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Grotsnik wrote:

insaniak wrote:Sitting under something is not the same as occupying the same space as something.

You are kidding, right??
You can't move under a skimmer to start with. As per the rule book FAQ you use the hull of the skimmer not the base to measure distances for shooting & thus establish the "size" of the vehicle.

I dont have my BGB with me, as I am at work, but I don't recall that being stated explicitly. Is there a direct quote that states that?

unfortunately i do not have a direct quote but I can confirm that when determining the size of a vehicle you measure to it's hull.

An easy example, when measuring to fire at a Monolith do you measure to the small skimmer base it's supplied with or do you measure to the hull?

fester wrote:Does tis meen that you only have to take into consideration the actual base of a skimmer when moving past it or do you have to consider the whole model?

As per the rulebook FAQ, you ignore the base of the skimmer when measuring. Measurement to and from non-walker vehicles is to the hull, not the base.

You are kidding, right??

No. Put one hand on top of your other hand. Are they occupying the same space?

You can't move under a skimmer to start with.

That depends entirely on the height of the flight base.

Since measurement is to the hull of the vehicle, if the skimmer is on a tall enough flight stand you in fact can move underneath it.

You measure the distance between models by measuring from base edge to base edge. Or base edge to hull where a vehicle is involved.

So as long as the hull of the vehicle is more than an inch and a quarter above the table, there is absolutely nothing that would prevent a model from moving underneath it.

Or, more precisely, the regular movement rules, combined with the FAQ that tells us to ignore the flight base, allow you to move underneath it, and there is no rule specific to skimmers that changes the regular rules.


The rules shouldn't rely on the height of the stick you mount your model on... but as the rules currently stand, that's how it works.

OP here. my freind who tried the fish of fury against me obviously did not fully understand the tactic. we have talked and he had read it online and was trying to replicate what he had read about. he WAS confused. now hes got it, of that i am sure. but it also brings me to a second tactic that he and other tau players use. they remove their flying bases sometimes so that they have better cover etc. IMHO a model should never transform during the game. having models that gain and loose hight seems kinda junk to me. what do you all think.

There are no rules that allow you to modify a model in the middle of the game.

Anyone wants to try removing bases when you're vehicle isn't immobilized or dead will get stared at until they fix their mistake.

A model with many articulated parts could be of variable configuration on the battlefield without generating a rules issue.

For example, we allow turrets and sponsons to move freely.

If one were to make a full-articulated Sentinel, what would be the issues with making it taller or shorter as desired?

So, the stand you glue in and attach to the base is 'blah blah of blah blah configuration' how, exactly?

Having Defilers that are custom built and 'stand' is a game issue because it blocks LOS to say greater demons, demon princes, etc that normally would not be blocked.

That depends entirely on the height of the flight base.

Since measurement is to the hull of the vehicle, if the skimmer is on a tall enough flight stand you in fact can move underneath it.

You measure the distance between models by measuring from base edge to base edge. Or base edge to hull where a vehicle is involved.

So as long as the hull of the vehicle is more than an inch and a quarter above the table, there is absolutely nothing that would prevent a model from moving underneath it.

Or, more precisely, the regular movement rules, combined with the FAQ that tells us to ignore the flight base, allow you to move underneath it, and there is no rule specific to skimmers that changes the regular rules.


The rules shouldn't rely on the height of the stick you mount your model on... but as the rules currently stand, that's how it works.

I would love to see you actually try doing that at any tournament. You would get laughed out of the place.

I wouldn't do it in a tournament (assuming I bothered to actually enter one), because I don't actually play that way.

But how I choose to play it has no bearing on the actual rules, which are woefully incomplete where skimmers are concerned.

I believe the "removing the flight stand" tactic may be a hold over from the old days of "Landing gear", where a Tau skimmer could "Land" and be on the ground for a turn.

Unfortunately, that was in 3rd and the old codex, because now in 4th ed, Tau do not have the option to equip their vehicles with "Landing Gear" and Skimmers never block line of sight unless they are destroyed.

Basically, you can always shoot past a the Devilfish to get to the gooey fire warriors, but in most cases you will have to take a LD test to fire past the Devilfish. The Fish of Fury tactic is mainly to deploy the Firewarriors into rapid fire range, but prevent the enemy from assaulting you the following turn, so that you can then fire at them again, or mount back up and fly away.

@OP
This is something that I could see happening in 3rd Edition but not in 4th. In 4th edition GW was kind enough to define area terrain Heights/Levels of models. A Vehicle, building, monstrous creature are all Level 3 for example. I find it helpful before playing a game that defining these "levels" to be very useful in avoiding any IMHO dumb arguments. Try it when you are playing with your friend, vehicles are all level 3, these hills are level 2, these are level 1, this is area terrain, etc. You will find this in the very beginning of the BGB.

@Insaniak & Grotsnik
There WAS a rule where skimmers/jetbikes could not end their movement over troops in 3rd edition if I'm remembering correctly.

@whitedragon
they still have the landing gear rule
it's dumb as SMF is much better than the benefit one would get from landing an AV13 vehicle and blocking LOS.

JohnHwangDD wrote:A model with many articulated parts could be of variable configuration on the battlefield without generating a rules issue.

For example, we allow turrets and sponsons to move freely.

If one were to make a full-articulated Sentinel, what would be the issues with making it taller or shorter as desired?

But unlike the case of removing the base to drop the height of the skimmer, I don't think moving sponsons or turrets changes anything about the model as far as the rules are concerned. A sponson has the same fire arc according to the rules whether you move the model or not.

paidinfull wrote:In 4th edition GW was kind enough to define area terrain Heights/Levels of models.

...which only applies when LOS passes into or through Area Terrain or close combats.


Dropping off the flight stand does make the model easier to hide behind non-area terrain, which uses true LOS instead of the size categories to determine whether or not you can see over it.

true i hadn't been considering Non-Area terrain.

paidinfull wrote:@whitedragon
they still have the landing gear rule
it's dumb as SMF is much better than the benefit one would get from landing an AV13 vehicle and blocking LOS.

Really, hmm. My crisis suits and stealths have loved jumping behind a parked pathfinder devilfish. Great way to get a good JSJ way station. AV12/11 can ignore most small arms fire. If they want to remove it, it take actual AT which I'm sure they would rather have shooting at my Hammerheads or Broadsides.

Landing gear is a really cool ability in an army with nothing but skimmers.

hm, that's not a bad idea - I feel kinda silly for never considering that use of a fish before. If it's in a good place for you, it doesn't even matter if it gets destroyed (unless it explodes) cause it's still there blocking LOS.

I might have to put some landing gear on the fish and try it out.

Thanks

Devilfish and Hammerheads and skyray come with landing gear from what i recall

@Jayden
I could see doing this with a dumbfish, but not necessarily a warfish. I don't see that as being efficient. To each their own, but I normally find suitable terrain rather than needing to make my own. Not sure about you but my devilfish get shot at a lot by AT, giving them pen vs glance isn't something I'm inclined to do.

Well at some tourniments terrain can be hard to come by. So its nice to be able to provide your own. With the rumored 5th ed. A parked devilfish by some terrain will get a nice cover save. The suits can then use the fish to block the LOS, even if that same terrain doesn't.

As for the issue of warfish vs dumbfish, all my devilfish are warfishes, so it really depends on what is needed at that particular time.

Adding a Disruption Pod to each of your blocking tanks will be the icing on the cake.