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Gotcha. I had heard rumors to the effect. Joel had a nice store; I still measure most gaming store experiences against GM.

I probably do remember you: which one were you?

Before Gamenight (or any other store) opened on Cape Cod, I used to drive down with my buddies a couple of times a summer when back on college break (this was probably '95-'98). After that, whenever I drove into town (or flew in through Providence), I'd make a stop in N. Dartmouth.

Hmm... August huh? Well thats 10 months of hype only to be handed a bit of dissapointment. Doesn't matter if the date is right or wrong, eventually the outcome will be the same. I've lost all respect for GW rules writing. It would take something huge to get it back.... 5th might be it, but the safe money is that it wont.

Names Jared Im kinda short with glasses and I talk ALOT!
My main armies are Crimson Fists for 40K and Dwarves for Fantasy.

Cool, you named the store. Now explain how they have solicitation sheets that don't exist. GW puts out a 90 day list, last I checked, August wasn't in the next 90 days. Nice try. You're either making it up, or someone is feeding you a line of BS.
Whether or not there is, or ever will be a 5th edition of 40k, you didn't see a legit product list stretching out to August.

Um I didnt post to confirm or deny ANYTHING. I made a post to answer a guys question about my former and current shop I work at.
In response to your post I will say after working in a game store for 4 1/2 years you do get information that is not privy to the public from OTHER sources than just the 3 month "Heads Up" they Email you. Im not confirming this "5th edition" rumor and if ANYONE knows me they know I love WitchHunters, but only in tabletop games and not on forums...haha

adamsouza wrote:The level of Paranoia in this thread is ridiculous.
If I were a GW plant, which I'm not, would it make the information any less valuable ?
If GW wanted to go big with the information, do you seriously think they would put it here before putting on their own website ?'

I was just being snarky. Not really serious. Did not mean to offend.

mikhaila wrote:Cool, you named the store. Now explain how they have solicitation sheets that don't exist. GW puts out a 90 day list, last I checked, August wasn't in the next 90 days. Nice try. You're either making it up, or someone is feeding you a line of BS.
Whether or not there is, or ever will be a 5th edition of 40k, you didn't see a legit product list stretching out to August.

Chill Out!!

I used the term solicitation sheet becuase it is the term I am familiar from the comic book industry.

You seem way to aggitated over a small detail and missing the greater point.

There have been multiple rumblings about 5th edition next year, and I posted a rumor about the release date.

I believe what he told me, but your free to make up your own mind. Just please stop trying to insinuate that I have some sort of aggenda.

Warseer's got a lot of discussion about this, dakka's previous thread was closed because people kept talking about what they wanted to see in v5 instead of rumors. A poster named de Selby is checking on the warseer thread so I'm going to copy his post just like in the last thread:

Since there isn't currently an open thread about it, I thought I'd start a compilation thread for discussion of the rumours of a 5th ed. 40K coming next year (with new starter box). I don't have any info or confirmation myself, I just wanted a thread people can go to to talk about (or possibly debunk) these rumours.

There have been a few rumblings about a rules revision in past months. There's also the fact that the studio don't appear to design codices for the 4th edition rules (at least where things like retinues are concerned). However, it's still possible that all this rumourage will never amount to anything. If you know more, spill the beans!

Story so far:

Shebnar said:
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OK, I'm going to post these other rumours appeared on GW Tilea: the source is trustworthy.


- First of all, WH40K V Edition will see the light before summer 2008 (yes you read it right), just after the Codexaemons.
There's not much in the new edition that is going to be radically changed, the things which will be modified for sure are:

1) rules about vehicles
2) damage chart for vehicles (MAYBE we'll have one only chart for glancing and penetrating hits, with modifiers according to the weapon which scored the hit - note that this is an uncertain rumour)
3) rules about psychic powers
4) small variations on HtH combat

the source denied any further explaination.

It has been speculated that the new Starter Box will include SM and Orks (both in plastic).


Dosad said:
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Things I've heard about 5th edition:

It will be released in 2008. I’ve been hinting at this in these forums for months now…I was told September/October, but maybe they are pushing it up for some reason. Maybe they are launching the new edition before they release the next supplement. Could have something to with the rules changes that they need the new system out before the next supplement.

The new starter box will be Orks vs. Marines. Like BfSP it will have two small but complete armies. The new technology lets them put so much more stuff on a sprue and I've heard you get TONS of stuff in this box. I expect a vehicle or two (those rumors of a plastic killa kan have been floating around for some time) but I have no info to say what the contents will be beyond Orks vs. Marines (What do you think they are making those plastic grots for?). As an Ork player I am so very excited about this box…

Rules wise I’ve heard that the vehicle damage chart will look like the Apocalypse one but for standard vehicles.

I’ve heard nothing of a nerf for skimmers or any other major changes to the vehicle system. But that just means my source hasn’t told me anything or may not know himself.

Two big changes I’ve heard about are changes to movement and (everyone wait for it…) changes to Rending! I posted these in a “rules idea” thread a few weeks back to see if anyone would notice…nobody did. I'm not going to go into detail now as I've been tourtured by the =I=nqusition before and do not wish to revist those dark places. But if you search for them, they are out there...posted as my own idea. (see how I do that? Like a f'n ninja!)

I’ve heard that Combat Patrol and Kill Team are gone from the rule book. They will make a reappearance as their own supplement in 2009 with expanded rules for "space hulk" and "Necromunda" style games.
They have been replaced with a much expanded mission system and campaign rules that are based off the Mighty Empires system for FB. I've heard that there are a few 40K specific tiles in the works. One being a hive-city tile.

Dark Eldar are next after Deamons, beyond that I have no clue.

That’s all I’ve got…well almost.

Dosadi

Sakura said:
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Just a couple of things to add:

~Marching rule:
if your unit is like 12" away from an enemy or something you can run them like a fleet roll to get them in cover.

~Skimmers dont get glances if they move 12" but the vehicle damage rules change so I don't know how this means anything right now.

************************************************** ********

I said: all this stuff sounds like a bigger deal than 3rd/4th. Particularly changes to movement. Is it possible for troops to get generally faster without breaking the game balance of the 4th ed codices (1st turn charges and whatnot). Maybe changes to reserves and deployment (as in Apocalypse) will counteract this? Or maybe some of these changes won't turn out (like the S7 ignores armour saves rule that never was, for apoc)?


NEW!
Summary up to page 5:
Smokedog said (paraphrase)
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Ivé heard that splitting fire on vehicles will be an option again... looks like they have been reading the 2nd ed rule book a lot recently....

BS 6,7 may now have some meaning gamewise

Mars said (essentially summary)
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info that hasn't been mentioned yet (from what I've read):

- rending ignores armour/glances automaticly on a 6 to-wound/penetrate, instead of to-hit

- the forced march is basicly Fleet of Foot, but you can't use it within 12" of an enemy, and you can't move in the assault phase. units who actually have Fleet of Foot suffer none of these limits

But Brimstone said
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Originally Posted by WarpWhisperer
Has anyone noticed that the suggested forced march rule appears to give the green light to pre-measuring? i.e. just 'checking' to see if I can march - oh dear, I can't, but now I know I can assault....

That's assuming the rumour as stated is correct which it isn't.

I think that running would be more like fleet but with added restrictions to still give 'fleet' models an advantage.

I don't see any changes for fleet to be honest more like restrictions on the run ability.


Atrum Angelus said
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Before summer 2008? There will be no 5th Edition before July 2008. I promise you.


NEW: summary up to page 10
Brimstone on the box set:
************************************************** ********
Well I don't know that much about it except it should feature Marines vs Orks and will contain larger models than just pure infantry on both sides.

Also, Thylacine sent me this by PM:
************************************************** *********
No new rulebook next year, Shebnar made a wrong translation from Italian, mistook the interviewers question for the interviewees answer!



NEW: nothing new to p14 (lots of discussion about forced marching though)
Redshirts say 5th ed. isn't happening next year.

August has been a semi-confirmed date from several trusted sources on Warseer now. They keep saying something big is coming for summer... so I wonder what that could be.

Space Marine Redux, drop pods, and the dropzone codex?
A stompa?

hmmmm....

I think 5th edition would be pretty big all by itself.

Problem is with new editions that they cannot revisit all the broken/problematic rules because that would make all or at least many older, so pre 5th edition, codices unplayable. Only a quick stand alone book a la ravening hordes could solve that problem...but I simply don't see that happening. (Ravening Hordes was a small book that came with the new 6th edition of fantasy. Essentially army list for all the races to make them playable with 6th edition)

The changes seems pretty nice, though. Giving range weaponless or short range weapon units a boost (melee carnifexes, melee tyranid warriors, striking scorpions, nightmares, short range marines, slugga boys (!) ect.) is a long overdue change imo.

The rending ability change is also good and necessary.

Streamlined damage chart also...

Think about it, how would these changes limit some of the no-brainer choices or buffing some rarely used units?

Greets
Schepp himself

Toreador wrote:August has been a semi-confirmed date from several trusted sources on Warseer now. They keep saying something big is coming for summer... so I wonder what that could be.

hmmmm....

In the UK/USA, August is IN the summer.

Lol, GW's summer release is usually June/July. August is GDUK I think.

[quote=adamsouza
Chill Out!!

I used the term solicitation sheet becuase it is the term I am familiar from the comic book industry.

You seem way to aggitated over a small detail and missing the greater point.

There have been multiple rumblings about 5th edition next year, and I posted a rumor about the release date.

I believe what he told me, but your free to make up your own mind. Just please stop trying to insinuate that I have some sort of aggenda.

I think one thing everyone needs to remember is that GW isn't releasing this new edition to "fix the rules", so get any such giant expectations (if you had them) out of your mind.

The reason for this new version of the game is simple: The current rulebook is a failure by the new design standards and Jervis said exactly as much at the last Adepticon. They don't want stuff like 'kill-team' rules in the core rulebook, that sort of stuff should be placed into an appropriate skirmish level expansion (the opposite twin of Apocalypse).

Instead they want a rulebook that focuses simply on the core rules for fighting 1,500 point pick-up games and as a better introduction to the hobby.


So that is the real reason behind such a quick new edition, not because of rules issues, and just like a SM redux codex would be done for the same reason (because it is a failure from a design aspect of helping to get new players into the army) not because of any perceived rules issues.

Now, this isn't to say that GW isn't aware that there are rules issues and they obviously will take the opportunity to fix what they can along with such a release (as the rumors clearly show) but this will definitely be more of a fine-tuned tweaking rather than any big change. The real big change will just be the new rulebook and the new starter box set.

I have all the info that is sent out to Independent retailers, or Distributors. It just doesn't go out that far, barely stretches into February right now.

Im not sure if you saw my response post or not. I stated earlier that I have been working at a gaming store for 4 1/2 years and sometimes GW does give a good store special info about stuff that is not on the 3 Month "Heads Up" Email they send you. So you may have every Retailer Email, Product List, etc, but sometimes your Rep calls you up on the phone while your doing restock or something and they chat with you about upcoming stuff and things in the works.

I agree with Yakface and furthermore I agree with Jervis.

There are some fundimental flaws that have existing with this game since 3rd edition that need to be addressed.

Like:

1: The ineffectiveness of ground based assault infantry.

2: The over effectivenesss of Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers.

3: The codexes becomeing a few good lists rather than an ability to use every unit.


I don't expect things to be perfect but at least they are making an effort.

Honestly, I only see points 2 and 3 as a problem (and they definitely are).

Just a personal thing on 1 though. I just don't think that melee troops should be all that effective without a good delivery system, in the context of a futuristic universe. Without either armor that stops incoming fire with great effect, some vehicle or device to get to the enemy in a hurry to lessen the fire, enough bodies that severe losses don't matter, or enough cover to allow close up action before much fire happens, the man with the rifle should be king over the man who brought a chain sword to the gun fight.
I think melee units are fun, but their being useful without one of the four factors mentioned above breaks the versimlitude of the fluff. I think the answer to fixing melee units is to offer options for them as above, though many already have that built in, in one way or another.

Mahu wrote:I agree with Yakface and furthermore I agree with Jervis.
1: The ineffectiveness of ground based assault infantry.
2: The over effectivenesss of Monstrous Creatures and Skimmers.
3: The codexes becomeing a few good lists rather than an ability to use every unit.
I don't expect things to be perfect but at least they are making an effort.

I agree with the issues to some extent, but I'm not sure they need fixing per se.
1. Footslogging assault will (and should, IMO) always be poor, which is why they need huge masses (e.g. Orks / Nids) or Transports (e.g. Eldar, SM). 40k being the only game with vehicles en masse, it is *good* to encourage more Transports, so no "fix" is really needed here. If people want to walk, they can take the casualties on the way in.

2a. MCs are only a problem because Nids can take them as Elites with decent BS. Limit MCs to 2 HQ and 3 Heavy, and it's not a problem.

2b. Skimmers are only a problem in the sense that non-Skimmers are a little to easy to Destroy, so cut the Penetrating Destruction from 4+ to 5+, and the balance will be fine.

3. Codices will *always* have an "optimal" build, defined by the current local metagame. The only question is how flexible and effective the non-optimal builds are. And by and large, the balance is much better starting with Codex: Eldar and moving forward. Expecting "perfect" balance in such a complex system with so many different metagames is a fool's errand. But getting "close enough" is good enough, and that's where we're at. Also, be thankful that rules oddities like Lash are the exception rather than the rule (i.e 2nd Ed.). In particular, moving away from VPs to Objectives is going to do a lot to address the perceived "problem".

To chime in a bit, I think 1 needs to be changed around a bit. It isn't just effectiveness of ground based assault infantry. It should be.

1.The lack of any real tactical movement of and ground based infantry.

Even guys with guns have problems moving around the battlefield effectively, and sometimes take little part in a fight. There is little tactical movement without vehicles.

All infantry should be allowed to move and fire their basic weapons. Only heavy weapons should be restricted from moving. The whole basis of modern infantry tactics is "fire and movement".

Kilkrazy wrote:All infantry should be allowed to move and fire their basic weapons. Only heavy weapons should be restricted from moving. The whole basis of modern infantry tactics is "fire and movement".

My Tau now have the effective range of a heavy bolter.

Kilkrazy wrote:All infantry should be allowed to move and fire their basic weapons. Only heavy weapons should be restricted from moving. The whole basis of modern infantry tactics is "fire and movement".

The already can, they just can't snipe at a distant target a mile away while on the move (keep in mind the compressed ranges). The current system seems reasonable in that regard to me.

Hopefully the 5th ed. marching rules will add a little bit more speed back into the mix.

So if you march you basically can move as fast as if you had a transport? is that gonna make rhinos and others useless then?

All HQ units of 40k armies will include a shrubbery!

Necros wrote:So if you march you basically can move as fast as if you had a transport? is that gonna make rhinos and others useless then?

Nope, the disembarking when it takes a hit and not being able to assault made it useless. The Rhino is 35 points for a mobile wall and stormbolter. Its transport ability is more for fluff and coolness than game effect.

True Asmodai. Will a 5th Edition(If and when released) Focus mainly on the whole RAW issues that are argued over time and again? O revise the system from the bottom up?
Don't kill me guys, but apart from some various inconsistencies, 4th ED has never been that big a hassle.?!?(wondering)

As long as they neuter skimmers so everyone who bought eldar armies with 3 falcons is screwed, all will be right with the world.

Time to buy vibrocannons guys!

akira5665 wrote:True Asmodai. Will a 5th Edition(If and when released) Focus mainly on the whole RAW issues that are argued over time and again? O revise the system from the bottom up?
Don't kill me guys, but apart from some various inconsistencies, 4th ED has never been that big a hassle.?!?(wondering)

I hope they focus on the whole "clear and well written rules" thing. That would solve most problems.

ender502

JohnHwangDD wrote:1. Footslogging assault will (and should, IMO) always be poor, which is why they need huge masses (e.g. Orks / Nids) or Transports (e.g. Eldar, SM). 40k being the only game with vehicles en masse, it is *good* to encourage more Transports, so no "fix" is really needed here. If people want to walk, they can take the casualties on the way in.

I certainly don't mind the horde approach, but I see no reason whatsoever why footslogging assault should be limited to that. 40k is, well, like a long time in the future. Why shouldn't there be armies that can put down good footslogging assault troops that can withstand fire. Whilst the similarities to 20th century stuff (certainly for imperials) is good fluff, that doesn't mean all alien lists shoud be sticking to the same basic paradigm of horde or transport to deliver close combat troops.

There are already troops that almost fill such a role, but they fail for one reason or another. Some rule tweaks could make them more viable as a footslogging assault force.

I could see the following reasons for a valid non-horde footlslogging assault force.

Stealth (ala harlies, tau stealth suits)- spotting range makes them viable against some opponents, but still vulnerable to fast shooty units that 'somehow' know exactly where they are and can nip in and shoot at short range.

Mega armor (ala termies) - but the armor system can't handle less than a 16% chance of bypassing armor, not to mention facing a lascannon per termie makes them easy to take out.

"I just won't die" (ala nid warriors, nurgle marines, necrons) - They get some rule to make em tougher to kill, but then get something to stop them being good for walking assault. Warriors get immune to ID but still 'only' T4 and low save, necrons arent really assaulty.


The easiest to change is the last category, it doesn't need a rule change even, and is more a codex thing. e.g. Give Warriors FNP on what they have and they'd become a pretty tasty foot slogging assault unit, T4, immune to ID, 4+ fnp save.

A change in armor rules could make assault termies more viable, sv2 is nice but is still penetrated 16% of the time by flashlights. and the prevalnce of ap 2 weapons doesn't help (though that seems to be slowly getting addressed via codices). There are proabably all sorts of way of redoing saves, the only limit being how complex you want to get, and how important it is to keep to d6s.

Stealth type stuff is more awkward, ideally the units wouldn't be on the board until they were 'spotted', otherwise you are always going to be left with the speeder that just 'happened' to end up next to the stealth unit and ensure it passed the check. I suppose you could move from spotting range to a shooting penalty - so you always know that they are there, but stealth makes it hard to shoot effectively at any range rather than make you invisible. longer range could be a more severe penalty but even point blank could be a -1 to BS. say -1 to 12", -2 to 24" -3 to 36" etc.

At any rate I think are several good reasons for there being non-horde foot slogging assault units in the far future.

I am more swayed by Mikhaila's statement than the other view expressed here.

Most of the old Dakkites know that Mikhaila actually owns several, more than 2, stores at his geographical location. As a indepent owner he has more insight into the inner workings of what information GW has disseminated to store owners in general.

I'm sure a 5th edition set of rules will be out but to give a definite date is quite premature at this point.