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Ok, heres the question: lets say a necron player had an army worth 1490 points and was playiong an Ork force worth 1500 points(use imagination for army lists) and the Necrons reduced the orks down to one Ork boy who passed all Ld tests (unlikely I know) and then killed the last Necron needed for phase out, making the whole Necron army Phase out, who would win?

Because the Necrons would have most Victory Points (1494) whereas the Orks would only gain 1490. So by that reconing the game should be a draw. But comon sense would suggest the Orks should win as they have 1 Ork boy left...

Any ideas?

Clearly answered on page 13 of Codex Necrons under the heading 'Phase Out'.

orks.
phase out = lose.

Only if it happens.

Nothing's stopping you from saying to yourself, "yeah, I lost because of phase out, but hey, I killed him to a man.. literally! I'll take that as a win."

Of course, the phase-out = lose rule is in place to balance out the Necrons' insane survivability. It might not always feel like a loss when Necrons phase out, but the rule is there for a reason.

The most important Phase out rule states that Phase out is checked at the start of the Necron playr's turn. They don't phase out as soon as they fall under the phase out number. Does this change things for your question?

I suggest playing orks vs necrons until you get that result. When it's just the one ork standing, ask his opinion on who won.

The Ork of course, he is now The Boss since he is the biggest and the Strongest .

my bad for not looking at the Phase out rule properly, its just never happened to me yet, so I've never had to check.

Thing is though, I don't see why there should be phase out, effectivly 'we'll be back' is just 'feel no pain' that happens at a different time, and death guard don't disapear if they lose troops, why should necrons?
(I know theres a points difference, but the grenades used by Death Guard make up the difference)

Storm Lord wrote:Because the Necrons would have most Victory Points (1494) whereas the Orks would only gain 1490. So by that reconing the game should be a draw. But comon sense would suggest the Orks should win as they have 1 Ork boy left...

Keep in mind with victory points, it is done by units. Since there is one orc left, you only get half the victory points for the unit he was part of. This will mean you have to recalculate your points there.

However all of that is a moot point since you lose if you phase out.

Oh yah, and this type of question is best posted in the "You Make The Call" forum for future refrence.

The reason that Necrons Phase Out is because they're undercosted otherwise.

Instead of paying more points and having a smaller army, they have a larger army that takes fewer casualties.

Orks win since PO grants the opponent an entire victory regardless of current state.

BTW, PO is a continuous check after all WBB have been made. Thus a Necron army CAN be phased out in turn six.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:BTW, PO is a continuous check after all WBB have been made. Thus a Necron army CAN be phased out in turn six.

No, it's not a continuous check in the final turn.

PO is made only at the beginning of the necron player's turn. Thus it is possible to be below phase out and still be on the board.

Ghaz wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:BTW, PO is a continuous check after all WBB have been made. Thus a Necron army CAN be phased out in turn six.

No, it's not a continuous check in the final turn.

I forgot to add a comment about this in my first post. If the Necron player goes first in turn six, it is not possible to phase out a Necron army in the bottom of turn 6 since there is no turn 7 to check for phase out. At the end of turn 6, all models that are down waiting to make WBB roles are counted as casualties.

Storm Lord wrote:my bad for not looking at the Phase out rule properly, its just never happened to me yet, so I've never had to check.

Thing is though, I don't see why there should be phase out, effectivly 'we'll be back' is just 'feel no pain' that happens at a different time, and death guard don't disapear if they lose troops, why should necrons?
(I know theres a points difference, but the grenades used by Death Guard make up the difference)

The 'Crons also ALL carry anti-tank (ish) guns(en mass, they eat armor). With the standard lord/orb in EVERY army they have a better FNP aswell.

in reality the gauss weapons aren't that great at anti tank, ive been in a situation where a 20 man squad rapid firing failed to do any lasting damage against a predator.

people assume they are great anti tankers, but often they do stuggle against decent vehicles.

And orbs have limited range, meaning you have to be close to the Lord to use it, which make you vulnerable to blasts in the long run

Storm Lord wrote:in reality the gauss weapons aren't that great at anti tank, ive been in a situation where a 20 man squad rapid firing failed to do any lasting damage against a predator.

people assume they are great anti tankers, but often they do stuggle against decent vehicles.

And orbs have limited range, meaning you have to be close to the Lord to use it, which make you vulnerable to blasts in the long run

And I've witnessed a squad of 10 destroy a land raider with one round of shooting. What's your point?

I've had 6 rapidfiring Warriors take out a full strength Wraithlord in one round of shooting. True Story

TGA will never relinquish his position on Necrons Phasing out bottom of turn 6.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:I've had 6 rapidfiring Warriors take out a full strength Wraithlord in one round of shooting. True Story

TGA will never relinquish his position on Necrons Phasing out bottom of turn 6.

Nope. I've been playing necrons for four years with phase happening at any time. Reread the rules,. It's not about when the next turn is it about when the last WBB rolls are made. If the Necrons go first in the sixth turn there are no further WBB rolls THUS if the army is reduced to the PO number the army phases out. There is no one single check for WBB since the second edition of the rules.

Codex: Necron, page 13 wrote:
If, after making all We'll Be Back! rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% or less...it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence.

Hmmmm, mine says it differently. Were you paraphrasing or quoting? And also on page 13, "Phase out is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after all WBB rolls have been taken." Last line of Phase Out rule.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Nope. I've been playing necrons for four years with phase happening at any time.

And then you've been playing it wrong for four years.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Reread the rules,. It's not about when the next turn is it about when the last WBB rolls are made. If the Necrons go first in the sixth turn there are no further WBB rolls THUS if the army is reduced to the PO number the army phases out. There is no one single check for WBB since the second edition of the rules.

Codex: Necron, page 13 wrote:
If, after making all We'll Be Back! rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% or less...it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence.

Which never once states that it's a continuous check. You check once after your WBB roll in the last turn just like you do in every other turn of the game. You don't check after other phases of the game just because it's the last turn. Only after making all of your WBB rolls. If they don't phase out, the game continues and it's no longer 'after making all 'We'll Be Back rolls' so you don't check for phase out. And you've never yet explained how you determine if it's the last turn of the game in random length games nor have you explained why you test every turn when your reading of the rules would only require you to test on the last turn of the game..

@don_mondo: You have a first edition version of the codex. I quoted directly from the second addition.

Ghaz wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Nope. I've been playing necrons for four years with phase happening at any time.

And then you've been playing it wrong for four years.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Reread the rules,. It's not about when the next turn is it about when the last WBB rolls are made. If the Necrons go first in the sixth turn there are no further WBB rolls THUS if the army is reduced to the PO number the army phases out. There is no one single check for WBB since the second edition of the rules.

Codex: Necron, page 13 wrote:
If, after making all We'll Be Back! rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% or less...it will disappear in an eerie fashion, leaving behind nothing of its presence.

Which never once states that it's a continuous check. You check once after your WBB roll in the last turn just like you do in every other turn of the game. You don't check after other phases of the game just because it's the last turn. Only after making all of your WBB rolls. If they don't phase out, the game continues and it's no longer 'after making all 'We'll Be Back rolls' so you don't check for phase out. And you've never yet explained how you determine if it's the last turn of the game in random length games nor have you explained why you test every turn when your reading of the rules would only require you to test on the last turn of the game..

Really? Where does it state only one check is made? Some how my second edition rules doesn't include such a statement. Mine says that once all the WBB rolls are made and the army is reduced below the PO number the army phases out. What does your's say? Please quote the rule that states only one check is made?

Still with the straw man arguments. You want us to telll you where it says to make a single check? How about you tell us you make a check every chance you can in the last tuirn of the game. The simple truth is you only make a single check in the last turn of the game after all of your 'We'll Be Back' roles have been made exactly as the rules state. You don't make any checks after any other actions. And you're still avoiding the questions I asked. How do you know it's the last turn of the game if your playing with a random game length and why are you checking for phase out early in the game if it says after ALL rolls? Either answer my questions or admit that you're wrong.

Ghaz wrote:Still with the straw man arguments. You want us to telll you where it says to make a single check? How about you tell us you make a check every chance you can in the last tuirn of the game. The simple truth is you only make a single check in the last turn of the game after all of your 'We'll Be Back' roles have been made exactly as the rules state. You don't make any checks after any other actions. And you're still avoiding the questions I asked. How do you know it's the last turn of the game if your playing with a random game length and why are you checking for phase out early in the game if it says after ALL rolls? Either answer my questions or admit that you're wrong.

So you can't show me where in the second edition it states only one check per turn is made. But I'll try and address your demands, er, questions:

1) If all WBB rolls means all for the entire game then the army never phases out until the last turn in either argument. So this is a red herring.

2) In a random length game, check for PO as normal. Continue playing if PO occurs. Check for the next turn. If no next turn, the army phases out and the necron opponent is awarded the win. Otherwise play the next turn as normal.

When was your codex printed? I know GW makes stealth changes between printings, but this would be a huge change to the way that the army plays. Mine was printed in 2002 and says pretty clearly that PO is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after WBB rolls.

So, I'm curious what your codex states, and why it would be anything other then 1) Once a turn, 2), every turn.

Again, you have NOTHING to indicate that you make more than one test. It is crystal clear in the rules. When do you make your 'We'll Be Back' rolls? from page 13 of Codex Necrons:

At the start of every Necron turn, damaged Necrons may self-repair...

And then when do you calculate Phase Out? From page 112 of the 2004 Chapter Approved Compendium:

If, after making all We'll Be Back! rolls, a Necron army is reduced to 25% or less of its original number of models... it wiil disappear in an eerie fashion...

So once again, when do you make you We'll Be Back! rolls? At the start of the Necron turn. when do you test for Phase Out? After the We'll Be Back! rolls have been made. Does it say that you make more than one test? NO. Does it say that you test at any other time other than after you're We'll Be Back! rolls? NO. So stop making up rules. Absolutely nothing says that youy take more than one test, so you don't. It never says anything about more than one test. Therefore you're the one with the straw man argument. Unless it says 'more than one' then it is ONLY ONE TEST.

Secondly, you've still failed to answer either of my questions. You have still failed to tell us how you know whether or not you know to Phase Out or not in random length games. You've still failed answer why you're assuming you make a Phase Out check in the first five turns of the game when it says you only do so after making ALL We'll Be Back tests. You seem to think that in the last turn you check constantly because you've made all of your tests for the game, then why are you making them in turn two when you still have more We'll Be Back! rolls to make later in the game. Added to that, why aren't you testing constantly on every turn of the game. After all, you've made all of your We'll Be Back rolls for that turn and since it doesn't specify that they're talking about the whole game and not just that turn then you can phase out at any time in the game in the middle of a phase, right?

@Polonius:
Several updates to the codex in the Chapter Approved 2004 which were later incorporated into later printings of the codex. I've posted the exact wording for when PO is checked in a previous post.

Ghaz wrote:Again, you have NOTHING to indicate that you make more than one test.

Well, I'll try THIS time.

If, after making all We'll Be Back! rolls

The check for WBB rolls happen at the start of the Necron player's turn and only happens at the start of the player's turn.

, a Necron army is reduced to 25% or less of its original number of models... it wiil disappear in an eerie fashion...

When can a Necron army be reduced to this value? After all the WBB rolls have been made. This can happen in several ways including moving and assaulting. Thus, an army can be reduced to below the PO number during the game. If the Necron army gets WBB rolls the army won't phase out until after the next WBB rolls. If no more WBB rolls then the army, per the above quote, will phase out since the army was reduced to the PO number.

Does it say that you make more than one test? NO.

You are correct. One test is made: one continuous test.

Does it say that you test at any other time other than after you're We'll Be Back! rolls? NO.

Actually is DOESN'T say right after the rolls it just states after the rolls have been made. I don't see anything in the rules that states a unique moment of time just a general condition of when PO can occur: when the army is reduced to the PO number after the WBB rolls have been made.

So stop making up rules. Absolutely nothing says that youy take more than one test, so you don't. It never says anything about more than one test. Therefore you're the one with the straw man argument. Unless it says 'more than one' then it is ONLY ONE TEST.

I'm not making up any rule. I'm just trying to interpret the rules as written. There is no one moment to check for PO just a condition.

Secondly, you've still failed to answer either of my questions.

From my previous post:

2) In a random length game, check for PO as normal. Continue playing if PO occurs. Check for the next turn. If no next turn, the army phases out and the necron opponent is awarded the win. Otherwise play the next turn as normal.

The problem is a misunderstanding of whether "after ALL WBB checks are made..." means at the start of every Necron turn, after all checks for that turn have been made...

Or, if it means at the end of the game, after the WBB check for every turn has been made...

The former makes a lot more sense to me.

Again, you've provided nothing to support your wild claims that you make more than one check. Again, you only check after you make the We'll Be Back! rolls, not after any other phase of the game because it's no longer 'after the We'll Be Back! rolls.