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I really only play against my local group and they still forget.

If someone asks I'll tell them, but I don't have to go out of my way to let them know.

Mughi, if you only have one squad DWA works fine.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

death wing assault imho works better as support for battlecompany than as a deathwing tactic. 3 combat squaded devastator units can be very effective at making your opponent keep their head down, which is how you want them deployed if you're going to push up a flank with some first turn termie+bike action.

really though i like vets in pods better than termies.

I added Scouts to the Elite section post and would love to hear anything on them I may have missed. As that unit gave me a slight headache trying to write uses for it.

Also I need some advice and options on the Techmarine. He is really giving me a hard time with finding a use.

Also, I want to add that I will never say an upgrade is a mandatory choice because the Tactica needs to be far reaching enough to take into account the composition of the players list and the points limit.

For example, I know that Venerable is really good on a Dreadnought, but I won't say its mandatory because personally I don't think it is, but more importantly sometimes you just don't have the points. Also, some players have different experiences with the Venerable upgrade. I for one, find my Dreadnoughts still dying to most Penetrating hits, even with the re-roll. But that could be due to local meta-game and luck more then anything.

Bottom line, I am approaching it as "this is the better choices" not "these are the only choices".

Sniper Scouts aren't a favorite unit, but are probably worth a mention. They have 36" range and Infiltrate, which can make them an effective diversion. A missile launcher is the classic heavy weapon for this unit.


Techmarines are a tricky unit. They don't take up a FoC slot, which is handy.

You can field them as a fire-support unit with a Techmarine and 4x Heavy Bolter Servitors. It's a moderate price for the unit and they can pour out Devastator level firepower without taking up a Heavy Support Slot. The downside to this is that they don't have ablative wounds and are vulnerable to return fire.

The repair role is limited, but still there. I'm not sure it's worth it just for that.

With a 2+ save and Powerfist and Power Weapon attacks the Techmarine can be quite nasty in close combat. He's probably not worth the points for that role alone though.

The Techmarine only seems worthwhile in a list where he can fulfill multiple roles.

For example, he could stand on the firing line between a couple Predators with 2x Tech and 2x Heavy Bolter Servitors (my favored combination). He can repair the tanks if needed with a 75% chance of success (4+ with reroll). The Tech Servitors also provide ablative wounds. The two Heavy Bolters provide decent firepower, especially against Orks. Once the enemy makes it to the Dark Angels' lines, he can act as a counter-charge unit to protect Tactical and Devastator Squads.

None of those are worthwhile by themselves. The flexibility and ability to fulfill multiple roles during the game do allow him to play a productive role in the game. I'd still only rate him Semi-Competitive at best.

Also I need some advice and options on the Techmarine. He is really giving me a hard time with finding a use.

My favorite tactic-park him behind a venerable las/missle dread in terrain with some servitors. he gives you piece of mind because you can fix anything other than destroyed results on the dread.

On the cheap i just give him a BP/PW and 2 repair servitors(oh and those power fists ) if i have spare points i would upgrade him more.

With respect to Command Squads, I generally agree with the comments posted so far. I think the following additional points are worth mentioning.

As an assault unit, the command squad does not have enough bodies (only 5 Marines) to be effective. Unfortunately, the majority of the upgrades for the command squad are assault oriented power weapons or short-range, non-heavy weapons. In addition, the base 2 attacks seem wasted given the lack of bodies to execute an assault.

As a shooty unit, the command squad does not have access to multiple long-range, heavy weapons. As noted above, the majority of the upgrades for the command squad are assault oriented power weapons or short-range, non-heavy weapons.

As a retinue . . . well, the command squad isn't a retinue. As noted already, any vehicle provided to the command squad means that it won't be deployed with the IC in an escalation game; the only practical way for the unit to act as a de facto "retinue" is to deploy the IC and command squad together without a vehicle (or drop pod).

What possible role remains? The command squad can act as a "counter assault unit, with special features," where the special features are the apothecary, standard bearer, and company champion options, as well as the base 2 attacks! In my mind, placing a bare bones command squad with the apothecary upgrade behind a group of devastors with plasma cannons (or in front of such a unit to force target priority tests) seems useful, as the apothecary ability may come into play on both the player's turn due to the Gets Hot rule and on the opponent's turn due to incoming fire. A command squad in this role could also be upgraded with a power weapon or two (being careful not to overspend on a small counter assault unit) to discourage assault, and possibly with a heavy weapon of its own to add extra firepower (I don't have my codex with me, so I'm not certain which heavy weapons choices are available, if any). As always, think long and hard before upgrading a 5 man squad with a Power Fist, as the Marine may not live to initiative 1 to swing it.

I'm really looking forwards to the ravenwing section Mahu!

Hey guys, I've just recently joined the board and was looking for just this sort of post. I've been playing the Unforgiven since the release of Codex: Angels of Death and so far I have to say the current codex is the better of the two "modern" iterations IMHO. Having said that here are a couple of quick thoughts for your consideration that I don't think have been covered yet:

Scouts: something I've been considering/toying with is a ten man scout unit with five shotguns, a power fist and the remaining with CCW/BP. They're cheap, if infiltrate is in use they can start in good position, they move through cover and they can pump out 15 str 4 shots before assaulting with 4 fist attacks and 22 regular attacks.

Techmarine: I like using two tanks as much as possible (usually a Pred with TL LC/HB sponsons and a Vindicator) so if possible I take the basic TM with 4 Tech Servitors. In addition to being really handy at fixing the tanks he also makes a pretty decent counter assault unit with the potential for up to 5 fist attacks (that's after his PW attacks and the servitors basic CC attacks).

That's it for now, more to follow later.

I'm excited to hear more about the troops tactics. The defining change to the DA codex is the ten man tac squad w/ two combat squads. As a player who has experimented with this setup I have had tremendous problems getting the two units to concentrate fire and provide some counterpunch in assault. I'm interested to see what some others on this board have come up with.

I have an army I've configured to use as either Blood Angels or Chaos Renegades. The Combat Squads are really useful, but only because And They Shall Know No Fear prevents the small squads from evaporating when they take casualties. Having a Commander to give Combat Squads without Veteran Sergeants leading them a Leadership bonus is really handy; I've tried Chaplains and Librarians, and they're okay for a secondary HQ but to really maximize the benefit of Combat Squads they need the Captain's Leadership. That way they rarely fail, unless truly pressed (in which case running away can be a good thing), and they don't keep running when they do.

In particular I've found that a mix of Combat Squads and full squads is ideal. Although having all Combat Squads gives you more control over directing Shooting and Assaults, co-ordinating two squads instead of one can be tricky. Having a complete Tactical squad supported by two Combat Squads, with two other Combat Squads hanging back gives you some of that flexibility with the stamina of a big group of Space Marines to threaten people with.

Speaking of hanging back, Combat Squad Devastators are wonderful, particularly when dueling with Lootas and their opposite numbers in other armies. It's like having the Long Fang's splitting fire rule while also being able to force an opponent to split their fire between two units. It also means that one Devastator Combat squad can keep up the pressure while the other half redeploys, so they can leap-frog away from encroaching assault troops.

Something that I've found, and still struggle with, is forgoing that extra turn of shooting so I can assault with a full squad of Marines to the front of an enemy and flank with a combat squad. This increases the kill-zone, and helps to leave enemy alive to sweeping advance. The trick, it seems, is to advance the Combat Squad in a diagonal away from the Tactical Squad which opens fire on incoming troops that might be candidates for an assault, or forward up the flanks if you get lucky during set up and your opponent isn't refusing a flank.

I haven't forgot about this thread, but rumors of the coming fifth edition is placing me on hold. I would rather finish this once the new rule set is complete.

I would like to see this thread continue so when I do start to write again, I can draw upon this knowledge.

Probably a good idea, although it'll be interesting to see how 5th will affect the Unforgiven. IF the PDF can be believed I think we'll see some more interest in mixed full and combat squads as that will increase your scoring units while maintaining FOC slots.

Nurglitch: I had thought about trying the Dev trick with 2 heavy weapons in each combat squad. Have you not found them to be a bit more fragile, or is this countered by the utility of splitting fire and being able to redeploy while still laying down cover. Also, do you mix match weapons in those squads or use all one type?

I think it's rather foolish to stop discussion based on a rulesset we have no timeframe for. Besides, there is still a lot of untapped potential in the current codex for players to find.

I really like splitting my Devs, it means that I can cover all angles with one squad. Hiding a vehicle from one dev squad is fairly simple. Hiding from two is a lot harder. Plus, you can take different Heavy Weapons so there is a reason to take 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Lascannons as they can then split and not lose effectiveness.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:I really like splitting my Devs, it means that I can cover all angles with one squad. Hiding a vehicle from one dev squad is fairly simple. Hiding from two is a lot harder. Plus, you can take different Heavy Weapons so there is a reason to take 2 Heavy Bolters and 2 Lascannons as they can then split and not lose effectiveness.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

It's a good strategy. It also means that if the first two missiles / lascannons kill the tank, you're not wasting the squad.

The only time I don't split my Devs is when fighting SAFH forces where you need every last ablative wound you can get.

Exactly. The 4 ML/LC's have a chance now of taking out 2 vehicles in one turn.

I'm not a huge fan of Combat Tactical Squads in non-objective games but the Combat Dev Squads are a clear winner for me.

That being said, I'm moving to a more Mech force and find myself abandoning my devs for 95 pt. Preds and Dreadnoughts...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

RayJ wrote:I think it's rather foolish to stop discussion based on a rulesset we have no timeframe for. Besides, there is still a lot of untapped potential in the current codex for players to find.

Concur. Although I think Mahu was indicating he's waiting to finish the DA unit roundup rather than stop the tactics discussion.

Ozymandias/Asmodai: OK, so I normally run 2 ML and 2 LC, would you guys recommend switching to all of one or the other or keeping that loadout and splitting the combat squads by weapon type?

Keep the 2 ML 2 LC. The all-LC setup is way too expensive, and all ML doesn't pack enough punch for high armor. At 275 points, you can make the 2ML 2LC dev squad work wonders for you, Especially when you pair it with 2 autocannon/HB predators.

@Danger UXO: It's really up to do. That load out works great when you split it by type.

It depends on what armies you fight whether you need the extra punch of more Lascannons.

Cool, thanks for the advice all. Have to say I like RayJ's recommendation with the tanks. I'm a multiple tank kind of guy.

Concur. Although I think Mahu was indicating he's waiting to finish the DA unit roundup rather than stop the tactics discussion.

Your right, I never said the discussion would stop. The longer it goes, the more information I can draw on to complete the article.

I said at the offset, I wanted this tactica to last a while. A new edition, especially the rumored changes, really throw a wrencth into things. I am look at something I would have spent a month on need to be rewritten in a matter of months.

However, the longer this discussion goes, the better the eventual tactica goes.

On to the current topic, even though you can split the devastators with combat squads. I still prefer to max on a single weapon. Devastators are the best way to put down Infantry level heavy weapons, especially anti-tank ones. So when I invest points into the unit, I believe I am getting the best bang for my anti-tank buck, if I invest in multiple anti-tank weapons, of which Missle Launchers are my favorite. Because they are fielded in numbers on the Devestator Squads, they make up for the less str. then the Lascannon, and at 15 points cheaper. If I need Heavy Bolters, I have cheap Predators for that.

The thing is that the comparative price of Lascannons have gone up for Tac Squads, needing 10 men and 20 pts per lascannon. So it makes sense to now take them in Dev squads. For cost reasons I run 2 ML and 2 LC in my Dev squads, though sometimes I mix it up and run 2 Plasma Cannons and 2 LC.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

The 2 ML/2 LC mix has worked out for me pretty well so far, I'll have to see how it does with combat squads. If I was going to go all one weapon type in my devs I think I'd go all LC and then take two autocannon/HB Predators for anti-infantry. I figure with the anti-tank stuff if your going to go, you might as well go big. In lower point games though, I might consider 4 ML instead.

I wouldn't mix weapons in a Dev squad for one reason -

There's alot of missions out there where heavy support starts off the table.

Are there really? I've only encountered a couple, and those pretty infrequently.

General feedback for Mahu- good effort so far. I definitely encourage you to continue. 5th may require some tweaks, but I expect much will stay the same. I was encouraged by a recent rumor that Defensive weapons are more likely to be S5- (or even still S6-) than to go down to S4.

Specific stuff:

Re: Librarians:
I think you should talk a little more about Hellfire. IMO this is actually quite a decent power. I’ve always liked Wind of Chaos to make a character a squad killer. Compare- WoC always wounds on a 4+ and allows no save. Hellfire allows a save some of the time (depending on the target), but usually is at least S5, sometimes better. Not bad at all. If you could only get a darn Librarian with Ld10 (to make the psychic hood more dependable), I’d rank them right up at competitive.

Re: Terminator armament:

1. Remember that you can also give the Sgt a chainfist for only 5pts. This is my preference.
2. Re: the heavy flamer. While I concur that the assault cannon is the superior choice, I think you’re overstating the “risk a bad scatter” part. In a Death/Raven mix, you should be using your teleport homers, which will largely eliminate the risk of a bad scatter. When combined with a teleport homer in the right position, the heavy flamer can be maximized on the target, and can really be quite good. Deadshane already hit this point too, and I think it should be incorporated into the core of the tactica

Re: Assault Dreadnought
I agree with your general overview; I’d just be a little more explicit about the virtues of the heavy flamer/pod combo. Combining the safety to drop right next to the enemy with no fear of death, with the flexibility of disembarking the dread anywhere within 2” of the pod, allows for some brutal close-up template placements.

Typos:
You use the word “roll” a bunch of places where you mean “role”.
Under scouts you use the word “conscience” when you mean “conscious”.

Mannahnin wrote:Re: Librarians:
I think you should talk a little more about Hellfire. IMO this is actually quite a decent power. I’ve always liked Wind of Chaos to make a character a squad killer. Compare- WoC always wounds on a 4+ and allows no save. Hellfire allows a save some of the time (depending on the target), but usually is at least S5, sometimes better. Not bad at all. If you could only get a darn Librarian with Ld10 (to make the psychic hood more dependable), I’d rank them right up at competitive.

You've hit it on the head with the leadership thing; the lack of a generic Ld 10 librarian has bit me a couple times now. I guess I could start taking Ezekiel, but at 50 pts more than the regular librarian he really doesn't seem worth it to me.

Hellfire is a pretty good power, although it irks me that I can't get an Inv sv (excepting Force Barrier, which I'm not a big fan of since you only get 1 save per turn and it prevents use of other powers) with my librarian unless I spend the 25 pts to put him in TDA.

I really think that the Dev squads with Plasma Cannons will be effective. Espically it the new rules about blast weapons are true. Blast weapons fire like ordance weapons do now and it acts like a flamer. So any model touched by it is hit. Also if the new rules are true then plasma cannons will no longer get hot seeing as you don't have to roll to hit.

Yup, plasma cannons are going to be unholy come 5th edition.

Can't wait to start burnanating some heretics...

Guys why has this much needed Tactica stopped being used???Some of us who are fairly new to DA need the advice and encouragement.