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No guarantees, of course, but the so-called 5th edition pdf suggests that in the next edition, deep strike will be clarified so that it affects only the movement phase; fleeting (and running) after deep striking will clearly be allowed.

So there will only be two months or so where this confusion will exist. Similarly, daemonettes are going to have the much nastier current version of rending for two months until the 5th edition tones it down.

If I manage to wrangle my chaos daemonettes into a new daemon force in those two months, I am planning to suggest to my opponents that we play with the toned down rending, and if they question fleeting-after-deep-striking, the 5th edition version of deep strike as well. If they refuse, they refuse.. but it seems silly to have everyone acclimate to a version of daemonettes that will be archaic quite soon.

Similarly, it seems unnecessary to debate this topic so hotly when everything will be resolved in the next few months as well, and we have a pretty good idea what it will be..

Stelek:

TC, who cares if you think it's stupid BS? It's the way the rules are worded poorly that matters, not you or your interpretation.

You seem to think other people care a great deal about what you think.

I've provided an exact quote which supports my interpretation (in fact, it hardly requires interpretation: "they can move" vs "may not move"--yet somehow, according to you, "move" means a different thing in each of the two phrases?). All you've done is say "nyeah nyeah nyeah, 'tain't so." Put up or shut up.

Ah I see what he (and you) were getting at now, Ghaz.

5th will indeed solve this problem.

Rbb, guess I got a question for ya:

After deep striking your hawks, do you remove them the same turn? I don't think it's funny, but it is legal as written.

Just curious if that's ok with you but fleeting isn't.

I did put up, TC. You seem to think this, which frankly ain't how it is (never has been, and never will be):

Movement is movement.

When the reality is:

There's movement in the movement phase.
There's movement in the shooting phase.
There's movement in the assault phase.
There's even movement in the pre-game phase.

All have special exceptions to the primary movement rules, which you seem to know but also seem to be unable to grasp the fine distinction of movement is movement only in the movement phase.

Which is fine. The studio recognizes your need for clarity, and has expressly made this clear in 5th edition.

Now if you take another game that has these same precepts, like say Flames of War, you'd be laughed at for stupid BS like this.

At least 40K will soon enter the world of the written-almost-well, instead of written-in-a-drunken-haze.

Stelek wrote:I did put up, TC. You seem to think this, which frankly ain't how it is (never has been, and never will be):

Movement is movement.

When the reality is:

There's movement in the movement phase.
There's movement in the shooting phase.
There's movement in the assault phase.
There's even movement in the pre-game phase.

All have special exceptions to the primary movement rules, which you seem to know but also seem to be unable to grasp the fine distinction of movement is movement only in the movement phase.

Which is fine. The studio recognizes your need for clarity, and has expressly made this clear in 5th edition.

Now if you take another game that has these same precepts, like say Flames of War, you'd be laughed at for stupid BS like this.

At least 40K will soon enter the world of the written-almost-well, instead of written-in-a-drunken-haze.

It is posts like this that make me really scratch my head about how you can condemn the Adepticon FAQ for "meddling" with the RAW when it is perfectly clear that you routinely break the RAW when you determine that it doesn't match your notions of what you think the rules should say.

I am absolutely not singling you out, as every single gamer (myself included) whether they believe it or not routinely does the same thing.

But the fact is,

Assault movement is movement.
Fleet movement is movement.
Pre-game movement is movement.


Not only do all these moves use the word "move" in their rules to describe them, but the physical act of moving models from one place on the table to another is, by definition "movement".


If a rule says that a model may not move for a turn, then it isn't allowed to move, period.

The fact that you have made a distinction in your mind that a rule such as this would apply only to movement done in the movement phase is a distinction that is not found in the printed word.

I don't think it would be a horrible way to play that units can fleet after deepstriking, but it absolutely is not something allowed by the RAW and frankly I don't understand how you can just assume that everyone should come to the same conclusion that you did (that only movement in the movement phase counts as "moving") when it is not something supported by the rules.

Stelek, I don't even care if it's "movement" or not. Maybe you can "move" something and have it not be "movement"--it doesn't matter. Neither rule even uses the term. Fleet says you can "move" instead of shooting. DS says you may not "move" the turn you DS. Now if you want to argue that these two "moves" aren't referring to the same thing, go ahead and make your case, but you haven't done it yet.

When you Deep Strike, you cannot move or assault that turn, correct?

So, that means you can shoot. And in the case of models with Fleet, they are allowed to run instead of shoot. Therefore, they can fleet after Deep Striking.

They aren't allowed to "run." They are allowed to "move." Now, let's try this again: what is the exact word that the DS rules use to state what you may not do the turn you DS? Oh, that's right: "move."

Well, call me more privy than you to what was intended.

Thankfully, in the playtesting of 5th I've routinely said 'put your freaking intentions onto paper' and it appears with the other testers all saying the same thing the studio has 'gotten' it, and what's RAI now will be RAW in 5th.

What you consider 'absolute' I find laughable. GW making 'absolute' rules? Yeah, right.

Well, call me more privy than you to what was intended.

Thankfully, in the playtesting of 5th I've routinely said 'put your freaking intentions onto paper'

Good on you, but it still has no bearing on the question. Did GW mean for DSers to be able to Fleet? Sure, I can buy that easily. Do the current 4th ed rules allow you to do that? No, they do not. "Move" = "move."

Yes, they do. You can keep shouting they don't to the last breath for all I care, TC.

I'm just hoping to get an actual argument out of you, Stelek. You know, something with true premises and a conclusion that follows from them? It'll be a historic moment.

I'm not only being sarcastic, by the way. If you have a good argument for why "move" means different things in the two rules I quoted, let's hear it.

I already made my points.

You believe you've refuted them.

I don't.

Are we done now?

For someone who complains about the Adepticon FAQ not following the RAW, you have a distinct lack of an idea what the RAW actually is.

Boy I sure hear that alot these days.

If only it were true!

Point of order: Boss Zagstruk's Vulcha Boyz cannot Waaagh! as they are classified as Jump Infantry. Only Infantry units, with the specific exceptions of Gretchin, can benefit from Waaagh! allowing them to use Fleet.

However, Stormboyz have a rule that allows them to add 1D6" to their move or fall back distance (with the provision of sustaining a casualty on a roll of 1), that resembles Fleet. They should not be confused.

Stelek wrote:Ah I see what he (and you) were getting at now, Ghaz.

5th will indeed solve this problem.

Rbb, guess I got a question for ya:

After deep striking your hawks, do you remove them the same turn? I don't think it's funny, but it is legal as written.

Just curious if that's ok with you but fleeting isn't.

I don't use hawks, that was just the only example that came to mind. Someone on warseer said they read the daemon codex and daemons deep strike, not summon like the chaos codex. Since it's written for 5th, I hope the new rules will clear it up. Not holding my breath, though.

Isn't it silly to argue about something that the official rules have not been released yet? You can't really say one way of another what is right until then. To me this is all about gaining an advantage in a very dark area of the rules. Good gaming etiquette says don't DS and FoF until we know for sure.

G

I think the question is moreso what the rules say right now. It's important to make the distinction between what the rules say, how people play, and what the rules might say in a new edition. After all, what the rules say and how people play the game need not be the same thing, and what the rules say now may not be what they say when they change with the advent of a new edition.

Stelek wrote:I already made my points.

Yeah, sure... but since this is a rules discussion, you need to back those points up with actual rules.

'Because Stelek says so' is not widely accepted dispute resolution.

Seamus O'Shank wrote:When you Deep Strike, you cannot move or assault that turn, correct?

So, that means you can shoot. And in the case of models with Fleet, they are allowed to run instead of shoot. Therefore, they can fleet after Deep Striking.

Of course you can choose to use Fleet instead of shooting. You just won't be able to move anywhere, since that would break the DS rule of not being able to move.

Yeah because they are laughing there ass off for two reasons. For starters you are using Hawks at all and secondly they have a template in their hand.

Hopefully the new rulebook will be well written so we'll know how the game is supposed to be played.

And I don't think the playtester made that up about what their Studio contacts said.

Whoever is playing the Daemon codex now should just be happy that he/she has friends that will let him/her field it.

G

Stelek wrote:Boy I sure hear that alot these days.

If only it were true!

You hear it a lot because it is true. In many threads your arguments simply end up with you saying you are right and everyone else is wrong. You cannot argue for doggie do do and it seems plainly obvious you mix RAI and RAW as and when the mood suits you.

I really don't see how you can even start to argue may not move after DS. May not move. mmmh May not move. Let me think ... may not move. I know, I will move my models in the shooting phase.

Do that in a game with me and I will insert your sharpest pointiest model in your left nostril and then stamp on all you moving when they damn well shouldn't coz they DS models and grind them into dust whilst screaming "fleet is movement you ahole ... its f'ing movement ... MOVEMENT ... F'ING MOVEMENT .. I hate you and even miniscle part of your inbred slow DNA ... I hope your mother tells you you are adopted because you were ugly and unloved!".

OK, maybe not. Just a polite cough, raised eyebrow and a "mmh are you sure about that" but inside please see above for my true feelings.

Seamus O'Shank wrote:When you Deep Strike, you cannot move or assault that turn, correct?

So, that means you can shoot. And in the case of models with Fleet, they are allowed to run instead of shoot. Therefore, they can fleet after Deep Striking.

It doesn't matter what it is done in place of. It is movement and you can't move. It doesn't matter if you can shoot and it doesn't matter if Fleet is movement done instead of shooting. If you can't move then you can't move, even if you can shoot.

Ghaz wrote:

Seamus O'Shank wrote:When you Deep Strike, you cannot move or assault that turn, correct?

So, that means you can shoot. And in the case of models with Fleet, they are allowed to run instead of shoot. Therefore, they can fleet after Deep Striking.

It doesn't matter what it is done in place of. It is movement and you can't move. It doesn't matter if you can shoot and it doesn't matter if Fleet is movement done instead of shooting. If you can't move then you can't move, even if you can shoot.

Agreed. By fleeting you are breaking the no move rule so the only option you have is to shoot. If you don't have a shoot ability you can do nothing. The aim is to break no rules unless there is a specific wording that allows you to break a rule. Fleet doesn't have an exception so you cannot do it if you DS.

I am always amazed how when this question pops up it always goes on for 3-4 pages until it is locked.

Great. Let's lock it now then.

Enough idiots have chimed in to warrant closure anyway.

Since Stelek is incapable of offering cogent arguments to support positions that he agrees with, I thought I might step in so the discussion in this thread can be continued in a constructive manner.

It seems to me that it is true that it is the case in the 4th edition rules that not all uses of the term "move" (or "movement" or whatever) mean the same thing. Whether this problem is fixed in the 5th edition is material to whether it exists in the 4th edition. In the 4th edition not all instances of "move" are equal.

As an example of this, I would like recall the example of the Rokkit Pack rule that I cited above. In that rule it is specified that the unit uses the rule whenever it is about to "move or fall back". When falling back, a unit must move through a corridor defined by its outermost models. It is does not move in the first sense (move), but it does move in the second sense (fall back).

I also find it interesting that in the Deep Strike rules it says that:

Deep Strike wrote:Troops arriving via Deep Strike may not move or assault on the turn they arrive. They may shoot as normal, but count as having moved.

This sentence refers to all the things you can do in a turn of ordinary Warhammer 40k: You can move, in the Movement Phase, shoot in the Shooting Phase, and assault in the Assault Phase. But if the unit uses Deep Strike to deploy, then it cannot move in the Movement Phase and it cannot move in the Assault Phase, and counts as having moved (note the past-tense) in the Shooting Phase.

If they can shoot as normal, and do not shoot or use a psychic power that replaces shoting, then they can use their Fleet rule.

Except once again you're breaking the rule that says you can not move. It does not say that you can't move "... in the Movement phase..." but that you can't move, period. You're making an exception that is not listed.

It actually says you cannot move in the movement or assault phases.

You know, you guys bitch and moan about me not posting the rules, but why should I?

Make a coherent argument? I read the same rules you do.

They're on page 84. Have been for 5 years. Haven't changed in that time.

Stop pretending like you know the rules.

AS NORMAL. Gee, guess that means I can fleet.

Oh right, me and my big mouth, spouting off the actual rules again.