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10 Rough Riders are very hard to hide, and will be shot to bits.

The power weapon is a waste, as the remainder of the sqaud will be dead before they can swing a second time.

BYE

I have always found leman russes to more than make up for inadequate terrain to hide those guys. 10 is fine, in fact needed if you want to actually stop assults.

10 will be harder to shoot down than 6. 6 can hide better but its easier to make them run or just get rid of em. Personally I dont take the PW but I guess its not TOO bad an idea for only 5 points. If you can spare em.

smart_alex wrote:6... its easier to make them run or just get rid of em

Which is exactly the point of only using 6.

I use Rough Riders in every game that I play with IG, best counter-assault unit out there. I like to use 2 Squads of ten with lances, when I go infantry heavy and 1 squad of ten when I go tank heavy. Hellhounds definitely give the Rough Riders a run for their money, but I find Rough Riders are best used against Deep Striking Terminators, MEQ's, Eldar Aspects, and Tau Battlesuits if they happen to stray to close. In all of these situations I like the hitting power that ten Rough Riders gives you. I've experimented with fewer and much of the time they just can't land enough hits on a unit, lose the combat and flee on the first turn. Ten pretty much guarantees you won't lose the first round of combat to anyone except Init-6 and above. I've wiped out Terminators led by a Librarian, Broken the back of Death Companies, and massacred twenty Necrons led by a Necron Lord.

Ten Rough Riders aren't that hard to hide, and in my experience combat generally goes like this.

First turn Charge with 20 attacks ~10 hits, ~6-7 wounds, ~1-2 invulnerable saves if available. Assuming that it is a dedicated close combat unit, it will probably swing back and kill 2-4 Rough Riders. In the next round the Rough Riders don't do much of anything and a few more of them get killed. I don't take the Vet Sarge usually so that they have a better chance of fleeing.

ON my second squad I modeled up a Vet Sarge with a power sword, and I use him mostly because he looks cool and my rough riders need a leader.

i like 8 as a size for rough riders squads, in large part because that's how many come in a box of bret knights.

i'm pretty new at using IG units, but i've had some success with two squads deployed near enough to a shooty witch hunter inquisitor lord unit to benefit from a mandate. 25 attacks on the charge puts the hurt on most things. this also gets assassins into the list. i like assassins.

also, no power weapons for me. there is a very narrow band of possibility between it being useless because i wiped out the target and being useless because i got wiped out in round 2. even when that precarious balance is struck, a str3 power weapon just doesn't do all that much on its own anyway.

The problem with 10 is that they will gut an assaulting unit so completely that the Rough Riders will probably win during your turn (one turn later). This is a bad thing. You want to either win during their turn, or lose during their turn.

A unit of 6 ensures that you cause enough damage to an assaulting unit that regular Guardsmen can mop up the rest, and then the RR's (all 66 points of them) will die horribly during their turn, leaving that unit in the open during your shooting phase.

BYE

With that in mind, and a little off topic, do you think a unit of Allied Seraphim are better in that counter charge role than RR? A small unit that can hit and run seems like it might be slightly more controlable, not relying on winning/dying to allow shooting when convenient.

i've thought about using seraphim instead of rough riders, but i see two problems.

first they're expensive, you get two rough rider squads for an equivalent 'phim squad so the riders can cover more of the field.

second, i don't think 'phim are actually all that great without a pool of faith points to back them up.

Seraphim are good units, and with an Eviscerator they're nasty... but again it comes down the old 'more men' arguments.

66 points nets you 6 RR's. I really doubt you're going to find many units that can do what they can for the same points (Genestealers maybe...). So, 132 points gets you 12 of them, or, better, 116 nets you 6 RR's and 2 Cyclops Demo Vehicles. I'd like to see assault units survive that hitting them.

Seraphim are good units. Guard have cheaper units that do the same thing.

The other thing to remember, and this is the same reason Grey Knights are a bad idea, is that Seraphim are assault units. Guard don't need assault units. They need counter-assault units. Big difference.

BYE

Here is a question I have regarding the rough riders. I never have run them in my guard list ever. Thought about it a few times but never did. I normally run two hell hounds and 2 LR and a Basilisk in a 1500-2k game. I have run 3 Hell hounds with success as well. Is a couple of hell hounds a decent substitute for RR? They can't tie anyone up, but the HB and inferno cannon have a little more range and can tank shock those who come dedicated for CC. The only thing that you lose is the ability to knock out some MEQ / termies. But would the amount of wound account for the one turn of armor save loss?

Hellhounds can replace RR most of the time and are better other times, however, the fact is that some armies get to you no matter what, and thats why you need your RR.

what are you taking about rest of guardsmen dont mop up anything other than thier comrades blood. If you can take a win in assault then take it. Also 6 RR is a dumb idea. You'll hit six times and make 4 wounds in general. Then you get your a$$ handed to you and they all die. What a waste.

You don't understand the point of 'Counter-Assault' do you smart_alex?

You'll hit 6 times and probably kill 4-5. If 4-5 of those models are assault Marines you just made back quite a lot of points. If they're Terminators?

BYE

RR still suck if the opponent is bringing any indirect. Good luck in having them even make a run towards anything. In my experience, I have found GK termies are the best counter assault IG can buy in a game where FW unit are not allowed. They basically hang back and act as line backers. It is interesting to see your opponents be hesitant on assaulting your lines, knowing that GK termies are just moments away from counter attacking. In any other game, cyclops vehicles trump the RR in every way. Easier to hide, they don't get killed by your vehicle exploding (ever have that happen when your RR are behind a Leman Russ and it goes boom?), and if they do nothing, they only cost your army 25pts.

Capt K

CaptKaruthors: Rough Riders are on cavalry bases, making it easy to spread them out to the extent where indirect doesn't hit very many in any given shot. Add in even a 5+ cover save, and it's harder to wipe out a RR squad with whirlwinds then you think.

I perfectly understand counterassault. However than means that you are not moving. If you have to go out and compture objectives then you will lose if a unit as mobile as the RR is just sitting in the corner waiting for somone to assault your lines. When do you plan on moving them to take an objective?

smart_alex wrote:I perfectly understand counterassault. However than means that you are not moving. If you have to go out and compture objectives then you will lose if a unit as mobile as the RR is just sitting in the corner waiting for somone to assault your lines. When do you plan on moving them to take an objective?

RR's are only slightly better at claiming objectives then basic IG, so I seldom use them for objective grabbing. It's a secondary mission profile, after countercharge. I generally use footslogging HB/F, or drop elements for my objectives. The only time I use RRs for objectives is when I'm crushing the enemy with my shooting, and I simply won't need the countercharge.

I suppose once Rough Riders have done their job they can be used to claim objectives. But itsd nothing you can plan on.

I dont think its stretching the odds too much for a squadron to come out of the charge with little or no casuiaties. After all most assault marine and termie units are small.

Then what? Galloping off to contest a table quarter doenst sound too bad a plan.

RR are for counter charging and stalling the assult. If they do their job right they will die.

smart_alex wrote:I perfectly understand counterassault.

You do?

smart_alex wrote:However than means that you are not moving. If you have to go out and compture objectives then you will lose if a unit as mobile as the RR is just sitting in the corner waiting for somone to assault your lines. When do you plan on moving them to take an objective?

Nope... apparently you don't.

You need to learn that units have very specific roles, and to be effective units must concentrate on a single role for all 6 turns of the game. Units that try to do too much never work out properly, as there are very, very few units in the game that can actually multi-task.

RR's don't capture objectives. All they do is assault units, gut them, then die. That's all they do.

BYE

Multiple armies have indirect type weapons. I'm not really talking about just whirlwinds...I'm talking about all the ways an opponent has to deal with a unit that cannot be seen. Drop pods, Fury of the Ancients, Vibro cannons, smart missiles, etc. all these weapons will wreck RR with ease. Any RR lost in the shooting phase completely eliminates it's effectiveness to do any real meaningful damage to your opponent. That is why I am a strong advocate of the cyclops. It's 25pts. If it gets destroyed, it doesn't cost you a lot. These weapons are also another reason I take GK termies. Most of that crap doesn't really affect them and if they are far enough back the Shrouding can help them. Usually I keep them out of sight ready to block any assaulters from my lines.

Capt K

Polonius wrote:CaptKaruthors: Rough Riders are on cavalry bases, making it easy to spread them out to the extent where indirect doesn't hit very many in any given shot. Add in even a 5+ cover save, and it's harder to wipe out a RR squad with whirlwinds then you think.

Well, I don't have IA, so I'm not familiar with the cyclops rules. In my metagame I couldn't really use it, so I can't really comment on it's potency.

Grey Knight termies and RR's fill totally different roles: I can grab two squads of 6 RRs for the same price as a minimum GK termie squad. Throw in the fact that every plasma/lascannon/power weapon in the enemy army is going straight at the termies, providing them a target previously denied by a wall of IG, and I'm not a big fan of GK support for IG (IG support for GKs can be saucy, of course).

It's hard to deny that there are a lot of weapons that can wreck RRs: anything with a few shots and any AP will do the job. I've never been horribly worried about any of your examples, and I'll explain why:
Drop Pods: If the SM player shoots a tac squad at a RR squad rather then the plasma heavy squad, well, I still have a response to his beef. Against a fully podding army, IG can castle the good stuff in the center, and spread out the HB/f squads to push pods back. Range and LOS become problems. Against a single drop pod, well, sometimes bad stuff happens, but sometimes it don't.

Fury: Anytime I'm facing Fury rather then fear, I'm a happy guy. I'm not going to diminish the possibility of d3 wounds, but with an average of about 1 wound per turn, it's not going to rip them up too badly. the pinning is actually more of a threat, but fear is more so.

Vibro Cannons: not to reuse a bit, but any time eldar take Vibrocannons over falcons is a good day for me! Seriously though, VCs are just about as vulnerable to IG toys as the RRs they're going to try to kill.

Devilfish: Personally, I like it when the Tau bring their devilfish close to my lines. If he wants to kill a few RRs, which are overkill against nearly everything in the Tau list (and will get wiped pointwise by kroot), then good for him.

I think you're 1) overestmating how much damage those weapons cause, 2) underestimating how much the platforms for those weapons cost, 3) and I think overestmiating the prevelance of those weapons, as opposed to the far more common choices.

blasted double post.