so I will play as I have always played issues. I think RAW is very clear on this matter.

I would always ask, but with a default of "they can shoot 24" and walk." Only because it is logical. Spraying an automatic weapon at range compared to close up only means your unaimed bullets have a lot more area to spread out in, which makes the chance of a hit less. To me, the rules abstract that as "At 24" your spray has half the ability to hit as it would at half the distance." In otherwords, at 24" you only get one chance to hit, at 12" two. For the other heavy weapons, they are made to shoot very far, with recoil stabilization etc. to make up for it. So if a moving termie is fine to shoot an autocannon at 100%, he should be fine to shoot a bolter less effectively.
Now RAW, and if my opponant wanted to do it RAW, I would be fine with it. But I wouldn't complain if he wanted to send some shots at my girls from two feet away.