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Another preemptive question.

In the new Daemon Codex, daemonettes have fleet. Can they make a fleet move after deepstriking?

I can see both sides. You can't move after deepstriking...

But then again, this "movement" is in the shooting phase, in place of shooting. Your aloud to shoot after deepstriking and this move is taken in place of that.

What do you all think?

Of course, fleeting isn't moving it's shooting.

Eldar and Orks do it now.

So why not?

I thought so. There was just a few grumblings around the local store. I wanted to see if anyone else thought they couldn't, and if so, why not.

"In a turn in which models with [Fleet] do not shoot or use a psychic power that replaces shooting, they can move an additional blahblah in the Shooting phase"--pg 74

"Troops arriving via Deep Strike may not move or assault on the turn they arrive"--pg 84

Where is the confusion arriving from? Can a model that DSed move that turn? No. Is Fleeting movement? Yes. Figure it out.

Most LGS's and Tournament's agree with Tegeus-Cromis. If you interpret it differently definatly clear this with your opponents and game organizers before hand as most of them will be used to agreeing that you can not move in any fashion after DS'ing.

Meph

Most, meaning not GT's, right? So what if GW "interprets" their own rules one way.

Maybe T-C, you, and the group called "most" should take a look at the rules for how Boss Zagstrucks Storm Boyz work.

Is assault movement? Why, yes it is.

Can they do it anyway? Why yes they can.

Can they also Waaagh after landing? Why yes they can.

See, it's all about the non-permissive nature of the 40k rules.

Movement is defined as moving in the movement phase.

Then there are moves in other phases, but they are not called 'movement'.

I know sometimes this is difficult to grasp, but other game systems make this distinction. Flames of War is an excellent example.

I know, I know. All the hotheads are going to come on down and beat on me, and what else is new.

Deep strike IS your movement (in the movement phase).

Just like moving on a transport and disembarking IS your movement (in the movement phase).

You show me where it says you can fleet (without violating the restriction of not moving as YOU have defined it) after getting off a transport and I'll gladly agree you cannot fleet after deep striking.

Until that fine day comes where you rewrite the rulebook and publish it, you can fleet after deep striking because it's allowed in the rules.

yeah they cannot assauly unless special rules say they can like the Grazkull bomb.

Stelek has some interesting points. Based on the precedent he describes I would have to agree with him.

Some playtesters said when they told the studio guys that the daemons were getting templated to death that the studio guys said "just run". I assume that would apply to Fleet as well. Hopefully they will clarify Deepstrike in 5th edition.

Studio laughs at issues playtesters bring up.

Laugh, chuck a pint, repeat, release.

Didn't you know? lol

I say yes, but can easily see the argument against it.

Daemon summoning is different from deep strike. The chaos codex says "Once deployed, the Daemons cannot do anything else in that turn's Movement phase, but after that they are free to act as normal (they can Assault in the same turn that they enter the game)." Fleet is in the Shooting phase, which comes after Movement. So, yes, they can.

If it is in true doubt then don't. That is good gaming etiquette.

G

Rbb wrote:Daemon summoning is different from deep strike. The chaos codex says "Once deployed, the Daemons cannot do anything else in that turn's Movement phase, but after that they are free to act as normal (they can Assault in the same turn that they enter the game)." Fleet is in the Shooting phase, which comes after Movement. So, yes, they can.

Actually, demon summoning as per the new Demon codex is deep striking. There is no such thing as summoning for the pure demon list. Remember, demons under their specific codex do not follow the chaos space marine codex, they have their own rules. I'm happy to see also that the codex was written so as to mesh well with 5th edition.

Stelek, if a unit (like Zagstrukk's) has a special rule that lets them assault after DSing, then there's no issue, because assaulting is a specific form of movement, which they have been specifically allowed to perform. It would not, however, let them Fleet, because Fleeting is a different, specific form of movement, which they have not been specifically allowed to perform.

Show me, by the way, where "Movement is defined as moving in the movement phase."

Movement is defined as moving in the movement phase.

Then there are moves in other phases, but they are not called 'movement'.

Two problems with this.

First, Deep Strike doesn't even mention "movement." It says that the squad may not "move." If indeed there is a distinction as you say, then you've already refuted your own argument.

Second, if the rules for movement are only for the movement phase, then how can you move in any other phase? The assault phase is easy, since it references the rules for the movement phase. But what about things like terrain? Enemy models? Those are only restricted in the rules for the movement phase, so surely Fleeting means that you can ignore both?

No, I think the rules are quite clear here. Deep Strike says that you may not move in the turn the unit arrives. Fleet says the model may move if it doesn't shoot. Since you can't move, then you can't Fleet.

Yes, this raises the issue of Fleeting after disembarking from a vehicle. But if you really want to get RAW, then you can never move a unit after disembarking...

Why is this a question?

The Fleet rules clearly state that the models "move" and the Deep Strike rules clearly say the unit may not move the turn it arrives.


How much more clear could this possibly be?

yakface wrote:
Why is this a question?

The Fleet rules clearly state that the models "move" and the Deep Strike rules clearly say the unit may not move the turn it arrives.

How much more clear could this possibly be?

It's a question, because it's obviously not as clear as you might think. That's pretty evident by the differing opinions above.

I asked the question so I could get input from both sides and make an informed decision.

I don't think anyone, new or old user, should worry about asking a simple question after all

Fleet is not movement. It's Fleet. It happens in the Shooting Phase, not the Movement Phase.

Since Fleet is not counted as normal movement, then you should be able to Fleet after Deep Striking.

Wait - the GTs allow you to fleet after Deepstriking? I'm not familiar with their rulings but this sounds like an interesting point towards the "you can" camp.

Also, if you truly cannot fleet after DS then you shouldn't be able to out of a transport either. As I may be facing Eldar someday this is an interesting point as well!

Seamus, what does fleet let you do? It lets you "move."

What does DS say you may not do the turn you DS? "Move."

Refer back to my original comments.

Repeat.

The rule states: "Troops arriving via Deep Strike may not move or assault on the turn they arrive"--pg 84

If the word "move" meant ALL movement, then there would be no need to include "or assault" as well, since I can't imagine a situation where a Deepstriking unit could assault without physically moving the models (since you must be at least 1" away from enemies when you land your Deepstrike unit).

Therefore, you can infer that the rule does not include ALL forms of movement with the word "move", but simply moving in the movement phase.

That is my interpretation at least. I understand the alternate point of view, but I don't think it makes as much sense IMO.

EpilepticMoose wrote:If the word "move" meant ALL movement, then there would be no need to include "or assault" as well...

Unless you see it as a clarification for people who would otherwise try to claim that assaulting wasn't movement.

Fleet movement is impossible to adjudicate without either a) assuming that the normal rules for “movement” apply unless otherwise stated, or b) making up a bunch of house rules. The latter is clearly the better and intended course of action. If you don’t do this, there’s nothing stopping you from Fleeting through models, within 1” of the enemy, etc.

Fleet = movement.

Stelek, your original comments are stupid bs. I refer you to my second post--you know, the exact rules quote which showed that to fleet is indeed to move--and likewise rinse/repeat.

EpilepticMoose, redundancy is not proof of a false reading. I refer you to all the weapons/wounds/etc. for which GW felt the need to include the clause "Normal armour saves are allowed" despite the fact that normal armour saves are always allowed except where a rule states that they are ignored.

EpilepticMoose wrote:The rule states: "Troops arriving via Deep Strike may not move or assault on the turn they arrive"--pg 84

If the word "move" meant ALL movement, then there would be no need to include "or assault" as well, since I can't imagine a situation where a Deepstriking unit could assault without physically moving the models (since you must be at least 1" away from enemies when you land your Deepstrike unit).

Therefore, you can infer that the rule does not include ALL forms of movement with the word "move", but simply moving in the movement phase.

That is my interpretation at least. I understand the alternate point of view, but I don't think it makes as much sense IMO.

I agree.

Also, it says in the Dark Eldar codex under the Fleet rule, that the Fleet move is not hindered by anything. Or, more exactly "The move is not affected by difficult terrain or any other movement restrictions." That, to me, means that even if you can't move, you can still fleet. The actual Rulebook might have a different Fleet rule, but the DE Codex says the above.

The Fleet rule in Codex Dark Eldar is obsolete. It has been replaced in it's entirety with the Universal Special Rule.

Which says the same thing, so...what's the point there Ghaz?

TC, who cares if you think it's stupid BS? It's the way the rules are worded poorly that matters, not you or your interpretation.

Stelek wrote:Which says the same thing...

No, it does not say the same thing. The Universal Special Rule does not have the caveat that the Fleet move is not affected by "... any other movement restrictions..."

We're talking about a codex that isn't out yet. Hopefully, the chaos daemons codex will have the rule worded like the csm codex. I don't see why summoned daemons would get a special rule that codex daemons would not.
And I wouldn't try fleeting swooping hawks or any other unit after deep striking with my game group. I doubt they would think it was funny.