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I have always favoured measurement in wargames, having grown up in an atmosphere where it was the rule.

I know 40K makes a big thing of not allowing pre-measurement of shooting but it is allowed for movement, and can therefore permit the abuses mentioned above.

The easiest fix would be simply to allow everyone to measure as much as they want.

However quite a few players regard guessing ranges as an important part of the game.

Lord knows, I have been sorely tempted to aim at the nearby Glade Riders, but guess a range that should carry into the forest (and the treeman surfing in it) a couple of feet further back.

fellblade wrote:Lord knows, I have been sorely tempted to aim at the nearby Glade Riders, but guess a range that should carry into the forest (and the treeman surfing in it) a couple of feet further back.

I do that every single time the guy is dumb enough to put the glade riders there.

But if it's the first time I've played you (or the first time you've seen me use cannons), I'll generally warn you before you complete your move.

Unless you brought 2 treemen, then you get what's comin' to ya.

mauleed wrote:Except I know overguessing won't fail. It'll work great!

Cheating is intentionally breaking a rule. I've never seen any rule you break when you overguess.

If you target a unit then guess a range that you know will fail to hit them in order to hit a target out of LOS, then you may not be breaking any specific rule, but you certainly are going against the spirit of the rules.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Here are some of the more common cheats I have witnessed:

Roll more dice then supposed to for hitting and wounding enemy
Roll less dice when taking armor saves
Pickup dice very quickly including some that missed
Move units extra distance during movement phase to help reach assault
Loaded dice
Claim additional wargear not actually on army list

- G

Ozymandias wrote:

mauleed wrote:Except I know overguessing won't fail. It'll work great!

Cheating is intentionally breaking a rule. I've never seen any rule you break when you overguess.

If you target a unit then guess a range that you know will fail to hit them in order to hit a target out of LOS, then you may not be breaking any specific rule, but you certainly are going against the spirit of the rules.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

First time for everything I suppose, but I agree RAW fails here.

Although one could argue, using RAW, that the shot should then automatically miss as per the shooting rules, as I see nothing within the cannons rules that specifically breach shooting line of sight rules, which state that a shot fired at a target which is out of the line of sight will automatically miss (p.26), and you as well as your opponent both are aware that you are not aiming at the stated target (ie. you are soing something which will automatically fail by your own intent).


Cannons, and thier incredible accuracy, are one of the many reasons I think 40K is a better game.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here are some of the more common cheats I have witnessed:

Roll more dice then supposed to for hitting and wounding enemy
Roll less dice when taking armor saves
Pickup dice very quickly including some that missedMove units extra distance during movement phase to help reach assault
Loaded dice
Claim additional wargear not actually on army list

- G

I've seen both of the bolded and one of my freinds had the dubious pleasure fo playing a person who did the italisized. Never have I seen loaded dice (although I was once accussed of loading my leadership dice to roll 11's and 12's, and my shooting to roll 1's and 2's). Nobody fails rolls like I do.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Here are some of the more common cheats I have witnessed:

Roll more dice then supposed to for hitting and wounding enemy
Roll less dice when taking armor saves
Pickup dice very quickly including some that missed
Move units extra distance during movement phase to help reach assault
Loaded dice
Claim additional wargear not actually on army list

- G

I've had most of these pulled on me.

One time during a tournament, my opponent had a drop podded dreadnougt to the left of two squads of grey hunters. and my death company jump packed over, assaulted the 1st squad, then massacred into the second squad. I moved them to the right, to make sure the unit would be out of assault range of the dread.

During his movement phase, I was asked a question and turned away from the table. When I turned back, his dread was about 4 inches from the unit. Now, I don't know the actual distance, but the dread was at one end of a footwide template before, and was at the other end of the template after he he.

I still beat him and took Best Sportsman at the tourney.

Nobody fails rolls like I do

I used to be that way, you just have to find the right army and the right dice color and your die karma will properly align.

I always use dice with the same color as my armies primary paint scheme, and mix the blood of a sacrificial virgin in with my highlight colors. Works like a charm

What I like to do during friendly games is laying my codex near the unit that has to move or charge. making it look like I need to get a tape measure or something for the game.
Taking in the effect that the length of the book is 11" I normally can assume that I can charge that turn.
I DO refrain from this during a RTT or any tourney.
This works well with my ravenors

Jinx wrote:What I like to do during friendly games is laying my codex near the unit that has to move or charge. making it look like I need to get a tape measure or something for the game.
Taking in the effect that the length of the book is 11" I normally can assume that I can charge that turn.
I DO refrain from this during a RTT or any tourney.
This works well with my ravenors

There a simple word for what you are doing in that case. It's measuring. If you know a dimension of some thing not part of the table (ie. the length and width of the table), and use it as a guide. That is measuring in a situation where it is not allowed, and thus gets the designation of cheating. If you ereally feel the need to measure might I suggest LoTR or some other game were measuring is a part of the game.

Ozymandias wrote:
If you target a unit then guess a range that you know will fail to hit them in order to hit a target out of LOS, then you may not be breaking any specific rule, but you certainly are going against the spirit of the rules.

Repeat after me: there is no such thing as the spirit of the rules.

mauleed wrote:Repeat after me: there is no such thing as the spirit of the rules.

Bullpuckey. The "Spirit of the Rules" haunted my dice for years after 2nd Edition died.

The spirit of the rules do exist.

Crush your enemy, but make him want to have a beer with you when it's done.

Cheating means less of the latter is likely to occur.

Sure they exist--in each gamer's head. Your "spirit of the rules" is not mine, and mine is not yours. That's why we go by the letter instead, or at least attempt to (GW sure doesn't make it easy sometimes).

With a title like this thread has, I expect to see people chanting "Jerry, Jerry", at any time.

mauleed wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:

malfred wrote:Overguessing cannons is cheating? Can you explain this?

I'm thinking it's overguessing to hit a unit that is out of LOS behind the "target."

Overguessing with a cannon isn't cheating, or even unsporting, per Gav and an article he wrote for WD.

I'm sure I read exactly the opposite somewhere. I'm afraid that I don't take what Gav says as seriously as perhaps I should. :S

A cannon crew aiming at something they can't see and expending ammunition on it is absurd.

Just because the "spirit of the rules" isn't outlined in writing, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The fact that it is unwritten is what distinguishes it from the "letter of the rules."

Pariah Press wrote:

mauleed wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:

malfred wrote:Overguessing cannons is cheating? Can you explain this?

I'm thinking it's overguessing to hit a unit that is out of LOS behind the "target."

Overguessing with a cannon isn't cheating, or even unsporting, per Gav and an article he wrote for WD.

I'm sure I read exactly the opposite somewhere. I'm afraid that I don't take what Gav says as seriously as perhaps I should. :S

A cannon crew aiming at something they can't see and expending ammunition on it is absurd.

Just because the "spirit of the rules" isn't outlined in writing, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The fact that it is unwritten is what distinguishes it from the "letter of the rules."

A beginner who overguesses is making an honest error in judgement. A longterm player who overguesses to hit a target behind has changed his target. He is not aiming at the target he has stated he is aiming at... in fact creating a situation wherin he abuses the spirit and letter of the rules. HE is not aiming at the initial target but rather the illegal target. This is a form of cheating for the following reasons:

1. The stated target is not the intended target.
2. The player has full knowledge of the illegality of the shot (ie. the number guessed is not correct for the stated target and thus not his best guess).
3. The new target is not a valid target (being out of line of sight).

By using a guess which is intended to target an illegal target, with full knowledge that you are intending to hit a target other than the stated target, you have broken the letter of the rules. You know the game well enough to win without abusing the rules. Why break the spirit and letter of the rules?

efarrer wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:

mauleed wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:

malfred wrote:Overguessing cannons is cheating? Can you explain this?

I'm thinking it's overguessing to hit a unit that is out of LOS behind the "target."

Overguessing with a cannon isn't cheating, or even unsporting, per Gav and an article he wrote for WD.

I'm sure I read exactly the opposite somewhere. I'm afraid that I don't take what Gav says as seriously as perhaps I should. :S

A cannon crew aiming at something they can't see and expending ammunition on it is absurd.

Just because the "spirit of the rules" isn't outlined in writing, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The fact that it is unwritten is what distinguishes it from the "letter of the rules."

A beginner who overguesses is making an honest error in judgement. A longterm player who overguesses to hit a target behind has changed his target. He is not aiming at the target he has stated he is aiming at... in fact creating a situation wherin he abuses the spirit and letter of the rules. HE is not aiming at the initial target but rather the illegal target. This is a form of cheating for the following reasons:

Just want to see how far the quote chain can go. Umm... cannons. Anyone who overguesses should get the "dread in a sock" template upside the head.

The Power Cosmic wrote:

efarrer wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:

mauleed wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:

malfred wrote:Overguessing cannons is cheating? Can you explain this?

I'm thinking it's overguessing to hit a unit that is out of LOS behind the "target."

Overguessing with a cannon isn't cheating, or even unsporting, per Gav and an article he wrote for WD.

I'm sure I read exactly the opposite somewhere. I'm afraid that I don't take what Gav says as seriously as perhaps I should. :S

A cannon crew aiming at something they can't see and expending ammunition on it is absurd.

Just because the "spirit of the rules" isn't outlined in writing, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The fact that it is unwritten is what distinguishes it from the "letter of the rules."

A beginner who overguesses is making an honest error in judgement. A longterm player who overguesses to hit a target behind has changed his target. He is not aiming at the target he has stated he is aiming at... in fact creating a situation wherin he abuses the spirit and letter of the rules. HE is not aiming at the initial target but rather the illegal target. This is a form of cheating for the following reasons:

Just want to see how far the quote chain can go. Umm... cannons. Anyone who overguesses should get the "dread in a sock" template upside the head.

I dunno. Couldn't a cannon crew arc their cannon a certain
degree? There are wizards and stuff on the battlefield and all,
maybe they could know there's a dude all the way over yonder.

I don't have to worry about cannons, though...

The Power Cosmic wrote:

efarrer wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:

mauleed wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:

malfred wrote:Overguessing cannons is cheating? Can you explain this?

I'm thinking it's overguessing to hit a unit that is out of LOS behind the "target."

Overguessing with a cannon isn't cheating, or even unsporting, per Gav and an article he wrote for WD.

I'm sure I read exactly the opposite somewhere. I'm afraid that I don't take what Gav says as seriously as perhaps I should. :S

A cannon crew aiming at something they can't see and expending ammunition on it is absurd.

Just because the "spirit of the rules" isn't outlined in writing, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The fact that it is unwritten is what distinguishes it from the "letter of the rules."

A beginner who overguesses is making an honest error in judgement. A longterm player who overguesses to hit a target behind has changed his target. He is not aiming at the target he has stated he is aiming at... in fact creating a situation wherin he abuses the spirit and letter of the rules. HE is not aiming at the initial target but rather the illegal target. This is a form of cheating for the following reasons:

Just want to see how far the quote chain can go. Umm... cannons. Anyone who overguesses should get the "dread in a sock" template upside the head.

Quote chain FTW.

I have no problem with over-guessing from my opponent. If they want to try to hit something else, fine. Would I do it? Probably not, but mostly only because I don't play anything with Guess Range. Me and my bunch of pointy eared poofter armies....

Platuan4th wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:

efarrer wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:

mauleed wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:

malfred wrote:Overguessing cannons is cheating? Can you explain this?

I'm thinking it's overguessing to hit a unit that is out of LOS behind the "target."

Overguessing with a cannon isn't cheating, or even unsporting, per Gav and an article he wrote for WD.

I'm sure I read exactly the opposite somewhere. I'm afraid that I don't take what Gav says as seriously as perhaps I should. :S

A cannon crew aiming at something they can't see and expending ammunition on it is absurd.

Just because the "spirit of the rules" isn't outlined in writing, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The fact that it is unwritten is what distinguishes it from the "letter of the rules."

A beginner who overguesses is making an honest error in judgement. A longterm player who overguesses to hit a target behind has changed his target. He is not aiming at the target he has stated he is aiming at... in fact creating a situation wherin he abuses the spirit and letter of the rules. HE is not aiming at the initial target but rather the illegal target. This is a form of cheating for the following reasons:

Just want to see how far the quote chain can go. Umm... cannons. Anyone who overguesses should get the "dread in a sock" template upside the head.

Quote chain FTW.

I have no problem with over-guessing from my opponent. If they want to try to hit something else, fine. Would I do it? Probably not, but mostly only because I don't play anything with Guess Range. Me and my bunch of pointy eared poofter armies....

Maybe this will become more of an issue when GW releases the
Fantasy version of Apocalypse, um, and call it Ragnarok. Yeah,
that's it.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, I hope you know Pythagorean Theorem has nothing to do with angles. Pythagorean Theorem only deals with triangle side and hypotenuse lengths. If you were going to use angles you would need the law of sine’s and cosines, even then you need at least one known side length. If anyone has those tables (sine/cosine) memorized in their head and don't need a calculator, then they deserve to win hands down.

smart_alex wrote:At the risk of sounding pedantic, I hope you know Pythagorean Theorem has nothing to do with angles. Pythagorean Theorem only deals with triangle side and hypotenuse lengths. If you were going to use angles you would need the law of sine’s and cosines, even then you need at least one known side length. If anyone has those tables (sine/cosine) memorized in their head and don't need a calculator, then they deserve to win hands down.

It has to do with a single 90 degree angle.

malfred wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:

efarrer wrote:

Pariah Press wrote:

mauleed wrote:

The Power Cosmic wrote:

malfred wrote:Overguessing cannons is cheating? Can you explain this?

I'm thinking it's overguessing to hit a unit that is out of LOS behind the "target."

Overguessing with a cannon isn't cheating, or even unsporting, per Gav and an article he wrote for WD.

I'm sure I read exactly the opposite somewhere. I'm afraid that I don't take what Gav says as seriously as perhaps I should. :S

A cannon crew aiming at something they can't see and expending ammunition on it is absurd.

Just because the "spirit of the rules" isn't outlined in writing, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The fact that it is unwritten is what distinguishes it from the "letter of the rules."

A beginner who overguesses is making an honest error in judgement. A longterm player who overguesses to hit a target behind has changed his target. He is not aiming at the target he has stated he is aiming at... in fact creating a situation wherin he abuses the spirit and letter of the rules. HE is not aiming at the initial target but rather the illegal target. This is a form of cheating for the following reasons:

Just want to see how far the quote chain can go. Umm... cannons. Anyone who overguesses should get the "dread in a sock" template upside the head.

Quote chain FTW.

I have no problem with over-guessing from my opponent. If they want to try to hit something else, fine. Would I do it? Probably not, but mostly only because I don't play anything with Guess Range. Me and my bunch of pointy eared poofter armies....

Maybe this will become more of an issue when GW releases the
Fantasy version of Apocalypse, um, and call it Ragnarok. Yeah,
that's it.

One can only hope they do a Warhammer Fantasy: Ragnarok. Maybe we'll eventually see some interesting kits, like a Kemhrian Sphinx from Warmaster, an actual Franz on Dragon, new versions of Nagash and the Vermin Lord, plastic Stank, and a new Doomwheel. I know I'd actually get around to finishing my Skaven if a new Vermin Lord was done up, not that I don't love the old model.

mauleed wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:
If you target a unit then guess a range that you know will fail to hit them in order to hit a target out of LOS, then you may not be breaking any specific rule, but you certainly are going against the spirit of the rules.

Repeat after me: there is no such thing as the spirit of the rules.

Another reason why we will never play a game together.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

efarrer wrote:A beginner who overguesses is making an honest error in judgement. A longterm player who overguesses to hit a target behind has changed his target. He is not aiming at the target he has stated he is aiming at... in fact creating a situation wherin he abuses the spirit and letter of the rules. HE is not aiming at the initial target but rather the illegal target. This is a form of cheating for the following reasons:

1. The stated target is not the intended target.
2. The player has full knowledge of the illegality of the shot (ie. the number guessed is not correct for the stated target and thus not his best guess).
3. The new target is not a valid target (being out of line of sight).

By using a guess which is intended to target an illegal target, with full knowledge that you are intending to hit a target other than the stated target, you have broken the letter of the rules. You know the game well enough to win without abusing the rules. Why break the spirit and letter of the rules?

When you're rules argument involves mind reading, it's generally not a very good rules argument.

I ran a IG army in a RTT in WA my first battle was with a Tau player i was shooting at his broadsides with shield drones the guy never said who was making the save and when rolled a 2 he said the Broadside was making the save now at this time i knew nothing about tau .

In any right triangle the hypotenuse is equal to the square root of the sum of the square of the two other sides...

C = SQRT[A*A + B*B]

- G

I still feel like the one I see the most is movement. From 6.75" infantry moves in 40k to wheeling moves that guys measure in a straight line instead of a pseudo-arc, that (both literal and figurative) corner cutting hurts.