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Agree with savnock.

My opinion is the stupid thing shouldn't be in a tournament setting outside of 'apoc allowed', but that's the fault of the attendees (who had well over a month to complain) and the organizers (who should have said 'no really, no apoc').

Yak, the FAQ changes rules--so not making the distinction doesn't make sense. This isn't your fault really, but it is an unintended consequence.

Adepticon is indeed a very different beast than what most players are used to. All of the apoc stuff gives me the willies. A once a year tournament one can play their squatted list at? Yay....?

yakface wrote:We could have said that it uses the DH/WH orbital strike (which is what it previously had in its IA rules) but again, we weren't generally in the policy of making rules changes to units for the sake of game balance. That isn't what a FAQ is supposed to do for the most part.

I see your distinction, but I think it's a pretty faint grey line. I like the FAQ you assembled, applaud your effort for it (even though I disagree with you in some places), but you did make some changes for the sake of balance (like allowing ICs to join a unit offboard and ride in their transport).

I think a lot of the FW nonsense is severely underpointed for what it adds to a list. The Damocles may be the worst example of it, but there's all sorts of other junk that adds problems. I played a team a few years ago that took the 20-point sentry guns (which had some sort of advance deployment) just to force target priority tests. While legal, I found it incredibly unsporting and cheap.

I loved the event under the INAT_FAQ, it made the difference to just have an answer under so many circumstances. I only wish it were larger really, as we still had the occasional question that wasn't covered.

IA-Apoc was new on the scene during the adjustment of the FAQ, so I'm extra forgiving for the Damocles being handled how it was. My only real complaint with it is not a balance issue, but with the event rules themselves. If an entire expansion set of rules is disallowed from the event, then players should not be required to know anything about those rules to participate. The stated purpose of the FAQ is to make things smoother for the average Joe-gamer who doesn't study the FAQ to the finest detail to find that one specific unit is being allowed to break the event rules and he should now become familiar with a previously disallowed apocalypse strategic asset.

Also, if this is the biggest snafu that comes out of Adepticon this year (and it looks like it might be), then the INAT_FAQ was a huge success in my opinion.

Agreed with Moz on all points.

At no point was it said that apocalypse stuff wouldn't be used in anything except the Gladiator tournament. IIRC, formations, superheavies, gargantuans, flyers, and assets were banned from all tournaments except the Gladiator (where superheavies, gargantuans, and flyers are allowed.)

But since FW is now releaseing only Apocalypse datasheets for all units (and with a few exceptions, providing the current rules for fw units in IA:Apoc), banning apocalypse alltogether is the same as banning forgeworld. Which I can all but guarantee AdeptiCon is not going to do.

The Damocles was a special case, one that may need to be revisited in next year's FAQ. But since 40K 5 is coming out, there's not much point to revising the FAQ now...plus all the FAQ writers are still recovering.

Not to nitpick Cent, but from the Adepticon site:

The following are NOT allowed in the 40k Team Tournament:

* Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse rules
* Apocalypse Strategic Assets

Now the FAQ allowed it and that's fine. No harm, no foul, etc... But my original point about the spirit of the FAQ in this case is still valid I think.

If forgeworld sticks with the datasheet system and continues using apoc-assets for regular units, the inat council is going to have some interesting choices to make.

As the owner of these two nefarious little Damocles rascals, please let me say a few words on the matter.

1) The Fly Lords were as surprised as anyone when we discovered the callout exemption for the Damocles as we went over the FAQ line by line the day after it was released.

2) After using the little guys all day during the team tournament I can say that it is in fact a stunning piece of work for 60pts, but not for any of the reasons listed here. In all 4 games, the actual damage done by the blast (which comes in using the apocalypse barrage rules, so its somewhat unpredictable) was not a game changer. We did still lose plenty of games. The Damocles real strength is two-fold:

a) It frees a marine army fron having to use expensive characters for your HQs, giving you more options in designing an army that pushes the massed infantry or massed vehicle angle.

b) It is primarily a psychological terror weapon. Its greatest effect we discovered after the first team game is to just pull out the clover leaf template and leave it lying on the table. This in turn has the effect of really distracting an enemy and forcing them to always spread out, minimizing their ability to hide out of LoS behind cover. I think this in the end was its most powerful use.

It will be interesting to see what 5th edition brings, but like Centurian99 said, Apocalypse-datasheet-only rules is the way of te future folks. If tournaments start banning all Apocalypse stuff, its the same as banning Forgeworld.

Its also important to note that if tournament organizers have difficulty incorporating Aocalypse things into their events, this is intended. Jervis said he was purposely taking the game away from being tournament-centric and will adding more and more narrative and hobby game elements to it. It will only get harder for tourney organizers as time goes on.

Funny.... I think on game one when this SPACE BOMB was presented, we ASSUMED that the barrage was a small blast or a scatter... honestly the respect we gave it was very minimal... DOH. I will agree that it changed very little in the game... the fact is, that it really could have done ALOT with VERY little or nothing we could have done about it.

If it was AP 5 or so... It would be pointed about right I think. But killing marines and all 3+save units... Oh my!

Moz wrote:Not to nitpick Cent, but from the Adepticon site:

The following are NOT allowed in the 40k Team Tournament:

* Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse rules
* Apocalypse Strategic Assets

Now the FAQ allowed it and that's fine. No harm, no foul, etc... But my original point about the spirit of the FAQ in this case is still valid I think.

If forgeworld sticks with the datasheet system and continues using apoc-assets for regular units, the inat council is going to have some interesting choices to make.

Fair enough - you're not nitpicking. You have to remember, though, that the TT rules were written last september, before IA:Apoc came out. They probably should have been revised to be more specific (and probably will be next year).

bigred wrote:As the owner of these two nefarious little Damocles rascals, please let me say a few words on the matter.
2) After using the little guys all day during the team tournament I can say that it is in fact a stunning piece of work for 60pts, but not for any of the reasons listed here. In all 4 games, the actual damage done by the blast (which comes in using the apocalypse barrage rules, so its somewhat unpredictable) was not a game changer. We did still lose plenty of games. The Damocles real strength is two-fold:

a) It frees a marine army fron having to use expensive characters for your HQs, giving you more options in designing an army that pushes the massed infantry or massed vehicle angle.

b) It is primarily a psychological terror weapon. Its greatest effect we discovered after the first team game is to just pull out the clover leaf template and leave it lying on the table. This in turn has the effect of really distracting an enemy and forcing them to always spread out, minimizing their ability to hide out of LoS behind cover. I think this in the end was its most powerful use.

In other words, the Damocles was probably this year's "Forgeworld Terror Weapon". Every year there is one...a forgeworld unit that comes out and suprises everyone. It's usually effective for its points (a surprise for Forgeworld) which usually translates into it becoming especially feared. First it was Cyclops Demo Vehicles. Then it was Anggrath, Spined Beasts, and Giant Spawn. Then it was the Griffon with infernus shells. Last year it was meiotic spores. This year, it probably should have been the Damocles.

Stelek wrote:Adepticon is indeed a very different beast than what most players are used to. All of the apoc stuff gives me the willies. A once a year tournament one can play their squatted list at? Yay....?

Except LatD. They specifically disallowed that.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Stelek wrote:Adepticon is indeed a very different beast than what most players are used to. All of the apoc stuff gives me the willies. A once a year tournament one can play their squatted list at? Yay....?

Except LatD. They specifically disallowed that.

BYE

No sh*t? Funny, all this talk about banning apoc is banning forgeworld...like that's a bad thing.

Maybe if I order my titans now, I can have them in time for the next time I use them.

Yeah, that'll happen.

So my tetras and TX-42s should have been banned? The rules as I read them said:
* Rules and Army Lists marked as "Trial" or "Optional"
* Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse rules
* Lost and the Damned Armies
* Feral Orks
* Armored Companies
* Relictors Wargear found in US White Dwarf #280
* Apocalypse Formations
* Apocalypse Strategic Assets

However, I had to use the latest rules including IA:A. Neither of my vehicles AFAIK qualify under the restrictions listed above. I would have been happy to use IA:3 and IA 2006, but I had to use the latest rules which meant buying a book just for this tournament.

I suspect (I'm not Guard player) some Guard players could have used chimera turret variants without running afoul of the restrictions above as well.

I'm not sure how either case would mean No Apocalypse rules = No Forge World models.

In this particular case. A forgeworld regular model came saddled with Apocalypse rules (read: Orbital Bombardment Strategic Asset). So it's currently the only example that blends the boundary. Tetras and TX-42s don't have any apocalypse rules associated with them, so no questions there.

Moz: That was my thought as well. Not sure why the orbital bit was needed. The extra 10 points would be worth the reserve rerolls (and the other option which escapes me ATM) IMO, but I'm not a MEq player.

I keep seeing this thread and reading the title as having a C instead of the second E in peeker.

dietrich wrote:I keep seeing this thread and reading the title as having a C instead of the second E in peeker.

P...e...c...k...oh you cheeky boy!

Imagine what this image would be then.

Moz wrote:In this particular case. A forgeworld regular model came saddled with Apocalypse rules (read: Orbital Bombardment Strategic Asset). So it's currently the only example that blends the boundary. Tetras and TX-42s don't have any apocalypse rules associated with them, so no questions there.

IA: Apoc rewrites quite a few of the rules, actually. Besides the superheavies/gargantuans/flyers, IA: Apoc includes rules for:

Manticore
Manticore platform
Siege Dreadnought
Damocles
Big Squiggoth
Gun Wagon
Krusha Battlewagon
Looted Rhino
Grot Bomm Launcha
Firestorm
Night Spinner
Malanthrope
Stone-crusher Carnifex
Meiotic Spore
Pirahna TX-42
Giant Chaos Spawn
Spined Chaos Beast

Some have new/revised rules, some don't.

Folks were using the autocannon and TW heavy bolter turrets from forgeworld in their chimeras. We played a list that what felt like 50 chimeras with autocannon turrets. Obviously it wasn't that many

However, that is probably one of the most harmless forgeworld options out there. Seems perfectly reasonable to me that an autocannon could be a turret mount for a chimera. Frankly, I didn't even realize it was a forgeworld-only thing until after the tourney.