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Longshot wrote:I'm thinking another direction completely is the way to go.

Harlies are just too damned easy to butcher with a single rapid firing squad to be using squads of 10 of them.

This is true. I don't see anyone really sticking 30 Harlies in Wave Serpents, which really aren't "better". Necrons and Nids will now have a harder time downing them outright, but they are not more survivable. They'll deliver the package, then they'll die. It's certainly an improvement, but 6 Harlies is still a threat.

Everyone is so caught up with the whole troops thing, they keep forgetting that basic troops take it in the face from elites and fast attacks like nobody's business.

The exceptions would be Genestealers, Plague Marines, Emperor's Children, and hordes.

Hills are game winners. No hills...shooty armies take it in the tailpipe (which means mostly IG and Marines). Tau can see you in the back there...

Michel if you take vectored engines, you'll still just be immobilized. Harlies vs Banshees is still a tossup. Harlies work well against most armies and most units. Banshees don't have that kind of flexibility.

Expect to see squads of foot-slogging Harlequins screened by Avatar-boosted Guardians, similar to gaunt screened genestealers.

And if the harlequins become foot slogging, then does that integrally change the makeup of the optimal squad. Does this mean we might start seeing Death Jesters again?

Screening them with Guardians will be a bad idea if the pdf is accurate and units are forced to take a morale check if another unit falls back through them.

Shouldn't the Avatar anchoring the the phalanx keep them from falling back?

Maybe it should be. But then maybe it gets shot to death since it's a Monstrous Creature and leaves the Guardians on their regular Ld and the Harlequins out of position.

Death jesters? Say it ain't so. =p

Vaelar, you can kill the Avatar. So he better have a Farseer buddy around to fortune him, and be able to take all the firing a typical army can put out.

It's a little too gimmicky for my taste. The army won't be so dandy once the Avatar falls...and you really restrict your own firing with large screens.

Shooting killing the Avatar with Fortune on him seems like something that's just plain hard to do, but maybe that's just me.

And with the ability to run, making those all important scoring troops Fearless seems like things may work out nicely for him.

It is, but if it breaks your army into manageable chunks with gak leadership and poor CC; why not do it?

Assaulting the Avatar should be improbable at best with a horde of Eldar around him, so shooting is it.

Even with re-rolls from fortune, alot of armies out there can put the hurt on him. 2 turns? Is that enough to get your army across the board? I don't reckon it is. To the objectives, yes...but what good is that if you get shot/assaulted off them? I suppose you could try and hide the Avatar, he is a teeny MC model. Unless you have the FW model, then it's not gonna hide behind anything lol.

I concur that Harlequins will be weaker choices in the new age, if that pdf is true.

1. Fewer rends
2. Comparative speed advantage decreased
3. Transport more vulnerable
4. Elite units no longer scoring/lots of KP for foe
5. No kill zone means all foes in combat zone strike back.

Alright here is my reasoning behind liking serpents
1. Serpents have energy field which decrease all weapons to str 8
2. From str 8 it takes a 5+ not to glance.
If the PDF is to be believed glancing hits net you a -2 on the damage table. With -2 to your roll you would need a 6 just to immobilize the serpent. A str 8 shot from a marine has a 22% chance of penning, and that about 1/5 of the time. On top of everything you get the 5+ invulnerable. Serpent aren't invincible, but you can get them a 3+ cover save with creative use of terrain and it's hard to pen them so the become a bitch to bring down. Falcon will always have HF but it's easier to pen a falcon.

Serpent wont be 4th ed falcons but they are cheaper and you can get more of them. All in all they are about as tough as landraiders.

Nice analysis. Food for thought.

I don't think they are as tough as LR's by any means, however.

Stelek wrote:

Savnock wrote:Um, they're less likely to rend. I'd call that worse, unless you're into your opponents getting attacks back. True, a wipeout is less likely and you're therefore better protected from enemy shooting, but I'd rather consolidate into cover and hide behind the Veil than have to worry about making more 5+ saves against CC attacks.

How can they be more dangerous than before? They rend less. For fast delivery (mech), their best transport option is nerfed. Finally, the rest of the infantry are catching up to them in speed, whether to close with or evade them.

What got better for them in 5th?

Considering everyone elses army in the whole game gets to re-roll only the HITS (like say a SM Chaplain) the downgrading to Rending hurts everyone.

However, Harlies supported by Doom get additional chances to rend.

Genestealers don't need support but end up costing a little bit more.

So it's really not all that bad when compared to say the Death Company, which cannot re-roll the to-wounds.

Harlequins are, strangely enough, enticed to stay in combat so they lose their strength bonus giving them less fewer attacks but more chances to re-roll and rend.

There's a silver lining, if you just look for it. Oh and play some games.

Stelek, thanks for pointing out the bit about Doom. Hadn't noticed that. That makes it a little better. Kind of bites to have to use a power where we didn't before, though. I remain throughly unconvinced that they "got better", even comparatively, when they now take a Farseer babysitter to do less than they did before.

As for playing games with the the rules, I'm straining between wanting to be ahead of the curve versus sulking about the massive nerfage and swearing I'll stick to 4th plus some house rules. I'll probably get trial 5th a game in this weekend with an all-foot list (Pathfinders, Guardians, Eldravatard, Vibrocannons and Scorpions, maybe with 3-elf Jesterfied Harlies for flavor). But I'm pretty pissed about the ridiculous run rule and the crappy static vehicles. And defensive weapons going away, making CC even more powerful. This next edition is a step back to 3rd if it looks even vaguely like the .pdf.

Grrr. Guess the strategic advantage of greater familiarity wins out and I'l try these crappy-looking rules. Damnit.

Oh they didn't really get better, but at least you can make them almost-as-good.

Everyone else can't.

So while your power compared to 4th might drop, you can boost it. Everyone elses power just drops.

Apples and oranges.

I agree with your complaints about the rules as currently written, they don't make me want to play 40K--they make me want to quit. Like 2nd edition did.

Since all Snipers have the new rending, the Pathfinders can be AP1 on hit rolls of 5,6 and wound rolls of 6. Considering they have 2+ cover save in woods, and the emphasis on troops, I'd say a couple reasonably large units could be useful. Doom is nice with the new rending, and a doomed monstrous creature should die to a single squad of Pathfinders. Because of the requirement on fortune and doom, I'd say Eldrad Ulthran is a must have. He is so flexible.

Man ratlings just got really good for their points.

on topic.
I think a serpent heavy army could do fairly well. Again it's not going to be the tri falcon force. But people are going to have a harder time shooting down a lot of serpents, especially if you heavy support are 3 waitlords bearing down on you.
Serpent scorpions are going to be a paint to counter when they come flanking.

gdurant wrote:Man ratlings just got really good for their points.

on topic.
I think a serpent heavy army could do fairly well. Again it's not going to be the tri falcon force. But people are going to have a harder time shooting down a lot of serpents, especially if you heavy support are 3 waitlords bearing down on you.
Serpent scorpions are going to be a paint to counter when they come flanking.

or Avatar + Wave Serpents + Wraithlords + Harlies in a Falcon

I sincerely hope skimmers don't block LoS because the fish of fury style tactics have given something to the game. I'm thinking Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers here.

Eldrad and another farseer with a crapload of pathfinders, and wraithlords with EML/BRightlance, looks like a pretty sick frigging army to me.

Three fortunes and two dooms per turn.

Longshot wrote:Eldrad and another farseer with a crapload of pathfinders, and wraithlords with EML/BRightlance, looks like a pretty sick frigging army to me.

Three fortunes and two dooms per turn.

If the new strong lists are more horde-oriented, will a whole bunch of pathfinders and armour killing WLs be able to handle them? Once the pathfinders are assaulted, they die pretty easy.

randyc9999 wrote:

Longshot wrote:Eldrad and another farseer with a crapload of pathfinders, and wraithlords with EML/BRightlance, looks like a pretty sick frigging army to me.

Three fortunes and two dooms per turn.

If the new strong lists are more horde-oriented, will a whole bunch of pathfinders and armour killing WLs be able to handle them? Once the pathfinders are assaulted, they die pretty easy.

Not by themselves, but with support. A Falcon with Scatter Laser and a Shuriken Cannon isn't mobile - but it's reasonably tough with cover and Fortune. If you Guide it, then it will be killing nearly 1/3 of a Boyz squad a turn.

Dire Avengers give you mobile scoring units, and Bladestorm will also carve into a Doomed Ork squad nicely.

I think Eldar will need to use a combined arms list to be able to take on both MEQ and OEQ.

Asmodai wrote:
Not by themselves, but with support. A Falcon with Scatter Laser and a Shuriken Cannon isn't mobile - but it's reasonably tough with cover and Fortune. If you Guide it, then it will be killing nearly 1/3 of a Boyz squad a turn.

Dire Avengers give you mobile scoring units, and Bladestorm will also carve into a Doomed Ork squad nicely.

I think Eldar will need to use a combined arms list to be able to take on both MEQ and OEQ.

Is there anything in this Falcon that will be moving only 6"? Do you see static DA units or mobile ones? I'm rather pessimistic about mobile DAs due to the change in skimmers and LOS.

In 4th, I only ever ran 1 or 2 falcons, but I still usually only ever had 2 troops (be they jet bikes, guardians, or DAs in WSs) because the stuff that won me games were my units in the elite or fast slots. In some of the other threads, people are advocating more troop units due to the new missions. How many troop units do people think are going to be necessary now for Eldar in the 1500-1700 point range?

I'd do something like:
Eldrad - 210
Farseer with stones/doom/fortune - 130 or 135, i forget
2 x 10 pathfinders = 480
3 x wraithlord with EML/Brightlance - 465

Base: 1280ish base

Then add whatever to taste.

You could add 3 squads of bladestorming dire avengers.

You could add 3 squads of striking scorpions.

You could add 9 vypers with dual shuricannons.

You could add a bunch of shining spears. Whatever.

Longshot wrote:I'd do something like:
Eldrad - 210
Farseer with stones/doom/fortune - 130 or 135, i forget
2 x 10 pathfinders = 480
3 x wraithlord with EML/Brightlance - 465

Base: 1280ish base

A very solid start. I kind of think the second Farseer, while helpful, isn't as cost-effective as just adding more troops, or something really killy.. like the Eldravatard combo.

Then add whatever to taste.

You could add 3 squads of bladestorming dire avengers.

You could add 3 squads of striking scorpions.

You could add 9 vypers with dual shuricannons.

You could add a bunch of shining spears. Whatever.

For the list you propose, lots of advancing foot Dire Avengers would do the job nicely. Or 2x Avengers and 1x Scorpions would also kick donkey.

Sadly, all those 2x shuricannon Vypers got nerfed so hard, they'll never see daylight again. Stupid defensive weapon rules...

What we will see is ARMIES! not my collection of Heavies and Elite choices...Winnning the game will be based on the ability to think and accomplish the mission instead of who can PWN with the killiest list.

Madness! wrote:What we will see is ARMIES! not my collection of Heavies and Elite choices...Winnning the game will be based on the ability to think and accomplish the mission instead of who can PWN with the killiest list.

Your halfway right there.
Your still going to see alot of armies that win by murdering peoples scoring units. Foe example gun line guard will probably try to murder peoples toops while DS'ing their extra platoons onto objectives.

Madness! wrote:What we will see is ARMIES! not my collection of Heavies and Elite choices...Winnning the game will be based on the ability to think and accomplish the mission instead of who can PWN with the killiest list.

Where are these people coming from.

I don't play eldar, but I play against eldar probably 6 games a month. I've seen every iteration of every eldar unit.

It blows me away that more people don't see the strength in a smallish harlie unit on foot with a death jester. Why the hell would you buy a shadowseer, get one of the most borked rules in the game, and then spend all game trying desperately to get close to your opponent.

You spend 250 points for a 10 man pathfinder unit, you fortune it, now protect it with some counter attack, or you could just give it away to horde assault or fast assault. 6 harlies with a death jester hanging out next to a pathfinder unit are an absolute terror. I need to get around 14" away from them to shoot them? they are shooting all game until they MAKE you get next to them, then they get to charge you.

The only reason that people actually load them into a falcon, completely wasting their access to veil of tears, and then charge into CC, then consolidate within 6" of an armies shooting, is because the current falcon and current harlequins are redonkulously under-costed.

In order to get the appropriate value from 5th edition, properly costed, "nerfed" harlies. You have to utilize the tools they have access to. 'You can't shoot me' rules are rare and OP, strength 6 shots that cause pinning from an unshootable unit, and finally enough countercharge strength to beat down sufficiently weakened aggressive units. Thinned out hordes and small units of elite assault troops are dead meat, in 5th just as much as in 4th.

I don't akcnowledge the crocodile tears from falcon/harlie abusers that are shocked and hurt by GWs nerfing of skimmers and rending. there seems to be a lot of people here that understand what potential the harlies have as a unit. These people also understand that the current usage of harlies in transports used as fast assault is wasteful, its only successful based on their current cost to damage output. And it is very cool to see some new hope for units like striking scorpions and their "new" ability to be held in reserve and fly in on a wave serpent with a 66% chance to pick the short table edge you wanna flank with. And howling banshees being able to fleet from behind a screening unit from foot, or take to a wave serpent and have more confidence and less fear of pinning. No entanglement and no re-rolling wound rolls from fast moving transports gives them a ton more survivability, they have access to "extra armor" so they can ignore the new "crew and passengers stunned" result. Big space marine units squatting on objectives are going to be an important target for eldar. Banshees make a strong case for being the tool you choose to solve that problem.

tirade over, to answer OP IMO...

harlies are a great multipurpose shooty unit slash countercharge unit. it doesn't need any support so it can be "bolted on" to any shooty list you run, to come to the aid of the 'vulnerable to assault' pathfinders you'll undoubtedly be taking. They aren't so overpowered as to be taking other peoples wave serpents and going for a ride. If you want fast, transported assault elements, I think a mixture of striking scorpions and howling banshees is the right idea. Scorpions get the bonus of being great flankers for the "dawn of war" deployment (only 1 hq and 2 troops start on table anyway) and banshees get the nod for anti-meq scoring unit killers. If you know your opponent the choices get easier, but for 'take on all comers' I'd say go with a mix of banshees and scorps for an aggressive killy list, and leave them both home for harlies for a defensive "go second" reaction force based on pathfinders dire avengers and an avatar.

and then you realize your running a list that has precisely 3 scoring units (that don't want to move) and gives away something like 5000 KPs.

This edition is basically going to be about maxing out your troop choices and ignoring everything else. In other words, sell your Eldar now while they're still worth something.

Or just wait 4 years for 6th edition when Troops are worthless and Elites dominate the game.