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TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:I've had 6 rapidfiring Warriors take out a full strength Wraithlord in one round of shooting. True Story

TGA will never relinquish his position on Necrons Phasing out bottom of turn 6.

Nope. I've been playing necrons for four years with phase happening at any time. Reread the rules,. It's not about when the next turn is it about when the last WBB rolls are made. If the Necrons go first in the sixth turn there are no further WBB rolls THUS if the army is reduced to the PO number the army phases out. There is no one single check for WBB since the second edition of the rules.

Codex: Necron, page 13 wrote:
If, after making all We'll Be Back! rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% or less...it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence.

As much as I hate agree with Ghaz and it is happening way to often lately I have to admit your approach to arguing is some what different, especially as you provide the answer as to why you are wrong.

WBB happens at a specefic time, a one time event in a turn.
You look at the rules and it will tell you when that event happens.
Checking for phase out happens after WBB rolls are taking.
If you are not at the point of turn where you check WBB you cannot check for phase out.

Why are you being so obtuse?

Oh, and I also agree with Ghaz's comment about time making no difference to the argument. You've been playing it wrong for 4 years.

it'd just be easier for GW to get rid of phase out altogether for Necrons, if it causes this much argument, hopefully a new codex would solve the issues in obne way or another, because at this rate you're going to be arguing to kingdom come

fullheadofhair wrote:
As much as I hate agree with Ghaz and it is happening way to often lately I have to admit your approach to arguing is some what different, especially as you provide the answer as to why you are wrong.

WBB happens at a specefic time, a one time event in a turn.

Correct. WBB rolls happen at the start of the turn, as stated above. This is the first CONDITION required for phase out.

Checking for phase out happens after WBB rolls are taking.
If you are not at the point of turn where you check WBB you cannot check for phase out.

I think you've missed a key quote from the rules:"If...a Necron army is reduced to ..." (Codex: Necron, page 13, my emphasis). Reduced. As in destroyed. This is the second CONDITION required for phase out. It doesn't say there is only one check. The rules provide two sets of conditions for phase out, all WBB rolls have been made AND the army is reduced to 25% or less of its original number of Necron models.

The first edition rules specifically stated the exact time phase out is checked. The second edition rules state the exact CONDITION phase out is checked.

Storm Lord wrote:my bad for not looking at the Phase out rule properly, its just never happened to me yet, so I've never had to check.

Thing is though, I don't see why there should be phase out, effectivly 'we'll be back' is just 'feel no pain' that happens at a different time, and death guard don't disapear if they lose troops, why should necrons?
(I know theres a points difference, but the grenades used by Death Guard make up the difference)

The fact that a Necron's self-repair test is taken at a different time than a feel no pain test makes a huge difference. If I'm shooting at a unit with feel no pain and I fail to kill all the models in that unit, I can immediately shoot at them again (provided that I have something else that can shoot at them). Against a Necron unit, once I have damaged all the models in the unit, there's nothing else I can do. I have to wait to see who self repairs, suffer through that unit's shooting, and only then can I shoot at it again.

There are rumors that the next Necron codex will eliminate phase out and reduce we'll be back to feel no pain.

So by what Great Avatar is saying then is that a Necron Army can Phase out any phase of any players turn even if there are other turns in the game? So Necrons go first, bottom of Turn 1 I get them (miraculously) below 25% they then automatically phase out since I've met that condition!!! That makes PO even better! Get them below 25% before they can check for WBB again! Awesome!

Again, there is no evidence that a Necron army test for Phase Out at any time other than after all We'll Be Back tests have been made and there is no evidence that you check more than once.

I was being fecitious, I more than agree with you.

Jesus Ghaz, what the frak do you want? You haven't shown where in the rules a SINGLE test is done. You keep stating I haven't proven my point but provide absolutely NOTHING to support your bitch.

Example:

A Necron army has eleven Necrons left after WBB rolls. PO is ten Necrons. A res orb is not available. The army suffers one power claw wound in is thus reduced to ten Necrons without a chance for WBB thus the army phase out, per the rules: after wbb rolls the army is reduced to the phase out number.

Nothing in the rules states right after, or near after, or any language to the kind. The rules just state after wbb rolls. Not when after wbb rolls.

Nothing in the rule states more than once per turn either.
Nothing in the rule states you check for phase out in your opponents turn either.

But, by what you're saying as long as you test sometime during the GAME TURN you are abiding by the rules...

Also from what you are saying if the Necrons go first and has 50 necrons and gets reduced to 11 Necrons in the opponents Turn 1, then they lose before they even have a reason to roll for WBB.

I don't know a single Necron player that would take a bottom of Turn 1 loss under those circumstances.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Jesus Ghaz, what the frak do you want? You haven't shown where in the rules a SINGLE test is done

Yes, I have. Once you've done a Phase Out test, it's no longer 'after all We'll Be Back! tests' It's 'after you've passed your Phase Out test'. Now where do the rules state that you take a Phase Out test after you just passed a Phase Out test? Is that any clearer for you? So stop saying that you take a test after every single action in the last turn of the game if you can't provide a single shred of proof to back your claims. We've more than amply proven that you're wrong and have been playing it wrong for the last four years.

1) When does "after all WBB rolls have been made" end? It doesn't when after WBB roll just "after all WBB rolls".
2) When does "the army is reduced to 25% or less of it original number or models" end? Again, no specific time nor time duration this is suppose to last.

Neither of these are tests as much as conditions. First edition explicitly stated when to test for PO. Second edition states two conditions for phase out not a single test.

In my example, the army is reduced to 25% of the original number AFTER all WBB rolls have been made. This is what the rules state. No more, no less.

@DaIronGob:
Your example is moot unless all the models were damaged such no model can get its WBB roll as there are WBB rolls to be made.

Moot? Hardly. By your account the Necron turn 1 is the beginning of "any Necron turn" meaning you check for WBB and then Phase out (even though there is nothing to actually roll for you still have to do it).

Then by the end of the opponents turns (it IS after the "all WBB rolls" technically speaking by your own words) if the Necrons are reduced to 25% or less, again by your own words, they then phase out since you constantly check (by your own words) for phase out.

You can't have it both ways.

Yes, after all WBB rolls does end. It ends as soon as you do something else. Then it's after you tested for Phase Out, after you moved, etc. It never says AT ANY TIME after WBB rolls, does it? No. Then stop saying that it does.

I think the real problem, TGA, is that you have a very nebulous idea of what "after" means in the context of the rule.

The entire WBB and PO rules are discussed in terms of "At the beginning of the necron player's turn." We cannot merely look at individual sentences in the rules without referring to the sentences that surround them. Context is very important for complete comprehension, espcially as badly as GW rules are written.

Do the movement phase, shooting phase, and assault phase happen after the WBB roles are made? Yes, of course they do. But do the movement phase, shooting phase, or assault phase happen "at the beginning of the Necron player's turn?" Once again, of course not.

Now, I do understand where you get your interpretation; I just think that it is needlessly self-hampering (and I don't even play necrons). Your interpretation is flawed in a couple of ways if taken to it's logical extremity.

For example, in a standard six turn game, assuming no extraordinary circumstances, it would be impossible (by your interpretation) to phase out a necron army before turn 6 because "all WBB rolls" have not yet been made. Even if you're below the phase out number on turn 4 after your WBB rolls are made, you still have some rolls to make in turn 5; even though those turn 5 rolls cannot bring the necrons back over their PO number, you still haven't satisfied the condition that "all WBB rolls" have been made.

Wish I had the current codex that TGA is reading, it'd be interesting to see exactly what it says.

Not to stir the pot further, but if you read the Necron FAQ, it says that Necron Warrior units that are held in reserve (arriving via monolith) are destroyed in all monoliths have been destroyed. It then says that this may "Trigger the phase out of the on table portion of the army."

The tricky word here is "triggered." Under the conventional phase out analysis, the FAQ should have read "The destroyed warriors are included in phase out calculations." Instead, there is at least a weak implication that phase out can be triggered.

Of course, the entire construct of "after wbb rolls" would be invalidiated if TGA's analysis is accepted. Instead, the rules would simply state "if at any time the necron army is under 25% of it's Necron model count, the army phases out."

I think the crux of the rule is that Necrons only phase out after every casualty has had a chance to WBB.

Polonius wrote:Wish I had the current codex that TGA is reading, it'd be interesting to see exactly what it says.

If you have the 2004 Chapter Approved compendium (with the Defiler on the front cover) it's in there.

DaIronGob wrote:Moot? Hardly. By your account the Necron turn 1 is the beginning of "any Necron turn" meaning you check for WBB and then Phase out (even though there is nothing to actually roll for you still have to do it).

Then by the end of the opponents turns (it IS after the "all WBB rolls" technically speaking by your own words) if the Necrons are reduced to 25% or less, again by your own words, they then phase out since you constantly check (by your own words) for phase out.

You can't have it both ways.

Uh, if Necrons are down then there's more WBB rolls to be had thus all WBB rolls have not been made. Turn two goes on.

Ghaz wrote:Yes, after all WBB rolls does end. It ends as soon as you do something else. Then it's after you tested for Phase Out, after you moved, etc. It never says AT ANY TIME after WBB rolls, does it? No. Then stop saying that it does.

After WBB ends when you do something else? What kind of logic is that? Movement is after the WBB rolls. Shooting is after the WBB rolls. Assaulting is after the WBB rolls. The rules do NOT state a specific point in time just after all WBB rolls. Not immediate, not right after, not prior to, just after. After WBB rolls is a condition not a point in time.

Saldiven wrote:I think the real problem, TGA, is that you have a very nebulous idea of what "after" means in the context of the rule.

The entire WBB and PO rules are discussed in terms of "At the beginning of the necron player's turn." We cannot merely look at individual sentences in the rules without referring to the sentences that surround them. Context is very important for complete comprehension, espcially as badly as GW rules are written.

WBB is discussed in terms of the start of the turn not Phase Out. They are two separate rules with two separate entries. I agree context is important. Phase out is related to WBB rolls but not defined by it.

Do the movement phase, shooting phase, and assault phase happen after the WBB roles are made? Yes, of course they do. But do the movement phase, shooting phase, or assault phase happen "at the beginning of the Necron player's turn?" Once again, of course not.

Agreed. But this related to WBB not Phase Out.

For example, in a standard six turn game, assuming no extraordinary circumstances, it would be impossible (by your interpretation) to phase out a necron army before turn 6 because "all WBB rolls" have not yet been made. Even if you're below the phase out number on turn 4 after your WBB rolls are made, you still have some rolls to make in turn 5; even though those turn 5 rolls cannot bring the necrons back over their PO number, you still haven't satisfied the condition that "all WBB rolls" have been made.

No. The rules don't state all "potential" WBB rolls just all WBB rolls. On turn 4 after your WBB rolls are made you MIGHT have some rolls to make in turn 5. If the army is reduced to the PO number by means that denies WBB rolls (power weapons, VoD a unit of twenty Warriors off the table, etc) then, yes, the army will phase out.

How does a Necron army get reduced to the PO? The rules just state PO happens if the army is reduced to the PO number AFTER all WBB rolls.

Uh, if Necrons are down then there's more WBB rolls to be had thus all WBB rolls have not been made. Turn two goes on

Wrong. By your logic you continuously check for phase out. If the Necrons phase out at the bottom of turn 1 then all WBB rolls have been made since the game ends immediately. Game ends on the bottom of Turn 1 therefore no Turn 2. No Turn 2 then no more WBB rolls. Fits nicely in your logic therefore it has to be correct even by you.

WBB rolls that can be made are not mentioned anywhere in the rule, only WBB rolls that happen at the beginning of the Turn you are in. Future WBB rolls cannot be held into account as they may never come.

Anyway you try and spew it there is nothing that justifies nor supports your interpretation. At this point trying to explain it further to you is the definition of insanity. I am not insane.

Nothing like a good old fashioned Dakka rules beat, I mean, break down.

I like TheGreatAvatar's interpretation better as a rule. It makes more sense that PO is a condition rather than attached to a phase, but the Necron players I've encountered embrace the phase check interpretation. That certainly seems the least ambiguous way to interpret the rule as written.

Honestly, I think the intent of the rule may be as Avatar suggests. However, that's not the way it's generally being played.

I don't knock Avatar for playing by a more realistic and challenging interpretation.

DaIronGob wrote:

Uh, if Necrons are down then there's more WBB rolls to be had thus all WBB rolls have not been made. Turn two goes on

Wrong. By your logic you continuously check for phase out. If the Necrons phase out at the bottom of turn 1 then all WBB rolls have been made since the game ends immediately. Game ends on the bottom of Turn 1 therefore no Turn 2. No Turn 2 then no more WBB rolls. Fits nicely in your logic therefore it has to be correct even by you.

If a Necron is damaged it gets a WBB roll. Thus if during turn one a Necron is damaged by definition there are more WBB rolls to be made thus all WBB rolls have NOT be made.

WBB rolls that can be made are not mentioned anywhere in the rule, only WBB rolls that happen at the beginning of the Turn you are in. Future WBB rolls cannot be held into account as they may never come.

See above.

This sounds like the Bonesword catalyst thing (its permenant right?!). . .

maybe it would never trigger as I am certain those WBB rolls will be made somewhere. by someone.

"all WBB rolls" will not apply until they change the codex!!

rarrr

If a Necron is damaged it gets a WBB roll.

True, but not until the next Necron turn when you actually check for WBB.

Thus if during turn one a Necron is damaged by definition there are more WBB rolls to be made thus all WBB rolls have NOT be made.

You're adding rules now. There is nothing defining the damaged necron in the manner you describe.
Damaged necrons are not, according to the rules, "necrons needing a WBB roll". They ARE, per the Necron's dex, debris ONLY. Necrons that are reduced to 0 wounds are considered debris and have no effect on the game. Therefore your defintion is false. You can attempt to add words to the rules all you want but will get no where fast in doing so.

Then at the beginning of the NEXT necron turn they become "WBB rolls" as that is when you check for WBB.

So again, your new theory is false and has no rules support. Necrons would be able to phase out bottom of turn one the same as you claim they can do bottom of turn 6 IF that were the CORRECT way to play the rule. Unless you come up with some other new, factual information then there really isn't anymore to say on the subject.

Kirsanth-see that's another good point. Since there is nothing defining when "after all WBB rolls" occurs, then as long as someone is playing or going to play a game using a Necron army, there will always be "more WBB rolls to be made". An absolutely ridiculous interpretation but supported by GreatAvatar.

DaIronGob wrote:

If a Necron is damaged it gets a WBB roll.

True, but not until the next Necron turn when you actually check for WBB.

Thus if during turn one a Necron is damaged by definition there are more WBB rolls to be made thus all WBB rolls have NOT be made.

You're adding rules now. There is nothing defining the damaged necron in the manner you describe.
Damaged necrons are not, according to the rules, "necrons needing a WBB roll". They ARE, per the Necron's dex, debris ONLY. Necrons that are reduced to 0 wounds are considered debris and have no effect on the game. Therefore your defintion is false. You can attempt to add words to the rules all you want but will get no where fast in doing so.

No. I'm not adding any rules. As stated in the rules, damaged Necrons can be repaired at the start of the next turn. The Necrons are repaired by WBB rolls. Thus, if a Necron model is damaged, then, by definition, all WBB rolls have not been made. The Phase Out rules do not state a particular turn (be it current or next) just that all WBB rolls have been made.

As stated in the rules, damaged Necrons can be repaired at the start of the next turn

Yea you already said that, but that is NOT what the rules say. They say that you check for WBB at the beginning of a Necron player's turn. The rules do NOT say "damaged Necrons can be repaired at the start of the next turn".

Now try responding to my post and show me where you check for anything WBB related at any time other than the beginning of the Necron players turn.

No. I'm not adding any rules

Never said you were. I said you were adding words to the rules that aren't there. You are doing this in effort to twist the rule just enough to fit your bogus definition. Full stop.

Avatar, I'm having some trouble with how your analysis works in a random game length game. Let's say we're playing and it's turn 6 in a random length game. I shoot one of your necrons with a bolter. What happens?

If the necron has a WBB roll, he may remain on the table as a downed-necron, and if there is a turn 7 he'll make his WBB roll at the beginning. But what if he doesn't have a WBB roll? If he doesn't have a WBB roll, he gets removed then and there.

You see, at the point the wound is inflicted you need to know whether or not the necron has a WBB roll. It doesn't make any sense to wait until the random game length roll to find out whether the model should have been removed from the table 10 minutes ago. 40k rules apply when they happen. I can't think of other examples where application of a rule causes a player to go back and undo something that happened before.

In any case, it seems much more reasonable to say that when the necron is shot in turn 6, he has a WBB roll and so remains as a marker. But having a WBB roll and being able to make that WBB roll later on are different things, and so if there is no turn 7, the WBB rolls that are out there won't get made. But that doesn't mean there aren't WBB rolls in turn 6.

DaIronGob wrote:

As stated in the rules, damaged Necrons can be repaired at the start of the next turn

Yea you already said that, but that is NOT what the rules say. They say that you check for WBB at the beginning of a Necron player's turn. The rules do NOT say "damaged Necrons can be repaired at the start of the next turn".

Now try responding to my post and show me where you check for anything WBB related at any time other than the beginning of the Necron players turn.

Work with me. The We'll Be Back rule states damaged models are placed on their side. At the start of the Necron player's turn, damaged models may self-repair. There are all described in the We'll Be Back rule. Again, if a Necron model is damaged there are repair rolls to be made thus not all the WBB rolls have been made. Again, all this is described on page 13 of the Codex: Necron under the special rules heading WE'LL BE BACK!.

No. I'm not adding any rules

Never said you were. I said you were adding words to the rules that aren't there. You are doing this in effort to twist the rule just enough to fit your bogus definition. Full stop.

Sorry, I forgot "to the".

It should read, "You're adding to the rules"

Again, if a Necron model is damaged there are repair rolls to be made thus not all the WBB rolls have been made

No. If a Necron model is damaged it is debris. All WBB rolls have been made up to the point that you check for WBB again. Therefore at the bottom of turn 1 there are Necrons and debris. There are no "necrons needing a WBB" therefore this cannot possibly fit your grasped definition.

It's right there in the same WBB rules you are referring to.

GW rules are permissive. They do not permit you to add your own words to the rules to make them appear to validate an incorrect function, which is what you are attempting, unsuccessfully, to do. No one is buying it.

The WBB rule allows you to place damaged Necrons on their side and turn them into debris.

You then get to check for WBB IF you get to the beginning of the next Necron turn.

WBB is only checked for at the beginning of the Necron turn as permitted by the rules. The rules do not permit you to label or define anything regarding WBB in any other part of the turn

Therefore sir you are wrong and this debate has far surpassed the void of pointlessness.

You keep twisting and adding to the rules all you want, it still doesn't change the way the rule is really played, it only plays into your delusions. I notice that you have neglected to answer any of the other points invalidating your theory therefore you obviously have no real belief in your own words... you only want to argue.

Sorry DaIronGob but the WBB rule is inclusive. Damaged models, although ignored for "normal game purposes" are not ignored for the special rule "We'll Be Back" as defined by page 13 of the Codex: Necron. The WBB rule is defines that a damaged Necron can repair itself and defined how that repair works. The fact damaged Necrons are considered debris is only part of the WBB rule. Further elaboration of the WBB rule describe how the damaged Necron is repaired. This is all detailed in the same rule WE'LL BE BACK!. So, unless the rule is only valid part of the time, damaged models get a WBB roll thus if damaged models exist then, by definition, not all the WBB rolls have been made.

Just wait tilll the next Codex. They are ment to be getting rid of We'll be back and Phase out. And replacing them with no phase out and Feel no pain.