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Probably not worth dissecting the exact wording of the leaked document over. Just a silly idea that will get abused like crazy if it's legit with models blocking los and the run move.

Russell wrote:cool idea and the 5th ed rules are written vaugly on this issue but I think they imply that you can not shoot though the gaps in a screening unit. The conscripts have to get right out of the way for the las plas to fire not just open gaps.

5th edition pdf page 16:
"All models, friends and enemies, block line of sight of the firer. In addition, if a model is partially obscured by friendly or enemy models, it cannot be targeted and counts as not visible. This means that firing models are not allowed to shoot though the gaps between the members of an intervening unit."

Seems rather clear to me, you can't fire though the coherency lines of a unit.

Phoenix, thats my reading of the rules too.

But the rules are written weirdly. It is 'Possible' for a model to have a clear and unobstructed line of sight through 2"coherency gaps, so why the rules seem to think this is impossible is unclear.

Hmm I might be wrong, but as far as I remember theres also the rule that once one model of a unit can see a model of an enemy unit, the whole unit can shoot and casualties can be removed from the whole enemy unit.

This sounds pretty comfortable. You dont check firing lines for every model seperately. Instead theres only one obvious line of sight needed and the case is settled.

It also makes screening less easy to do and simpler to circumvent, when a single gap in the screen allows to fire past.

Finally unintentionally screening your own troops in a mass infantry Guard army for example will be less of a problem. You could deploy like this:

(E= Enemy, G= Guardsmen)

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

GGGGGGGG............
..GGGGGGGGG........
......GGGGGGGGG....
..........GGGGGGGGG

In this scenario all Guardsmen-units can shoot the whole enemy unit.

Maybe someone with the leaked document can confirm/deny this.

Phoenix wrote:I think this ends up being one of those "You can use modeling to your advantage" things. If you can draw ling of sight over models to other models you can fire on them. So if you have enemy troops shooting into your necron army and there are scarabs followed by warriors followed by destroyers, the enemy should be able to shoot whatever he wants since the scarabs are smaller than the warriors and the warriors are smaller than the destoyers (if they are on flight bases). I think that the back rows of models will get cover saves because of the ones in front partialy obscuring them though.

This always bones me cause i make my stuff for aesthetics rather than in game function.

Sidenote: My friend back in 3rd ed. made a kneeling WL that was impossible to target. It was funny for the first few games...

Raider wrote:Hmm I might be wrong, but as far as I remember theres also the rule that once one model of a unit can see a model of an enemy unit, the whole unit can shoot and casualties can be removed from the whole enemy unit.

Close. It's actually that if a firing model can see any model in the target, his shooting may wound any model in that target. Each gun needs a valid LOS to one enemy, but all enemies can be wounded if one can be.

So in your example, only the guardsmen with an unobstructed view to a single enemy model could fire, however all enemy models are viable targets for receiving wounds.

Where is the advantage in such a deployment? They can shoot but also can be shot. I don't see a problem here, it just de-complicates the whole line of sight issue.

Greets
Schepp himself

Yeah thats what I mean. Its not complicated and rather fair.

FearPeteySodes wrote:

Phoenix wrote:I think this ends up being one of those "You can use modeling to your advantage" things. If you can draw ling of sight over models to other models you can fire on them. So if you have enemy troops shooting into your necron army and there are scarabs followed by warriors followed by destroyers, the enemy should be able to shoot whatever he wants since the scarabs are smaller than the warriors and the warriors are smaller than the destoyers (if they are on flight bases). I think that the back rows of models will get cover saves because of the ones in front partialy obscuring them though.

This always bones me cause i make my stuff for aesthetics rather than in game function.

Sidenote: My friend back in 3rd ed. made a kneeling WL that was impossible to target. It was funny for the first few games...

The thing is that now its not as bad as it used to be. Before you could shoot through your own units but not enemy units. This made things like the kneeling dreadnaught really good because it could shoot without being shot. This is no longer the case. We'll ignore the fact that its a monsterous creature now for a moment and just treat it like normal infantry. Now if you have a model thats been converted to be smaller than normal, not only can the enemy not shoot it, but it can't shoot the enemy. Its a very even, two way street now. If the enemy can see and shoot you, you can see and shoot the enemy. The only possible exception to this is when you get to vehicles where range and line of sight of a fireing vehicle is drawn from the gun barrels while shots to the tank are traced from the shooter to the hull.

So how will this work for a shoota heavy ork army? I'm just getting ready to build a 150 shoota boy army. Is this gonna really hurt my army once 5th edition comes out?

Phoenix wrote: [...] Its a very even, two way street now. If the enemy can see and shoot you, you can see and shoot the enemy. [...]

I've been re-checking the wording, and I don't think that this is the case. The problem is that the requirements for firing are not symmetrical; the firer must have fully unobstructed LOS from their eyes to the whole of a model in the targeted unit, and it is possible to meet this requirement without the target being able to meet it in return.

For instance, models close to the target can block LOS if they obscure the target's ankles, but a short model near the firer will not necessarily obscure the target. Tyranid warriors firing over rippers is a prime example. The rippers, if placed close to the warriors, block LOS to the warriors' legs from most angles. The warriors are so much taller, however, that LOS can easily be drawn from the warriors' eyes over the heads of the rippers. For sufficiently distant targets, the enemy models will not be obscured at all by the rippers and can thus be shot by the warriors (who can not be shot in return). If you model your warriors standing taller and your rippers hugging the ground it gets even worse, expanding the range of angles through which the warriors can draw unobstructed LOS.

Obviously this can be done anytime a firing model is screened by a model shorter than the shooter's eye level, though the closer in height the screener is to the firer, the longer the necessary range is to draw a clear LOS. It's also not very practical unless the screening unit is close to the firing unit, which could make the firing unit more exposed to scattering blasts.

It's hard to say how common this will be without actually getting out various combinations of screening and firing units and checking sight lines with a laser pointer, but, based on everything I can find in the leaked rules, one-way LOS is absolutely possible. Hopefully that has been/will be cleaned up for release.

The one way LOS stuff annoys me already. Stuff like that having a whole unit minus one guy behind a wall. They can't shoot out, but can be shot at. I wonder if this edition will expand people's use of House Rules.

[edit=nevermind]

Phoenix wrote:

Russell wrote:cool idea and the 5th ed rules are written vaugly on this issue but I think they imply that you can not shoot though the gaps in a screening unit. The conscripts have to get right out of the way for the las plas to fire not just open gaps.

5th edition pdf page 16:
"All models, friends and enemies, block line of sight of the firer. In addition, if a model is partially obscured by friendly or enemy models, it cannot be targeted and counts as not visible. This means that firing models are not allowed to shoot though the gaps between the members of an intervening unit."

Seems rather clear to me, you can't fire though the coherency lines of a unit.

I strongly suspect that the final printing will make clear that the “gaps between members” bit is going to mean you can’t draw LOS over models’ bases, despite the fact that you can physically see between the guys. In 3rd edition this was how screening worked. You had to be in base contact to do it. If you could draw LOS between the bases, you could shoot through. So as soon as some models get removed, both sides will be able to draw LOS through the hole in the unit.

Mannahnin wrote:
I strongly suspect that the final printing will make clear that the “gaps between members” bit is going to mean you can’t draw LOS over models’ bases, despite the fact that you can physically see between the guys. In 3rd edition this was how screening worked. You had to be in base contact to do it. If you could draw LOS between the bases, you could shoot through. So as soon as some models get removed, both sides will be able to draw LOS through the hole in the unit.

Well it's all speculation at this point. I'm guessing that the writers intend for units to block line of sight through their coherency lines. In 3rd edition, screening wasn't really effective since your guys had to be in base to base in order to screen anything behind them and as soon as they started taking any kind of damage, they fell appart really quickly and allowed the screened unit to be shot. I believe they are trying to work it out so that this isn't the case anymore, however, like I said before, this is all speculation. The best lead we have to work with is the leaked pdf which currently doesn't allow for shooting through coherency lines. Only time will tell what we actualy end up with.

Phoenix wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:
I strongly suspect that the final printing will make clear that the “gaps between members” bit is going to mean you can’t draw LOS over models’ bases, despite the fact that you can physically see between the guys. In 3rd edition this was how screening worked. You had to be in base contact to do it. If you could draw LOS between the bases, you could shoot through. So as soon as some models get removed, both sides will be able to draw LOS through the hole in the unit.

Well it's all speculation at this point. I'm guessing that the writers intend for units to block line of sight through their coherency lines. In 3rd edition, screening wasn't really effective since your guys had to be in base to base in order to screen anything behind them and as soon as they started taking any kind of damage, they fell appart really quickly and allowed the screened unit to be shot. I believe they are trying to work it out so that this isn't the case anymore, however, like I said before, this is all speculation. The best lead we have to work with is the leaked pdf which currently doesn't allow for shooting through coherency lines. Only time will tell what we actualy end up with.

What was the problem with this? It made people seriously consider how their models are set up.



Also, does this mean that people love grots again?

Does this whole LOS change mean that flanking a formation will actually mean something? All of the discussion has been focused on formations firing to the front, but if there is a significant threat on the flank of the formation (e.g. marine assault squad) then the above formations would have a hard time turning to bring their weapons to bear before the assault squad got there. Hence, I think that the turtling approach will encourage people to take more diverse lists, i.e. ones that can take advantage of LOS games by presenting multiple threats at several points along the enemy line. If so, I think that this may have been a good call by the dev team, although, we'll need to wait and see if coherency lines still block LOS or not.

Army formation will, unit formation still wont.

Tried a game with the new rules. Ravinwing bikes coming in off the flank got hit by one squad at a time. Nobody else could challenge them. Was great.

That's the exact situation that I'm thinking of; does this mean that scouts will be king in 5th? I guess it won't make too much of a difference with super speedy jump-pack type lists, but I think this may be the end of static gun lines. Maybe?