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Maybe I'm nuts, but don't whirlwinds have to roll spotting distance to shoot harlies (which means rarely).

I figure he's referring to mine fields. The clowns won't like assulting into and sweeping out of multiple mine fields (or having their assault targets dictated by where the minefileds are not).

Mech armies of all varieties are coming crashing down next summer so they arent a concern of any kind. I will soon post a new list with a couple power fists to better fight bugs. Don't change the topic of the discussion though. I think Orks have obvious weaknesses that one can exploit with templates and furious Assault Marines.

I also suggest a 4 heavy bolter dev squad. They do well not only against orks, but all armies. Eldar on foot, on bike, marines on foot or on bike, Tau...anything. Cause enough wounds and your opponent will fail saves.

The whirlwinds will not only be usefull against walking Orks, but also against the massess of homagaunts and termagaunts you will see bug players use to counter the ork hordes. Trouble will come from not only the Mech Eldar list that is so popular, but also the re-popularized "stealer shock" that you will be luck to get 2 rounds of shooting in against (if you go first that is).

That said, I think units of attack bikes with heavy bolters is more usefull than the 3 whirlwinds. 9 str 5 shots fired at BS3 and wound most every Ork on a 3 with no save will kill more than the points equivalent of 2 Whirlwinds. Plus they are FA so they deploy later than the majority of your opponents army allowing you know where your threats will be and they are excellent objective grabbers at the end of games with a 24" 3+InvSV turboboost.

A standard walking Ork force (Green Tide) will most definatly have some trouble with this. How do you counter Kopta Rush with first turn charges or KoS with 6 trukks screaming across the field. I understand that the assault marines are there for a counter assault role against the dumping off of HTH boys, but are there enough of them? What about Zagstruck and his crash then charge boys? Yes, the counter assault marines will kill whatever lands in your deployment zone, but then they are not shooting at or stopping the other 1200 points of Orks for 2 turns or more.

That said, I think units of attack bikes with heavy bolters is more usefull than the 3 whirlwinds. 9 str 5 shots fired at BS3 and wound most every Ork on a 3 with no save will kill more than the points equivalent of 2 Whirlwinds.

How do you figure that?

Assume (hate that word) your whirlwinds don't scatter and that your opponent has seen you have 3 large templates and has spaced each Ork in max 2" spread. The large template is centered over a single fig and covers it and gets 6 partial hits resulting through probability 3 more hits. Result is 4 hits per Whirlwind x 2 = 8 hits. At 67% wound ratio (needs 3s to wound) = 5.36 wounds after both whirlwinds fired and did not scatter.

Same thing with shooting from the bikes: 9 heavy bolter shots hit 6 times and kill 4 boys. Add in the twin-linked bolters for 2 more kills and you have 6 dead boys (assuming you are within 24 inches for the bolters to reach).

I guess I should have clarified that. Both units have their uses though (the whirlwind can get at those sneaky/hide behind terrain and pop out guys while the bikes are fast movers that can hold/contest objectives). The bikes free up another 20 points as well.

I see the problem: you're assuming Vengeance missiles. Those suck. Castellans are the ones you want. Put them where your opponent needs to go (for example, on a marker, or where your squads that s/he wants to assault are). They're a gift that keeps on giving.

Well, I think Therion is right, and this Marine army will slaughter pretty much any Ork army if played correctly.


If we were in a gladiator, takes no prisoners event, here's how I'd play it: the Space Marine army spends the first two turns laying six minefields directly in front of the gun line. I'm going to make sure that any close combat that happens during this game happens over a mine field. I may not beat you in hand to hand, but a 6 man las/plas squad can take a Boyz unit if they spend it fighting over a mine field. That's really going to put a hurt on any Ork army all by itself.

So now that we've taken close combat out of the equation, you are in a shooty war with a SAFH Space Marine army. Good luck.

lol Believe it or not, this is pretty much what my ideal SM army consists of.

The minefield marine list. I have read much discussion about it, but have never seen it do well in a tournament. Let me say it will not be effective in gladiators/Ard Boyz events and it will not be winning big RTT's/GT's. Has anyone seen these advance in big tourneys? It's like saying the counter to Orks is taking 5 Inquisitors with Holocaust, psycannon and 3 heavy bolter servitors. Nice, but then what happens when you play anything else.

DarthDiggler, I don't play in tourneys (and couldn't if I wanted to, due to location), but I don't see why dual/tri-WW couldn't do well. It isn't as if they're a cripplingly expensive gimmick; three will cost you as much as one Termi squad, and you don't necessarily need three. As for "what happens when you play anything else", why would this be that much of a problem? It's good against anything that needs to close with/assault you or JSJ and useful in any mission that needs you to hold a specific point (loot, center of table, etc.).

I guess I really don't know why it's not as good as advertised. It's one of those things that seems like a great idea, but when it's tried something gums up the works. It might be the fire dragons in serpents that swoop in for the easy kills. It might be the Whirlwinds don't always have comeplete los blocking to protect them from incoming fire. Maybe they scatter to much and maybe because it takes 3 heavy slots to get them those 3 slots could have been used to make the army more directly shooty and other shooty armies out shoot the 3 whirlie ones. It might be in the bigger tourneys their sportsmanship scores are tanked for bringing 3 whirlies with mines.

All I know is in the Gladiators I see someone bring it and I never see that person near the top tables. I didn't see any in Baltimore at the Ard Boyz and I've never heard of anyone finishing high in a GT with it. I have seen someone bring it to local RTT's in Chicagoland, but I didn't play it and the army didn't fare to well.

May have something to do with the points level. Remember that this is a 1500pt list, and the metagame is different.

In the US we're used to 1700, 1750, and 1850 tournaments most of the time. Most of the Gladiators I've seen have been 2000. Spamming 3 of anything is generally more powerful the smaller the points level of the game.