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Here's a fairly regular 1.5K all rounder Space Marine army. It does reasonably well against pretty much anything as long as its played by a someone with more than half a brain. So, after making tons and tons of all rounder 1.5K Ork lists and seeing the lists made by others, do you think the regular tourney Orks stand any chance whatsoever against it? My point is, considering that this SM list is just a regular shooty army with two or three mobile elements, the Orks have to be able to massacre lists like this consistently to be considered top tier. I can't see Orks beating this reliably. I have a feeling that Ork hordes and Gaunt hordes are going to be much more popular than ever before and that's why going with a SM list like this is smart play. What do you think?

HQ:

Epistolary
Space Marine Bike, Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon, Psychic Hood
Auspex, Frags, Fear, Fury

Elites:

6 Devastators
Tank Hunters
4 Missile Launchers

6 Devastators
Tank Hunters
4 Missile Launchers

6 Devastators
Tank Hunters
4 Missile Launchers

Troops:

6 Tactical Marines
Lascannon, Plasma Gun

6 Tactical Marines
Lascannon, Plasma Gun

Fast Attack:

6 Assault Marines
2 Flamers

6 Assault Marines
2 Flamers

Heavy Support:

Whirlwind

Whirlwind

Whirlwind

Total Points: 1500

I don't think a footslogging horde with a warboss on a bike and a few koptas is going to have a horrible time with this.

I think it'll come down to the epistolary getting lucky and rolling the 6 he needs to wound the warboss, because if he doesn't, the warboss alone will roll half this army.

mauleed wrote:I don't think a footslogging horde with a warboss on a bike and a few koptas is going to have a horrible time with this.

I think it'll come down to the epistolary getting lucky and rolling the 6 he needs to wound the warboss, because if he doesn't, the warboss alone will roll half this army.

So you're saying, the Orks should take only Shoota Boyz, Warbosses on Bike, and Deffkoptas, to stand a reliable chance? You're probably right. I just don't think that people will field that. One thing you're forgetting about the Warboss is that enough basic Marines will take him down, and we all know that all the SM will be within counter charge distance of eachother. Should one give Furious Charge to Assault Marines, 12 is enough to kill him in a single phase (3 unsaved wounds).

Well I'm saying that a top tier ork army is going to start off with 90 shootas, a warboss on a bike, and some deffkoptas.

The problem with that marine list is it really has no answer for a warboss on a bike, which is probably going to be pretty ubiquitous.

I played a game against godzilla nids last night and my warboss killed a flyrant, and two pimped out heavy support fexes all by himself before he went down. I'm actually considering dropping my mek to fit in a second one.

mauleed wrote:Well I'm saying that a top tier ork army is going to start off with 90 shootas, a warboss on a bike, and some deffkoptas.

The problem with that marine list is it really has no answer for a warboss on a bike, which is probably going to be pretty ubiquitous.

I played a game against godzilla nids last night and my warboss killed a flyrant, and two pimped out heavy support fexes all by himself before he went down. I'm actually considering dropping my mek to fit in a second one.

It's going to take four turns for those Shootas to become a threat unless the SM deploy as close to the Ork army as possible. The SM will have to prepare for a fast Warboss or two. I guess three units of Assault Marines (3x6 or 3x8) would take care of that problem. In 1500 points that means dropping one squad of those Devastators. One of the Assault Squads could be equipped with plasma pistols or a sergeant just to make sure. There's just no way Orks can deal with it, and even if they do manage to make a fight of it, I don't see them as the favorite here.

Additionally, a Chaplain might be a better HQ choice in this case.

If you are just looking to Beat Orks I would Suggest using Heavy Bolters in the Dev squads (atleast 2 out of the 3) And Get a Chappy w/ a thunder hammer, a Jump Pack and an Adamantium Mantle That should make short work of the warboss also get some Power fists in those assault squads.

I take it you're assuming it's a straight VP mission. Those are very much in the minority in the US right now, thanks to adepticon it seems, so just sitting in the corner isn't going to win much of anything over here.

Assault marines need a fist if they want to scare a warboss.

So you're saying, the Orks should take only Shoota Boyz, Warbosses on Bike, and Deffkoptas, to stand a reliable chance? You're probably right. I just don't think that people will field that. One thing you're forgetting about the Warboss is that enough basic Marines will take him down, and we all know that all the SM will be within counter charge distance of eachother. Should one give Furious Charge to Assault Marines, 12 is enough to kill him in a single phase (3 unsaved wounds).

They will based on what I have read so far in preview of the new dex. I think against orks I would make two of your three Dev squads heavy bolters. This would give you better odds against trucks, bikes, and deffkoptas along with thinning down big mobs. Your list also doesn't look like a take on all comers list. It already looks ork specific with three whirlwinds and just flamers in your assault squads sans powerfists.

Certain lists can rightly fear the Warboss on bike. Lose a whirlwind, move an elite missile unit to heavy and give both assault squads a vet with fist and now you have two units to track down the warboss on bike.

Killing a Flyrant with a warboss? Situations dictate all, but can't the Flyrant get the 12 devourer shots off first? If not run him with implant attack, +1 ws and acid maw. That configuration has been very common in the Chicagoland area since bugs first came out.

If the Warboss gets into combat before being shot, the Flyrant swoops in with 4 attacks - 3's to hit, 4's to wound with reroll and every wound does 2 wounds.

Now if you down't have anything to deal with the warboss it is lights out. If you don't need the kff, then pairing them up (taking 2 warboss' on bikes) would be very nice. They can double team the Flyrant (bugs can only get one) or double team the Daemon Prince ti insure success.

mauleed wrote:I take it you're assuming it's a straight VP mission. Those are very much in the minority in the US right now, thanks to adepticon it seems, so just sitting in the corner isn't going to win much of anything over here.

Assault marines need a fist if they want to scare a warboss.

I absolutely agree with both statements.

DarthDiggler wrote:Killing a Flyrant with a warboss? Situations dictate all, but can't the Flyrant get the 12 devourer shots off first? If not run him with implant attack, +1 ws and acid maw. That configuration has been very common in the Chicagoland area since bugs first came out.

He's an IC, how is the flyrant shooting him?

And he's only got 18" guns, so if you want to use him to kill anything, he has to expose himself. Personally, I would have held him back just to deal with the warboss, but this guy didn't, and he died.

Assault marines need a fist if they want to scare a warboss.

8 Assault Marines with Furious Charge and 2 Flamers. They can pretty much take a mob of 30 Orks out in one turn, and against a Warboss, they do 2 unsaved wounds already on the charge. Combine two of these units or one and unit of Tactical Marines and the boss is as good as dead. Should a Chaplain join a single unit of AM on the charge, that would be enough too.

Those are very much in the minority in the US right now

That's good for you. However, the old rule of 40K always stands. You won't have much going in the way of missions if all your army is dead.

My point was that when Marines take 3 Whirlwinds and some Assault Marines and back them up with couple missile launchers and lascannons, Orks can't hack it. It'll get a lot worse come 5th edition, when those Whirlwinds will be pinning every squad that falls below fearless level.

mauleed wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:Killing a Flyrant with a warboss? Situations dictate all, but can't the Flyrant get the 12 devourer shots off first? If not run him with implant attack, +1 ws and acid maw. That configuration has been very common in the Chicagoland area since bugs first came out.

He's an IC, how is the flyrant shooting him?

And he's only got 18" guns, so if you want to use him to kill anything, he has to expose himself. Personally, I would have held him back just to deal with the warboss, but this guy didn't, and he died.

Keeping the Warboss amongst the troops will preclude him being shot and just as long as you are not venturing out to the wings where a Flyrant can move 12" to make you the closest model you are safe. In that case you must keep the Flyrant back to counter the Warboss and not get greedy with him. With two warboss' on bikes, one can draw the flyrant out and the other can assault him. The Flyrant really needs the charge to make short work of the warboss, deny him that and you've got yourself a winged tyranid as a trophy.

Therion wrote:
8 Assault Marines with Furious Charge and 2 Flamers. They can pretty much take a mob of 30 Orks out in one turn, and against a Warboss, they do 2 unsaved wounds already on the charge. Combine two of these units or one and unit of Tactical Marines and the boss is as good as dead.

Well, your assault marines don't have furious charge. So now you're changing the parameters. Regardless, what I think you aren't accounting for is the fact that the orks are spread out. You simply can't kill a zillion of them on the charge, then you all scrum in and you've got a bunch of 2 attack marines fighting 15-20 orks with a powerclaw. My money is on the orks.

And yes, the assault marines with furious charge do 2 wounds, but the ones you fielded only do 1, and not even that when there are 6 of them, then get creamed. But even if he dies, he's only a 150 point model that just gutted two of your units (the devs he charged and the assault marines that came in to help). Just a little luck and he moves on to unit 3, while 100 of his buddies march forward.

My point was that when Marines take 3 Whirlwinds and some Assault Marines and back them up with couple missile launchers and lascannons, Orks can't hack it. It'll get a lot worse come 5th edition, when those Whirlwinds will be pinning every squad that falls below fearless level.

Well, I'm saying they can hack it, particularly in objective based games, which is what I, as a marine player would can field the list you tout, am worried about.

Well, your assault marines don't have furious charge. So now you're changing the parameters.

I drafted list in a minute or two, and you properly pointed out the holes in the list but not in my argument. So I'm changing the list.

You simply can't kill a zillion of them on the charge

Well I don't have to, because first I bombard them with 3 Whirlwinds and a bunch of frag missiles or heavy bolters (whichever setup should I use) for four turns.

Well, I'm saying they can hack it, particularly in objective based games, which is what I, as a marine player would can field the list you tout, am worried about.

My list wasn't perfect so I need to post a better one. I have to disagree about the objectives though. 40K is 40K, and unless it's a Recon most of the objectives are around the middle of the table. Space Marines can play defensive for four turns and assault the survivors off the objectives during the last two turns.

I would remind you that this is 1500 points we're talking about. You can't field your 1850p list in a 1.5K tournament.

In some of the more recent tournaments you need to actually get to your opponents deployment zone or alteast get far enough away from your own deployment zone to do anything. I have seen missions lost by marine players with static armies that decided to just kill enemy models and not go after objectives. When the marine player still had about 90% his army on the table and 1 objective and his opponent had 2 scoring units left and 2 objectives he was pissed.

Armies now of days need to be versatile and mobile.

In some of the more recent tournaments you need to actually get to your opponents deployment zone

That will be a little bit of a problem for the Orks, since anything that comes to the SM deployment zone, dies.

You give yourself to much credit. What if it's a shooty ork list that decides to stay put. I before you cry insanity I have seen some extremely shooty ork lists park in hard cove and out shoot thier marine equivalents and it's to early in the game to guess which ork list will come out on top. Three whirlwinds can definatley cause orks problems but in a tournament your whirlwinds get you nowhere and ork generals won't have to worry any way.

Lemartes wrote: but in a tournament your whirlwinds get you nowhere and ork generals won't have to worry any way.

That's what I'm curious about. Three Whirlwinds cost the equivalent of one large Devastator squad with a vet skill, so it hardly makes or breaks an army's chances in a tournament. Of course it's not going to be wonderfully effective against mechanised armies, but it nearly guarantees that Shoota Boyz or Gaunts won't be a problem. I think it's worth it, but that's not even the question here. The question is whether Orks can beat it.

Therion wrote:

In some of the more recent tournaments you need to actually get to your opponents deployment zone

That will be a little bit of a problem for the Orks, since anything that comes to the SM deployment zone, dies.

Not if it turbos on turn 6.

You're dead right that whirlwinds are a great counter to orks. But they're still 17% of your army, and not great against alot of other top tier stuff.

And don't forget escallation does a fantastic job of neutralizing them for the orks.

I really don't see how orks with a KFF would have a lot of trouble rolling this army.

Whirlwinds look like a darned good case for buying Snikrot.

In the current tournament scene Escalation makes up about 2% of all games. All GTs in the past year did not have a single escalation mission. And I think there might have been at most 1 at Adepticon so I would not worry to much about it in the end.

First its kind of cheezy to build an army specifically to fight another army and expose all its weaknesses, its not something you would ever field in any kind of competative tourney if you wanted an all comers list for prizes, it would just get you stomped by the other 7 armies it cant beat.

Second I am assuming your playing a friend with that list, who is building an army to fight you as well. It is pretty easy to guess what a marine player would take to specifically fight orks, and thus plan around it. A counter army to your army would probably include: 2 warboss on bikes, 4 or 5 trukk boy units, 3 koptas with a 24" scout move and buzzsaws (count as power klaws, although at str 6, 7 on the charge) snikrot with kommandoes and 2 burnas to come on YOUR side of the board, zagstuck to deepstrike and assault the same exact turn, also making them fearless. And probably 3 battlewagons on the cheap, just for the av 14 shielding for the trukks, and any that get there have a nice crusher wheel for d6 str 10 power attacks crushing your marines. I am fairly sure that build would absolutely crush yours, since were building our builds to beat each others armies specifically anyway.

Devastators with heavy bolters can take down almost everything in an Orkish army. I'd take at least one Dev squads with 4 heavy bolters.

mauleed:

You're dead right that whirlwinds are a great counter to orks. But they're still 17% of your army, and not great against alot of other top tier stuff.

Is that so? Serious question. I wouldn't know firsthand, but it seems to me that they're an excellent hard counter to stealers and harlies, a significant part of two very nasty top lists.

Therion wrote:Here's a fairly regular 1.5K all rounder Space Marine army. It does reasonably well against pretty much anything as long as its played by a someone with more than half a brain.

Don't forget guys, this is an all-rounder list. He's not building it to beat Orks specifically, he's asking how it'll fare against Orks.

Wow that is an all rounder list? I must have completely skipped over that part. Eh in a tourney it will do good against orks I supose, but mech eldar, space marine shfh, and mech tau along with a good chaos build will crush it.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Is that so? Serious question. I wouldn't know firsthand, but it seems to me that they're an excellent hard counter to stealers and harlies, a significant part of two very nasty top lists.

Maybe I'm nuts, but don't whirlwinds have to roll spotting distance to shoot harlies (which means rarely).

Eh in a tourney it will do good against orks I supose, but mech eldar, space marine shfh, and mech tau along with a good chaos build will crush it.

What Marine army has a better chance of dealing with mech eldar and tau? My experience has been the mech player has to make some serious errors to lose to a marine list.

mauleed, yes for the conventional pieplate, but unless someone I know has been deceiving me, you don't need to spot anything with castellans. You just target a point.