Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Being an IC works the same way as being fearless detailed above. As soon as he is a unit of one model that is an IC, I see no reason why he wouldn't immediately benefit from IC rules, as he "melts into the background," so to speak.

ColonelEllios wrote:Being an IC works the same way as being fearless detailed above. As soon as he is a unit of one model that is an IC, I see no reason why he wouldn't immediately benefit from IC rules, as he "melts into the background," so to speak.

Well the thing here is that RAW the IC is still part of the unit he was attached to untill such time as he in movement can move away from said unit.

Hard core this would meen that if he was part of a unit that got wiped and got pinned he would infact be part of that wiped unit with all that this entails for targeting him so on and so forth for the remainder of the oponents turn (in wich killing took place) the whole turn in wich he is pinned, the whole following oponents turn (at wich time ha would still be targetable even if he was not the closest on a Ld test) and untill the movement phase in the IC players turn after that. All RAW.

As the IC was fearless, he would then be member of a unit with all its members fearless and thus he would automatically pass his pinning test as well as any Ld test he has to take to avoid falling back, if this happens in CC be sure to remember to work out any No Retreat! (p48) wounds, I am here asuming the IC unit lost the CC.

No, RAW indicates that a unit consisting of an independent character has unique targeting restrictions.

It doesn't matter that he was part of an infantry unit; just like fearless as soon as he's the sole comprising member of said unit his IC status should kick in.

You should realize your interpretation is wrong because that bit of nonsense about a pinned IC being a valid normal target for two turns is just that...nonsense. Pinned or not, he's still a unit comprised solely of an IC. The wording for retinues reinforces this point, "if not accompanied by a retinue, the [insert name here] is treated as an independent character." (to paraphrase multiple codexes.)

Please tell me a rules reference to what you have just claimed.

I claim that the rules covering when an IC may join or leave a unit is described on page 50.

There it states and I quote:
"An independent character may only join or leave a unit during the Movement phase."

Not much gray there in my opinion.

Now if you can point me to a 4th edition rule that grants an IC the right to break that rule I will be very happy. In third edition an independent character actually reverted back to IC as soon as he became alone but this is not the case as far as I can tell in 4th.

Thus like it or not the IC remains part of the wiped unit untill atleast the IC's next movement phase.

Moreover it states that the IC has to move out of coherency with the unit in order to leave it, thus he will not leave a unit he is part of if he does not move and thus if being pinned he will not leave the unit... wiped or not.

Ex your Mek with a shokkatakkgun wants to shoot his gin (move or fire) but also wishes to leave the remnants of a boyz mob he was hiding... ehh leading. By the letter of the rules he can not both leave the unit and remain stationary, he himself must move out of coherency, the orks moving away from him is not enough and if they did he would have to ither move out of the unit or move to remain in coherency, silly yes, but still the rules.

That is RAW.
I do not however think that its RAI and I dont play it like that but I do consider the IC as part of the unit for any post combat tests such as morale and pinning and I do consider a unit that has fired on the unit in wich an IC is part to be allowed to charge said IC even if the unit he was with is wiped.

The problem you have is that you are aplying logic, logically an IC on his own should follow the IC rules, yes in many ways I agree but quite frequently logic and rules do not go hand in hand and this is one such situation.

I do hope you are right, I do hope you can simply state that on page XX in the rulebook it states that or that in an official FAQ <linked> it states that but having looked into the issue for my earlier post in this thread I would be suprised if you could provide such information.

What someone fails to recognize is that an IC loses IC status when he joins a unit, and that there is no RAW provision for an IC to leave a unit until the IC has the opportunity to move.

The status of being in a unit is NOT dependant upon other models still being alive.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The status of being in a unit is NOT dependant upon other models still being alive.

Exactly.

myself wrote:It doesn't matter that he was part of an infantry unit; just like fearless as soon as he's the sole comprising member of said unit his IC status should kick in.

It doesn't matter that he's the "same" unit that he joined. I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is that when he's the sole comprising member of said unit, the rules that depend on him being the only member of a unit kick in (that would be the IC rules).

It even makes "common sense" if you consider the IC rule that says something like "too difficult to target among the countless other troops swarming around..." or somesuch.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The status of being in a unit is NOT dependant upon other models still being alive.

I 100% agree on this one

ColonelEllios
An IC looses all his speaial and nifty IC powers when he joins a unit.

To regain those powers he will have to leave the unit.

The only time when he can leave a unit is in his movement phase.

Thus even if he is the only model left in a unit he will not count as having left said unit and thus will not count as an IC despite being alone.

That is RAW but like I say time and time again I dont like RAW, GW is terrible at writing rules that actually RAW does what they want the rules to do.

And again you use "common sense", if you wish to talk about indepth rules interpretations then you have to forget common sense, forget logic, forget reason, forget fluff descriptions to describe the cinematic reason of a rule.

If I join my IC with a unit of one stealth suit (his buddies are dead, are out to tea, got beaten by kroots...) then it would be just as difficulty in target the IC among the countless other troops swarming around... or somthing but in reality he can be targeted just as easilly as any other unit just for joining a stealth suit model.

The rules are the rules and for IC leaving units they have joined there is one and only one time when this is possible.

Thank you fester for that well-reasoned reply. You have helped me see the issue in a new light.

fester wrote:To regain those powers he will have to leave the unit.

I have to respond, however, that I do not see the justification for what I can only posit is your assumption that I quoted above.

This short sentence does not appear to be validated by any rules that I'm aware of. The I.C. rules stipulate only that they apply to a unit consisting of an independent character, which, given our example of an IC being the sole remaining survivor of a unit he joined, certainly seems to fit the bill.

As for the "common sense" argument; I wasn't mentioning it as some sort of "proof" that I was right; common sense plays no part in RAW. I agree with that. However, it does support my point. I think it makes my solution all the more attractive, and also still in accordance with the RAW. I used this same metric (with much less success) in the Guardian Platform thread from YakFAQ (about the two models in a team being different). But I digress.

I dont really see your problem ither.

IC have special rules, I agree.
p50 rulebook.

Many of the IC special rules are lost to an IC if he joins a unit.
p50 rulebook.

This can only be done in the movement phase by moving into coherency of a unit and declaring that he joins it (takes charge).
p50 rulebook.

According to the rules there is only one way for an IC to revert back to becoming an IC and that is by leaving the unit.
p50 rulebook.

Again this can only be done in the movement phase by the IC moving out of coherency of the unit.
p50 rulebook.

Thus an IC that is the sole survivor of shooting, an IC that has been placed out of coherency because of shooting, tank shock is still considered part of that unit and follow the rules for being part of that unit.

Likewise if a unit moves away from an IC he will not become an IC again but will be forced to ither move himself or move into coherency with the unit he is part of.

As far as I can tell there is nothing anywhere in the rules that states that a model with the IC rule instantly reverts back to IC if he becomes alone.

Now if you know of such a rule then please make a reference to it, I point you to pages in the rulebook all you have done is stated that you think it works one way, that is thus your opinion and thus completely uninteresting unless backed upp by a rule.

Noone would be happer than me if you could show me the rule but untill then...

Fester: It's so nice to see someone else actually reference the rulebook!

Unfortunately, you haven't been referencing the rulebook directly; you've been paraphrasing it and, in the process, have added your own interpretation to the wrote of the rules.

P. 50, specifically the section about ICs joining and leaving other units, doesn't actually ever strip ICs of their special status; in fact, they continue to fight as their own unit, but rather a bunch of extra rules stipulations are added in about how an IC joined to another unit actually works.

In truth, the phrase, "Independent Characters...fight as a unit in their own right" is never modified. While they become "part of" a unit when declared as joining it, by the RAW I can't see any justification that they should actually be treated as a single unit. There are additional stipulations about how IC units joined to another unit interact with the shooting rules and fallback/pinned status, but they never actually "lose" their I.C. status; this is more of a mental heuristic that a lot of people mistakenly extend to mean that the IC and the joined unit actually are one single unit.

The falsehood of this assumption can be proven not only by the assault rules for ICs--in which they fight as their own, separate unit--but also by the "Retinue" rules that accompany most I.C. entries (these stipulate, at least in the DH and (old) Eldar codex that an IC whose retinue is destroyed immediately reverts to his former independent status.)

EDIT: To add, certain rules such as Fearless or Fleet and others are actually *stated* as being "lost" while the IC accompanies a unit without identical abilities. Unlike the IC status, abilities like "Fearless" are in fact null until the IC breaks away from the joined unit. However, the argument that the unit no longer exists because it was destroyed leads me to believe that as soon as that character is all alone, regardless who he had joined himself to, he reverts to his IC status, regains all of his inherent abilities, and continues to fight "as a unit in his own right." Basically, the only way a fearless character would ever fall back or be pinned, by my reading, is if some of the squad he had joined still lives.

No, an IC who joined an unit loses IC status.

The only exception is in Close Combat, when he is treated as (but isn't) a separate unit consisting of a single model. If the rest of the unit breaks from CC, the IC will break with them - he doesn't stay behind to hold up the fight.

jahnhwangdd wrote:No, an IC who joined an unit loses IC status.

Really? Can you back this up with a written rule? Didn't think so...

Shooting is at Units. An IC which joins a unit is hit as part of the unit. Therefore, he no longer has IC status.

Read the rules. This isn't very difficult.

Really? "Part of that unit" somehow translates to "loses IC status?"

Interesting.

We *are* debating the RAW, right?

Well if he's part of the unit then he's affected by things that affect that unit. Things that affect a unit would be morale checks from taking 25% casualties, or a squad charging him because they fired at that unit during the shooting phase. He may still be an IC, but he's also part of the unit. I don't see how the unit is destroyed until either the IC (and all models from the unit he joined) is destroyed OR it gets a movement phase and decides to leave the unit.

There's no "debate", aside from what you're willfully ignoring about when ICs leave units and/or creating how ICs suddenly lose their joined unit status.

The easy way to think of it, from a Fluff POV, is that the IC holds the severed limb of someone from the unit until his next movement phase.

Oh, yeah, now that you're trolling again, I'm coming out of this discussion. No food for you!

ColonelEllios
Ok, lets go allll the way back to the start.

The initial question was about shooting, the situation was as follows:
A unit with a joined IC is wiped by weapons including a pinning weapon, leaving the IC alone.

Does the IC have to take a pinning test?
Does he have to make a Ld test for the unit suffering 25% casualties and if so does the unit count as under 50% strength.
May a unit that fired on the unit charge the IC in the assault phase.

You got into the debate after hellsguardian316 took upp the issue if a fearless IC would count as fearless if he is the only model left in the unit.

At this point you came in and untill after my repeted reference to page 50 have not made a single rules reference, a post in wich I may add you wrote:

ColonelEllios wrote:Fester: It's so nice to see someone else actually reference the rulebook!

You then procede to claim that the p50 rules state that the IC state is unchanged when joining a unit... well to be picky in reality p50 only refers to Identification of what an IC is, how he moves while on his own, rules for joining and leaving units and how to deal with conflicting universal and other special rules (ie non IC rules).

Refering to joining and leaving the rules state
#1 joining a unit is only possible in the IC own movement phase.
#2 Leaving too is only possible in movement, a clarification points out that an IC may not duck out of the unit once assaults are launched.
#3 An IC may not join/leave a unit while it is falling back, he must wait untill it is regrouped.
#4 An IC may not leave a pinned unit untill it is no longer pinned.

Nothing there about an IC automatically leaving a unit if said unit is wiped.

On p51 the specific rules for IC are listed, In characters as leaders it actually states that characters never need to take last man standing tests, this would be a completely redundant statement unless this includes being the last man in a unit as a character starts the game as a unit of one and thus by the last man standing rules is exempt of the rule.

Retinues is then covered, the only difference between a unit joined by an IC and a retinue seems to be that while the retinue is still alive the IC may not leave it. That is it.
Using a reference to the dark eldar codex is amasing, the dark eldar codex is an old out of date codex written for 3rd edition, it is still viable to use only as GW has not yet made a new one.
The DH codex reference is even worse, DH's have very special and all but unique rules for their IC's, bringing them in as the template for rules even if they were 4th edition rules... well that would be like stating that all marine veterans get powerweapons as it states in the gray knights...
I sugest you stop looking for evidence in out dated and very special rules and confine yourself to the codex spacemarines and the ones that came after as they are the ones written specifically for 4th edition, yes the IG codex may work as it was written with the 4th edition in mind but I would not encourage that as the IG has a rather different aproach to characters than other codexes.

In 3rd edition, wich the DE codex was written for, retinues and IC's worked differntly. In it an IC being the last surviving member of a unit would infact instantly revert to an IC, additionally an IC joined by a retinue would actually count as part of that retinue even in the CC phase.
This has all been changed in the 4th edition.

You may actually want to make sure you are reading the 4th edition rulebook.

The next part is shooting
The only real special rule an IC has here is that you may not target a lone IC if he is not the closest model to the shooting unit or if he is joined into a unit.

As our example has the IC joined and the rules for leaving a unit are clear I see no problem here.
The unit may be wiped but he does not fulfill the requirements for leaving the unbit and there are no rules stating he instantly reverts, the only possible conclution is that he now is the sole member of the unit that was wiped and thus has no IC shot at special rules.

Likewise an IC does follow some special rules when in the assault phase however as the issue we are discussing takes place in the shooting phase this is not really relevant but all the same...
Thus...
If the unit joined charges into CC the IC must charge too, they may not chicken out.
Additionally IC's count as a separate unit in CC (and only in CC as this is an exeption to the normal gameplay) he has his own
engagement zone and can only kill or be killed by models in that zone however if the unit he is in charged a unit he can not reach he will still be considered locked as he is part of the unit but will not be able to fight even if he is in BtB with a model in BtB with the enemy, the IC must himself be in BtB with the enemy to fight.

Thus lets sum upp, what are the special IC rules outside of a unit:
He may not be targeted unless he is the closest unit to the shooter.

And if he has joined:
The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model in the unit.
He may only leave in the movement phase.
May not leave if the unit is falling back.
May not leave if the unit is pinned.
Special rules do not confer from the IC to the unit or vice verse unless specifically stated.
There are some cases when a character or unit looses a special rule due to the IC joining.
A unit may use the IC Ld value if it is superior to the units and do not take last man standing tests (telling that thise two are bunched together in the same paragraph named "Characters as Leaders").
May not leave a Retinue while they are still alive.
In CC the IC counts as a unit of its own and fights as per the multiple combats rules.
If the unit the character is in is locked in CC then the IC is considered to be locked too.

Thus over 95% of the rules for IC actually are rules for an IC joined into a unit, a single rules effect deals with a lone one, its a good one but its still just one.

There is also the issue of any rule that states that an IC gets to leave a unit in any phase other than his own movement, there are no exceptions listed for the unit being wiped, there is however the cryptic LMS reference in the leader section, definently malplaced and unneccesary if not refering to an IC being the last model in a wiped unit but Ill leave that one for someone else to sort out.

Now then please, where are thise rules you keep talking about but do not specify

Fester, for one, if you're not going to actually *read* my posts, I'm not going to waste time responding to yours anymore.

Secondly, you've completely missed the point. None of what you said invalidates the fact that "independent characters fight as a unit in their own right," and that they "become part of a joined unit," but that this doesn't negate the fact that they are still a unit in their own right, and should be considered as such as soon as the unit they joined is left or destroyed. My reference to assault gives weight to my argument, because in assault characters are specifically described as fighting on their own; this is because they never actually lose their IC status. Show me where it says they do.

Your whole justification of "not having to take man-alone tests" could equally be used to support this viewpoint, because he is an IC if he's the only remaining member of a unit that was wiped. Hence, no man alone, since he's not actually the last man in said unit, he was only joined to it.

RAW is a funny thing.

EDIT: To clarify, no, I'm not arguing that ICs are immune to pinning unless they're fearless and the squad they were with was completely destroyed, and didn't have fearless. This was an example. Suffice it to say, I think that everything points to ICs no longer counting as "part of" a joined unit that was destroyed, and this happens as soon as said unit is destroyed; they don't have to wait to "leave" the unit, because they are still their own unit, and obviously no longer "part" of another.

Ok as a last atempt to get some direct answers out of you.

I have a unit of 5 SM's, I join in an IC to this unit. Lets call it U.A

You have 3 units, Lets call them U.1-3.

I have a second small scout (U.B) unit closer between U.A and all three units U.1-3.

In the movement phase you move U.1 into charge range of U.A, U.B is still closer to U.1 than U.A but there is a clear LOS to U.A.
U.2-3 both move to within range of both U.A and U.B, both have U.B closer.

In the shooting you start with U.1 targeting U.A, you make the targeting priority test buy cause no wounds.
Not having been able to soften upp U.A with U.1's shooting you decide to use U.3 on them aswell, you again succede with your target priority test and manage to kill all 5 SM's in U.A leaving the IC on his own.

Now the question is:
#1: May U.2 shoot at U.A?
#2: Is U.1 allowed to charge U.A in the assault phase?
#3:At the end of shooting does U.A have to take a Ld test due to suffering 25% shooting casualties to the unit and if so does it get -1 for being under 50% strength?
#4: If a moral test is rolled and U.A falls back when can he try to regroup?
#5: If U.3 scored 6 Ap1 wounds would the 6th transfer to the IC or is he considered to be in a different unit?
#6: Can you place torrent of fire rule hit on an IC that have joined a unit?
#7: If one of the SM's were killed by a pinning weapon, will he have to test for pinning?
#8: If the IC is fearless will he still have to test?
#9: At exactly wich point will the IC leave the unit?

As you seem very unwilling to anchor your opinions in actual rules I will not demand you make any rules references to Q1-8 however in order to be taken seriously you will have to make clear rules references as to where and what the rules state about Q9.

If you blather on as a reply to this post I will simply ignore you from this point on.

Please note, I make no claims in this post, I just want to actually find out what you are trying to say and see if there is any merit to any of your opinions, thus far I havent seen any relevent rules references, I have read your posts several times just to make sure I havent gone partially blind but as far as I can see you have hinged your view on what is written in two outdated but not yet replaced codexes, codexes I may add the rules state are not to be followed if in conflict with the core BGB.

fester wrote:Please note, I make no claims in this post

Ahem...except for that little bit where I apparently have failed to use "any relevent[sic] rules references," despite clearly quoting directly from the BGB on several occasions, which, if you actually own the BGB and have been checking it during the course of this discussion, you might have recognized I was doing.

Because you evidently have gone "partially blind" I'll even be real helpful and point them out:

colonelellios wrote:"'part of' a joined unit" and "independent characters fight as a unit in their own right," and "become part of a joined unit," and "P. 50, specifically the section about ICs joining and leaving other units, doesn't actually ever strip ICs of their special status; in fact, they continue to fight as their own unit, but rather a bunch of extra rules stipulations are added in about how an IC joined to another unit actually works."

There's more, but I got tired of regurgitating my own words to you.

I really have no interest whatsoever in responding to you anymore; despite your claims to the contrary I've shown that you've completely failed to read my post or have knowingly engaged in libel against my argument to try and invalidate it. It's very evident that few of you ever plan on reading...and I mean truly reading...what I say, and that you also refuse to read the relevant rules, in context and contiguously, in applying them to this or any other debate. In the end, it doesn't matter what I say, based on the RAW or not.

That said, I'll still summarize my view solely to prove that I am correct.

All of this from p.50-1.

-Characters are their own unit.
-Characters have a bunch of special rules dealing with how to treat them when joined to another unit, including counting as "part of" that unit for the purposes of shooting.
-A character cannot be "part of" a nonexistent unit.
-If a single shooting event destroys a unit that a character is attached to, then any and all effects of that shooting event resolve, as per normal, for the character at the end of the shooting phase, or as otherwise specified in weapon special rules. (so the shooting event that destroys a joined squad causes pinning or morale effects to take place on the IC, who was "part of" that unit at the time of the event that triggered the morale rules and is therefore subject to their effects, regardless of his status at the end of the phase)
-As soon as a joined squad is destroyed, the IC is once again a single model and therefore the normal rules for "characters that are not part of a unit" kick in, because no unit exists.
-Any further shooting and morale effects apply to the character as per normal
-The squad that caused the wipe out event, and any other squad that shot at the IC and his buddies before the unit the IC joined to was wiped out, can still declare a charge, if able, against the lone IC because he was a "part of" the unit that the attackers shot at at the time.

I guess our discussion is over then.

End.